Choice of caliber, .45 instead of 9mm

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Hawkflyer wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

Felid`Maximus wrote:

/users/1242.html

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As for the Lincoln derringer it was (is) a .44 caliber muzzle loader.

Ferdinand was in fact shot with a .32 caliber.

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My recollection differed as to Ferdinand and my Google-fu tells me he was killed with a FN-Browning M1910, which was, according to my handy-dandy Pistols of the World reference book, manufactured in 7.65mm aka .32 acp and 9mm short aka 9mm Browning aka 9mm Kurz aka .380, and it was indeed a .380 chambered model used by Prinicp to kill the Archduke.

Edited to remove excess quoting

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Well we will have to go to dueling citations to resolve it.

Mine says 7.65x17mm, or .32 auto
I give up I cannot get the link to post correctly. Replace the" xx " in the link below with a ":"and a "P", and that will complete the link. When I post it correctly the system replace thecolonP with this -


[url=http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Gavrilo xx rincip.html]http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Gavrilo xx rincip.html

"The gun used by Princip was a Browning[/url] M 1910 semi-automatic pistol in 7.65×17mm (.32 ACP) caliber. It was recently found and recovered in the home of an Austrian Jesuit family, and is now in display at the Vienna Museum of Military History . The second bullet fired by Princip, killing Ferdinand, is stored as a museum exhibit in the Konopište Castle in the town of Konopište , Czech Republic. "

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Further investigation leads me to believe your citations correct. From: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/.32-ACP

"it was the less-expensive and lower-powered 7.65mm Browning (32 ACP) version that was used for the assassination by Gavrilo Princip. For many years, it was believed that Princip had used a 380 ACP version of the M1910. This was discovered to be an error when Princip's 32 ACP pistol was rediscovered in 2004."

My memory re: it being a .380 dates to personal and scholastic research into the assassination all several years prior to 2004, and my expectation is that my sources also relied on previous publications for information. The book I pulled out of my personal library to corroborate my .380 assertion and my initial web search is much older than 2004 as well. But 18 years ago when I last read up on the assassination I would have been right dammit :cuss: (Ok, maybe not right in a factual sense but I would have been asserting the majority historical opinion).

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deepdiver wrote:

...SNIP

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Further investigation leads me to believe your citations correct. From: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/.32-ACP

"it was the less-expensive and lower-powered 7.65mm Browning (32 ACP) version that was used for the assassination by Gavrilo Princip. For many years, it was believed that Princip had used a 380 ACP version of the M1910. This was discovered to be an error when Princip's 32 ACP pistol was rediscovered in 2004."

My memory re: it being a .380 dates to personal and scholastic research into the assassination all several years prior to 2004, and my expectation is that my sources also relied on previous publications for information. The book I pulled out of my personal library to corroborate my .380 assertion and my initial web search is much older than 2004 as well. But 18 years ago when I last read up on the assassination I would have been right dammit :cuss: (Ok, maybe not right in a factual sense but I would have been asserting the majority historical opinion).

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Well, The FBI has claimed for years that it was a .32 but I have no idea how they could have known that without the gun. Perhaps someone had access to the autopsy reports. Clearly the assassination itself predates the FBI as an investigative organization with international reach.

But I vaguely remembered seeing something about the gun turning up and my recollection was .32 auto.

You will have to excuse me if I gloat just a little with the OCDO monkey- :monkey

Regards

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Hawkflyer wrote:

You will have to excuse me if I gloat just a little with the OCDO monkey- :monkey

Regards

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Certainly. You deserve to do so, hence my attempted graciousness in defeat (with my added appreciation for updated and corrected information to add to my mental historical records).

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American Rattlesnake wrote:

AZkopper wrote:

I have yet to see a suspect go down after a center mass hit with a 45.

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Because of context, I'm pretty sure you intended to say:

I have yet to see a suspect fail to go down after a center mass hit with a 45.

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Thank you, yes.

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compmanio365 wrote:

I have seen statistics that say .22 has killed more people than any other round. Not 9mm. Doesn't mean those people died right away, probably took them a while. And there is the problem.

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you are correct.

22 caliber has kill the most people. i have no idea where anyone got 9mm. its not even close

22 and then if i had to guess 7.62x39mm then 5.56x45

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9mm has a history of not doing the job.

45acp has a history of shit canning the hell of out living things and making them dead instantly.

i have seen at least one documented case where a guy took two 45acp to the chest and lived for about 30 seconds.

there are literally hundreds of document cases of people taking multiple 9mms and either living or continuing to fight for minutes.

i dropped a 200+lb mule deer like a bag of potatoes with one 45ACP out of my 1911.

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People need to realize that dropping someone is as much psychological as it is physiological. Research indicates that MOST people will fall down if they are shot. This is mentioned in the FBI report linked elsewhere in this thread. This has nothing to do with the severity of the injury. People just THINK they should fall down if they are shot so they do.

However, there are a lot of people who apparently did not get the memo. Those people will stay on their feet and keep fighting until they are literally damaged to the point that their systems fail. Usually that means either a direct injury to computer control (the brain), or oxygen supply system (heart and lungs), which shuts down the main computer.

But it does not happen like in the movies. Any hunter or battle veteran can tell you that a large organisms will be capable of moving and fighting for a significant time after being shot. Even if the wound is a mortal one, significant time can pass before the person finally admits to themselves that they are dead and stops acting. Even a head shot cannot guarantee that the target will stop all hostile actions instantly.

AS the FBI report states. The idea is to provide the greatest edge to the defender. Clearly, a larger bullet does more actual damage than a small one. A high energy bullet would be better than a lower energy one. More penetration is better than less up to a point.

The idea is to inflict damage to the target such that it stops any hostile action. The fact is any bullet can kill or wound the target. That is what they are for. But some will be more efficient and effectivethan others, and will work faster and to greater effect.

Clearly a 6" ball driven through the center of mass and stopping 3 inches behind the target would be very effective but not very efficient. A phonograph needle fired from a necked down .50BMG cartridge MIGHT work too, but not likely. It would also travel well through the target and cause very little damage as it passed through. Not very effective or but very efficient.

So we compromise. The compromise is based on a lot of things but it settles in the range of .357 to .45 moving along at between 800-1500 FPS, and weighing in at between 110-230 grains. Other stuff works but not as well.

Based on preferences most of us pick either 9mm P, .40 S&W, or .45ACP. .44 mag is a little too much, and .32 is a little too small. Remember it is about the edge, where every little bit counts and you want it to count on your side of the scale.

You take your pick knowing full well that "your mileage may vary"

Regards

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9mm has a history of not doing the job. 45acp has a history of @#$% canning the hell of out living things and making them dead instantly. i have seen at least one documented case where a guy took two 45acp to the chest and lived for about 30 seconds. there are literally hundreds of document cases of people taking multiple 9mms and either living or continuing to fight for minutes.

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I hear this all the time, and have yet to see the documented statistics. There are "hundreds" of instances yet it seems to be backed up with only one or two anecdotal instances. In a shooting there are so many variables that a handful of instances have zero value in determining a caliber's effectiveness.

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a trebuchet is not a type of catapult since they predated catapults by a few centuries. I actually built a couple desk top size trebuchets that will easily throw a large marble across the backyard. Very fun projects. Fun to watch them work. I used #6 shot for the counterbalance. Worked great. I'll try to find the pics on my hard drive.

I became intrigued with them a few years back and built a couple after doing some research on them. Some quite interesting info on them if you yahoo or google them.

These things were at the time, called [war] engines and the designers were therefore called engineers. That concludes today's etymology lesson ;-)

I still perfer my modern day araments like a Winchester Model 70 safari in 375 H&H or my Ruger Security Six (for close in stuff).

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here is at least one. 9mm to the brain point blank and he survives.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3363442,00.html

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http://www.andhranews.net/Intl/2008/October/31/Brit-survives-close-71723.asp

Cummins, 21, shot his victim with a 9mm Cuno Melcher gun when he tried to snatch a gold chain from around his victim's neck at a house in Manchester on March 22 this year.
But thankfully Daniel's nose blocked the bullet from piercing his head and saved him, reports the Sun.An amazing X-ray shows the round lodged in the bridge bone of his hooter, which the doctor removed without any problem.

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http://mywebtimes.com/archives/ottawa/display.php?id=366136

A 34-year-old Streator man was hospitalized early Wednesday following a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.The weapon was a 9 mm handgun.
He was conscious when authorities arrived. Emergency personnel took him to St. Mary's Hospital in Streator.

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http://savannahnow.com/node/220305



Prosecutor contends Edward Charles Wilkins Jr. is a 'serial murderer'
A Savannah woman testified Tuesday she was raped and nearly killed by a man prosecutors are calling a serial murderer.
"When I looked, he had a gun pointed at me," the woman, 45, told a Chatham County Superior Court jury. "It was a 9 mm, and he didn't mind blowing my brains out."
She also told jurors she was raped and shot five times during the attack on July 15, 2000.
The woman survived her bullet wounds, at least physically.

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http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-10312008-1614231.html

class="tsBody"A Doylestown Township man confronted a woman and a police officer with a loaded gun before shooting himself in the head during a tension-packed encounter Thursday morning at his home, authorities said.
class="tsBody"Despite sustaining what police called a “very significant” gunshot wound from a 9mm Berretta pistol, Curtis J. Genner, 47, was alive in stable condition at the intensive care unit of Abington Memorial Hospital on Thursday evening.

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there are lots more, just use google :banghead:

i'm done posting them though you can look for yourself.

try "survives 9mm" then try "survives 45ACP"

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Well, here we go with another speed/small, versus large/slow argument. I'll just add this... Most firearms of the popular calibers will work just fine in a defensive situation. As others have stated, shot placement is much more important than bullet size or speed. An 80 grain .380 round in center mass is better than a 200 grain10mm round in the arm, IMO.

Just for the sake of argument, I carry a 9mm with Double Tap rounds. I have found that company to be superior to most, if not all other rounds from the common, reputable manufacturers for factory ammunition. Again, that is my opinion. But you can read for yourself the ballistics from the round I use, versus a 230 grain Hydrashok from a .45.

I also very much like a .45 and ifwas ever in a combat situation, I would feel more comfortable taking a .45 as opposed to a 9mm. No particular reason other than past combat experiences of our military gives me piece of mind.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=120

http://le.atk.com/ballistics/Ammo_Ballistics.aspx?id=571&firearm=2&bc=0.19&muzzvel=900&bulletwgt=230

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there are lots more, just use google :banghead: i'm done posting them though you can look for yourself. try "survives 9mm" then try "survives 45ACP"

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Sure I can use Google too, but I'll say it again, anecdotal "evidence" means nothing:

Gang member survives .45 to head:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=516_1208771579

Man hit by stray .45 from woods, hitting him in chest and hitting his cellphone, leaving him largely unhurt:
http://www.newstin.com/rel/us/en-010-008111755

Police K-9 survives .45, went through head and into chest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpetreZLaKU

Boyfriend shot in forehead with .45 survives:
http://www.topix.com/city/saginaw-mi/2008/05/boyfriend-shot-in-head-survives

Woman, 51, shot in face with a .45 survives:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_/ai_n16758649

If you want to make a case that one particular cartridge is better than another, show some scientific evidence and case studies. I see people say "instant death" and "knockdown power" for a handgun and laugh. I'm sure the debate will go on and on, and really what does it matter...people will pick whatever caliber they like best.

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lmao did you even watch those videos and read those links

1. gang member says 45 to the head. ok thats credible.

2. a stray 45 that could've came from a mile away hits someone in the chest on his phone and doesn't go in. that sounds normal

3. video title says dog hit in the head. if you watch the video it says the dog was hit in the mouth and went through into his chest, and you can see by the wound that it hit the dogs chest at an angle so that it wouldn't penetrate.

4. ok

5. went in the cheek and out by her eye. obviously at an angle where it would not penetrate into her head.

is this the best you have? nice...

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mrbiggles wrote:

there are literally hundreds of document cases of people taking multiple 9mms and either living or continuing to fight for minutes.

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And people ask me why I carry 2 spare mags....haha

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mrbiggles, evidently you missed the part that says "hit what you aim at".

You're bashing the 9mm because "it's a BB gun round", and when someone ponies up evidence that .45ACP isn't the NUCLEAR-HANDGUN cartridge you claim it to be, you point out that it didn't hit someone right. Which is the same reason your 9mm examples survived - they were hit without damaging critical organs.

For example, this one:

here is at least one. 9mm to the brain point blank and he survives. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3363442,00.html

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In the article, they state:

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The 9mm bullet lodged in his skull millimeters from his brain, the Pretoria News daily reported.

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If it had gone into his brain, they might've been singing a different song altogether.

This is why shot placement will always trump caliber. It's also why almost everyone recommends that you shoot what you're comfortable with using.

Although I do not take pride in mentioning it, I have dropped animals greater than 500lbs with a single 9mm round. How is that possible if the 9mm is just a pop-gun? Surely the round should have just bounced off of their skin?