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Thread: Detained at gas station

  1. #1
    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Man with Gun call. Officers surrounded my minivan.

    After that, the officers approached and told me they received a man with a gun call under his sweater - I was wearing a hoodie - and asked if I had a gun.

    My mouth was full of my Big Arby's sandwich so all I could do was look at them and nod.

    The officer then asked again if I had a gun and I was able to answer "Yes" this time. He then asked if I had a concealed handgun permit to which I answered, that my gun was not concealed. He again asked if I had a concealed carry and I restated that I did not need one because I was not concealing my gun.

    He asked if I had an ID at this point. Since I was detained - my van was blocked by the cruisers - I gave the deputy my ID. As I handed my ID, I did state "Just so we are clear, I have done nothing illegal." He paid a glance to my ID and there was a brief discussion about "running" it, but they decided there was no point since I was doing nothing illegal.

    I think there was an overreaction of even showing up. They don’t show up for every person that has beer or wine because they could be driving drunk - which is a lot more dangerous than me.

    During the encounter, they did state they have to watch this time of year to make sure no one is robbing the place. I told them I paid for this.

    I’m going to write the sheriff and let him know his deputies were professional, but I don’t think they should have been dispatched for a random call where nothing illegal is happening.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    possumboy wrote:
    >>>SNIP
    I’m going to write the sheriff and let him know his deputies were professional, but I don’t think they should have been dispatched for a random call where nothing illegal is happening.
    Were these Sheriff's Deputies or Prince William County Police?

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    You got lucky. Cops here seem to have some animus against people in fast food lots.

    -ljp

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    possumboy wrote:
    Man with Gun call. Officers surrounded my minivan.

    After that, the officers approached and told me they received a man with a gun call under his sweater - I was wearing a hoodie - and asked if I had a gun.

    My mouth was full of my Big Arby's sandwich so all I could do was look at them and nod.

    The officer then asked again if I had a gun and I was able to answer "Yes" this time. He then asked if I had a concealed handgun permit to which I answered, that my gun was not concealed. He again asked if I had a concealed carry and I restated that I did not need one because I was not concealing my gun.

    He asked if I had an ID at this point. Since I was detained - my van was blocked by the cruisers - I gave the deputy my ID. As I handed my ID, I did state "Just so we are clear, I have done nothing illegal." He paid a glance to my ID and there was a brief discussion about "running" it, but they decided there was no point since I was doing nothing illegal.

    I think there was an overreaction of even showing up. They don’t show up for every person that has beer or wine because they could be driving drunk - which is a lot more dangerous than me.

    During the encounter, they did state they have to watch this time of year to make sure no one is robbing the place. I told them I paid for this.

    I’m going to write the sheriff and let him know his deputies were professional, but I don’t think they should have been dispatched for a random call where nothing illegal is happening.
    In most jurisdictions in the NOVA area Deputies work the courtroom and serve civil process. You either got stopped by Prince William PD and/or Dumfries PD. As far as your response to the whole situation, you seem like a reasonable, level headed guy. Good job.

    Where exactly were you if you don't mind me asking? I used to live in those parts.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I might be wrong here but it would seem to me that the 911 dispatchers should be trained to ask MWAG callers how the carrier is acting. Is he just filling up his tank, getting something from the mart, then paying the cashier? Is he acting in a normal fashion? Does he appear to be threatening to others?

    Granted, police departments may be charged with erring on the side of caution, but at some point one has to wonder about the caller more than the carrier.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    I might be wrong here but it would seem to me that the 911 dispatchers should be trained to ask MWAG callers how the carrier is acting. Is he just filling up his tank, getting something from the mart, then paying the cashier? Is he acting in a normal fashion? Does he appear to be threatening to others?

    Granted, police departments may be charged with erring on the side of caution, but at some point one has to wonder about the caller more than the carrier.
    Even if somebody calls and says ,"i want the police to respond, somebody is acting suspiciously". They have to go (in the departments I have worked for anyway). I agree with you, but that is how it is.

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    possumboy wrote:
    ...SNIP
    I’m going to write the sheriff and let him know his deputies were professional, but I don’t think they should have been dispatched for a random call where nothing illegal is happening.
    Sorry to ask this again but there is some noise on the line. Setting aside the speculation by others who weren't there, were these Sheriff's deputies or PWC police? If you are not certain can you describe the car they were in?


    Despite the claims of Chief Dean and others, the Sheriff is the constitutional LE official in the county. While there is a tenuous agreement in place relating to traffic stops that changes nothing if a Sheriff's deputy is closer. So it really could be either.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    As to whether they over-reacted, it willdepend a lot on what they were told by the 911 caller.

    I recommend following the standard drill. Send a FOIA for the 911 call recording, radio traffic, in-car text messages, and dispatch log.

    Once you've got that information, then you can make an informed decision as to whether and what to write to the Chief/Sheriff.

    I respect your decision to hand over your ID when asked if you had one. You're the guy on the scene.

    However, I really take offense at police wanting ID's when there is no VA state law requiring it be carried, and no state law requiring one to even identify himself to a police officer (stop-and-identify statute), although there may be local ordinances. Especially in the OP case where they knew nothing illegal was going on fairly quickly. Having the ID run and field contact card filled out was solely in the police hands at that point.

    Please, fellas, if you are going to surrender your ID, please do so with the statement that you will comply with the demand but do not consent. Even if it is just a request, please gently get the officer to make it a demand. This way, you can also make a credible complaint about this ID nonsense. Same for requests or demands that you identify yourself verbally. Whether there is a stop-and-identify ordinance in your locality and whetherthe police really did have RAS will affect things, but that can be determined after the stop and after the FOIA recordings are reviewed.

    Remember that thepolice at Tony's lied about there not being anyID demands. They knew they don't have authority to do so. If it was so perfectly acceptable to demand ID, they wouldn't have liedthat it didn't occur.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    As to whether they over-reacted, it willdepend a lot on what they were told by the 911 caller.

    I recommend following the standard drill. Send a FOIA for the 911 call recording, radio traffic, in-car text messages, and dispatch log.

    Once you've got that information, then you can make an informed decision as to whether and what to write to the Chief/Sheriff.

    I respect your decision to hand over your ID when asked if you had one. You're the guy on the scene.

    However, I really take offense at police wanting ID's when there is no VA state law requiring it be carried, and no state law requiring one to even identify himself to a police officer (stop-and-identify statute), although there may be local ordinances. Especially in the OP case where they knew nothing illegal was going on fairly quickly. Having the ID run and field contact card filled out was solely in the police hands at that point.

    Please, fellas, if you are going to surrender your ID, please do so with the statement that you will comply with the demand but do not consent. Even if it is just a request, please gently get the officer to make it a demand. This way, you can also make a credible complaint about this ID nonsense. Same for requests or demands that you identify yourself verbally. Whether there is a stop-and-identify ordinance in your locality and whetherthe police really did have RAS will affect things, but that can be determined after the stop and after the FOIA recordings are reviewed.

    Remember that thepolice at Tony's lied about there not being anyID demands. They knew they don't have authority to do so. If it was so perfectly acceptable to demand ID, they wouldn't have liedthat it didn't occur.
    I agree with your premise, but in this case the guy was sitting in his car. Clearly th police would guess he might have a DL with him. Besides they could just take the tag number and run that.

    SO as you said I have to agree he handled it well and did what he had to do.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    possumboy wrote:
    ...SNIP
    I’m going to write the sheriff and let him know his deputies were professional, but I don’t think they should have been dispatched for a random call where nothing illegal is happening.
    Sorry to ask this again but there is some noise on the line.* Setting aside the speculation by others who weren't there, were these Sheriff's deputies or PWC police?* If you are not certain can you describe the car they were in?


    Despite the claims of Chief Dean and others, the Sheriff is the constitutional LE official in the county.* While there is a tenuous agreement in place relating to traffic stops that changes nothing if a Sheriff's deputy is closer.* So it really could be either.

    Regards



    "The Prince William County, Virginia Sheriff's Department was established in 1731 to provide law enforcement and jailers for the County. In 1970, the Board of County Supervisors established the Prince William County Police Department which assumed the primary responsibility for law enforcement."


  11. #11
    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Answering a few questions with one post...

    I was in Southwest Virginia on my way back from SC. It was in Wythe County. AFAIK Wythe County does not have a police department, only a Sheriff's department.

    I normally do not surrender ID, but there were two factors. I was being detained. All avenues of exit were blocked.

    More importantly, I was in the driver's seat of my minivan. I did not want to get into the argument about not providing ID and have the officer demand I show my driver's license. Not to get slammed for not citing, but I remember a court case where it was ruled that it was allowed since the officer saw me in the driver's seat. I will try to find the case, so don't throw flags yet.

    I have had MWAG calls in Prince William County that the dispatcher did not send out officers. The dispatchermay have agreed that I should not be carrying there, but they knew I was not doing anything illegal and did not seen officers.

  12. #12
    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Minor but important point.

    The deputyasked if he could see my ID. I did not perceive it as a demand.

    I tend to try to work with a LEO that is being polite and pushing me. Up to a point, I carry at least two **** pills with me at all time - I'm thinking about getting a bite down one in my rear tooth.

    He was professional and polite. That goes a long way with me.

    Years ago I wasthrown to the ground and zipped tied for refusal to show ID when it has been unlawfully demanded.

    I was even threaten a few weeks ago in DC for refusal to show ID.

    I'm just wondering why I get asked for ID so much...

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    Citizen wrote:
    As to whether they over-reacted, it willdepend a lot on what they were told by the 911 caller.
    This!

    While I can certainly understand why some think the ID issue is not a big deal and while I am personally torn on the issue sometimes, inclined towards the just give the ID and go on with your day to some degree, several years ago I had a personal experience wherein the LEO violated the law and my rights in several ways on this issue. I felt violated at the time and even more violated after I found OCDO, took time to research the laws here and realize that not only were my rights violated in several ways, but the LEO violated the statutory law as well.

    All that being said, I think you handled it well Possumboy. If you want to pursue the matter further, I think Citizen offered sage advice.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    nitrovic wrote:
    Really, so the Sheriff's department responds to calls for service on a daily basis?
    The police department is responsible for daily police activities and response. -

    [Snip excessive information]
    Seriously now! A simple link would have sufficed rathher than being a bandwidth pirate.

    You can make a point w/o being a jerk about it. See Mr, Huffman for link cut and paste advice.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    LOL - but naughty ChinChin, bad monkey.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Lets see. I said -"...the Sheriff is the constitutional LE official in the county."

    The Virginia Constitution in Article VII Section 4, without ever mentioning county police or other constitutional authority ANYWHERE says -

    Link - Constitution of Virginia

    Text

    Article VII

    Section 4. County and city officers.

    There shall be elected by the qualified voters of each county and city a treasurer, a sheriff, an attorney for the Commonwealth, a clerk, who shall be clerk of the court in the office of which deeds are recorded, and a commissioner of revenue. The duties and compensation of such officers shall be prescribed by general law or special act.

    Regular elections for such officers shall be held on Tuesday after the first Monday in November. Such officers shall take office on the first day of the following January unless otherwise provided by law and shall hold their respective offices for the term of four years, except that the clerk shall hold office for eight years.

    The General Assembly may provide for county or city officers or methods of their selection, including permission for two or more units of government to share the officers required by this section, without regard to the provisions of this section, either (1) by general law to become effective in any county or city when submitted to the qualified voters thereof in an election held for such purpose and approved by a majority of those voting thereon in each such county or city, or (2) by special act upon the request, made after such an election, of each county or city affected. No such law shall reduce the term of any person holding an office at the time the election is held. A county or city not required to have or to elect such officers prior to the effective date of this Constitution shall not be so required by this section.

    The General Assembly may provide by general law or special act for additional officers and for the terms of their office.


    Game, set, match

    Regards

    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    ChinChin wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    Really, so the Sheriff's department responds to calls for service on a daily basis?
    The police department is responsible for daily police activities and response. -

    [Snip excessive information]
    Seriously now! A simple link would have sufficed rathher than being a bandwidth pirate.

    You can make a point w/o being a jerk about it.* See Mr, Huffman for link cut and paste advice.

    , good point. Sorry. I changed it to a shorter version.

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    SNIP Lets see. I said -"...the Sheriff is the constitutional LE official in the county."
    Chuckle.

    I can still remember:

    "Sir, the first person in the recruit's chain of command is Series Commander 1st Lt.________.

    "Sir, the second person in the recruit's chain of command is Company Commander Capt.______"

    "Sir, the third person in the recruit's chain of command is_______"

    All the way up through the Secretary of the Navy to the President.

    I guess they don't teach that to police.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    They can show up whenever they choose to show up. You can assert your rights aswhenever you choose.

    Am I being detained? is a good question.

    Sterile open carry is legal, but sterile driving is not.


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheriff..._United_States
    In the United States, a sheriff is generally (but not always) the highest law enforcement officer of a county and commander of militia in that county. A distinct part of policing in the United States, sheriffs are usually elected. The political election of a person to serve as a police leader is an almost uniquely American tradition. (The Honorary Police of Jersey, a UK Crown Dependencies in the Channel Islands, have been elected since at least the 16th century.)[1]

    [ ... ]

    In many rural areas of the United States, particularly in the South, the sheriff has traditionally been viewed as one of a given county's most influential political office-holders.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheriff..._United_States
    In the United States, a sheriff is generally (but not always) the highest law enforcement officer of a county and commander of militia in that county. A distinct part of policing in the United States, sheriffs are usually elected. The political election of a person to serve as a police leader is an almost uniquely American tradition. (The Honorary Police of Jersey, a UK Crown Dependencies in the Channel Islands, have been elected since at least the 16th century.)[1]

    [ ... ]

    In many rural areas of the United States, particularly in the South, the sheriff has traditionally been viewed as one of a given county's most influential political office-holders.
    Deleted

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    nitrovic wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheriff..._United_States
    In the United States, a sheriff is generally (but not always) the highest law enforcement officer of a county and commander of militia in that county. A distinct part of policing in the United States, sheriffs are usually elected. The political election of a person to serve as a police leader is an almost uniquely American tradition. (The Honorary Police of Jersey, a UK Crown Dependencies in the Channel Islands, have been elected since at least the 16th century.)[1]

    [ ...]

    In many rural areas of the United States, particularly in the South, the sheriff has traditionally been viewed as one of a given county's most influential political office-holders.
    This has no bearing on the post or the area in question. In case you missed it-

    In most jurisdictions in the NOVA area Deputies work the courtroom and serve civil process. You either got stopped by Prince William PD and/or Dumfries PD.
    nitrovic I am sorry to burst your bubble but I ain't sure you read the whole thread because he clearly commented after being asked that he was stopped in Wythe County and not in Prince William County or in Dumfries.

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    You didn't burst my bubble. Sounds good. Either way I think the story sounds like the OP did the right thing.

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    .

  25. #25
    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    Citizen, Isn't your Sr. Drill Instructor the first person in your chain of command?

    Just because you have been out for 20 years is no reason to forget your chain of command while you were in Boot Camp. GET ON MY QUARTERDECK!!!!!
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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