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Detained at gas station

possumboy

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Man with Gun call. Officers surrounded my minivan.

After that, the officers approached and told me they received a man with a gun call under his sweater - I was wearing a hoodie - and asked if I had a gun.

My mouth was full of my Big Arby's sandwich so all I could do was look at them and nod.

The officer then asked again if I had a gun and I was able to answer "Yes" this time. He then asked if I had a concealed handgun permit to which I answered, that my gun was not concealed. He again asked if I had a concealed carry and I restated that I did not need one because I was not concealing my gun.

He asked if I had an ID at this point. Since I was detained - my van was blocked by the cruisers - I gave the deputy my ID. As I handed my ID, I did state "Just so we are clear, I have done nothing illegal." He paid a glance to my ID and there was a brief discussion about "running" it, but they decided there was no point since I was doing nothing illegal.

I think there was an overreaction of even showing up. They don’t show up for every person that has beer or wine because they could be driving drunk - which is a lot more dangerous than me.

During the encounter, they did state they have to watch this time of year to make sure no one is robbing the place. I told them I paid for this.

I’m going to write the sheriff and let him know his deputies were professional, but I don’t think they should have been dispatched for a random call where nothing illegal is happening.
 

Legba

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You got lucky. Cops here seem to have some animus against people in fast food lots.

-ljp
 

nitrovic

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possumboy wrote:
Man with Gun call. Officers surrounded my minivan.

After that, the officers approached and told me they received a man with a gun call under his sweater - I was wearing a hoodie - and asked if I had a gun.

My mouth was full of my Big Arby's sandwich so all I could do was look at them and nod.

The officer then asked again if I had a gun and I was able to answer "Yes" this time. He then asked if I had a concealed handgun permit to which I answered, that my gun was not concealed. He again asked if I had a concealed carry and I restated that I did not need one because I was not concealing my gun.

He asked if I had an ID at this point. Since I was detained - my van was blocked by the cruisers - I gave the deputy my ID. As I handed my ID, I did state "Just so we are clear, I have done nothing illegal." He paid a glance to my ID and there was a brief discussion about "running" it, but they decided there was no point since I was doing nothing illegal.

I think there was an overreaction of even showing up. They don’t show up for every person that has beer or wine because they could be driving drunk - which is a lot more dangerous than me.

During the encounter, they did state they have to watch this time of year to make sure no one is robbing the place. I told them I paid for this.

I’m going to write the sheriff and let him know his deputies were professional, but I don’t think they should have been dispatched for a random call where nothing illegal is happening.

In most jurisdictions in the NOVA area Deputies work the courtroom and serve civil process. You either got stopped by Prince William PD and/or Dumfries PD. As far as your response to the whole situation, you seem like a reasonable, level headed guy. Good job.

Where exactly were you if you don't mind me asking? I used to live in those parts.
 

SouthernBoy

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I might be wrong here but it would seem to me that the 911 dispatchers should be trained to ask MWAG callers how the carrier is acting. Is he just filling up his tank, getting something from the mart, then paying the cashier? Is he acting in a normal fashion? Does he appear to be threatening to others?

Granted, police departments may be charged with erring on the side of caution, but at some point one has to wonder about the caller more than the carrier.
 

nitrovic

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SouthernBoy wrote:
I might be wrong here but it would seem to me that the 911 dispatchers should be trained to ask MWAG callers how the carrier is acting. Is he just filling up his tank, getting something from the mart, then paying the cashier? Is he acting in a normal fashion? Does he appear to be threatening to others?

Granted, police departments may be charged with erring on the side of caution, but at some point one has to wonder about the caller more than the carrier.

Even if somebody calls and says ,"i want the police to respond, somebody is acting suspiciously". They have to go (in the departments I have worked for anyway). I agree with you, but that is how it is.
 

Hawkflyer

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possumboy wrote:
I’m going to write the sheriff and let him know his deputies were professional, but I don’t think they should have been dispatched for a random call where nothing illegal is happening.

Sorry to ask this again but there is some noise on the line. Setting aside the speculation by others who weren't there, were these Sheriff's deputies or PWC police? If you are not certain can you describe the car they were in?


Despite the claims of Chief Dean and others, the Sheriff is the constitutional LE official in the county. While there is a tenuous agreement in place relating to traffic stops that changes nothing if a Sheriff's deputy is closer. So it really could be either.

Regards
 

Citizen

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As to whether they over-reacted, it willdepend a lot on what they were told by the 911 caller.

I recommend following the standard drill. Send a FOIA for the 911 call recording, radio traffic, in-car text messages, and dispatch log.

Once you've got that information, then you can make an informed decision as to whether and what to write to the Chief/Sheriff.

I respect your decision to hand over your ID when asked if you had one. You're the guy on the scene.

However, I really take offense at police wanting ID's when there is no VA state law requiring it be carried, and no state law requiring one to even identify himself to a police officer (stop-and-identify statute), although there may be local ordinances. Especially in the OP case where they knew nothing illegal was going on fairly quickly. Having the ID run and field contact card filled out was solely in the police hands at that point.

Please, fellas, if you are going to surrender your ID, please do so with the statement that you will comply with the demand but do not consent. Even if it is just a request, please gently get the officer to make it a demand. This way, you can also make a credible complaint about this ID nonsense. Same for requests or demands that you identify yourself verbally. Whether there is a stop-and-identify ordinance in your locality and whetherthe police really did have RAS will affect things, but that can be determined after the stop and after the FOIA recordings are reviewed.

Remember that thepolice at Tony's lied about there not being anyID demands. They knew they don't have authority to do so. If it was so perfectly acceptable to demand ID, they wouldn't have liedthat it didn't occur.
 

Hawkflyer

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Citizen wrote:
As to whether they over-reacted, it willdepend a lot on what they were told by the 911 caller.

I recommend following the standard drill. Send a FOIA for the 911 call recording, radio traffic, in-car text messages, and dispatch log.

Once you've got that information, then you can make an informed decision as to whether and what to write to the Chief/Sheriff.

I respect your decision to hand over your ID when asked if you had one. You're the guy on the scene.

However, I really take offense at police wanting ID's when there is no VA state law requiring it be carried, and no state law requiring one to even identify himself to a police officer (stop-and-identify statute), although there may be local ordinances. Especially in the OP case where they knew nothing illegal was going on fairly quickly. Having the ID run and field contact card filled out was solely in the police hands at that point.

Please, fellas, if you are going to surrender your ID, please do so with the statement that you will comply with the demand but do not consent. Even if it is just a request, please gently get the officer to make it a demand. This way, you can also make a credible complaint about this ID nonsense. Same for requests or demands that you identify yourself verbally. Whether there is a stop-and-identify ordinance in your locality and whetherthe police really did have RAS will affect things, but that can be determined after the stop and after the FOIA recordings are reviewed.

Remember that thepolice at Tony's lied about there not being anyID demands. They knew they don't have authority to do so. If it was so perfectly acceptable to demand ID, they wouldn't have liedthat it didn't occur.

I agree with your premise, but in this case the guy was sitting in his car. Clearly th police would guess he might have a DL with him. Besides they could just take the tag number and run that.

SO as you said I have to agree he handled it well and did what he had to do.

Regards
 

nitrovic

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Hawkflyer wrote:
possumboy wrote:
I’m going to write the sheriff and let him know his deputies were professional, but I don’t think they should have been dispatched for a random call where nothing illegal is happening.

Sorry to ask this again but there is some noise on the line.  Setting aside the speculation by others who weren't there, were these Sheriff's deputies or PWC police?  If you are not certain can you describe the car they were in?


Despite the claims of Chief Dean and others, the Sheriff is the constitutional LE official in the county.  While there is a tenuous agreement in place relating to traffic stops that changes nothing if a Sheriff's deputy is closer.  So it really could be either.

Regards




"The Prince William County, Virginia Sheriff's Department was established in 1731 to provide law enforcement and jailers for the County. In 1970, the Board of County Supervisors established the Prince William County Police Department which assumed the primary responsibility for law enforcement."

 

possumboy

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Answering a few questions with one post...

I was in Southwest Virginia on my way back from SC. It was in Wythe County. AFAIK Wythe County does not have a police department, only a Sheriff's department.

I normally do not surrender ID, but there were two factors. I was being detained. All avenues of exit were blocked.

More importantly, I was in the driver's seat of my minivan. I did not want to get into the argument about not providing ID and have the officer demand I show my driver's license. Not to get slammed for not citing, but I remember a court case where it was ruled that it was allowed since the officer saw me in the driver's seat. I will try to find the case, so don't throw flags yet.

I have had MWAG calls in Prince William County that the dispatcher did not send out officers. The dispatchermay have agreed that I should not be carrying there, but they knew I was not doing anything illegal and did not seen officers.
 

possumboy

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Minor but important point.

The deputyasked if he could see my ID. I did not perceive it as a demand.

I tend to try to work with a LEO that is being polite and pushing me. Up to a point, I carry at least two STFU pills with me at all time - I'm thinking about getting a bite down one in my rear tooth.:lol:

He was professional and polite. That goes a long way with me.

Years ago I wasthrown to the ground and zipped tied for refusal to show ID when it has been unlawfully demanded.

I was even threaten a few weeks ago in DC for refusal to show ID.

I'm just wondering why I get asked for ID so much...
 

deepdiver

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Citizen wrote:
As to whether they over-reacted, it willdepend a lot on what they were told by the 911 caller.
This!

While I can certainly understand why some think the ID issue is not a big deal and while I am personally torn on the issue sometimes, inclined towards the just give the ID and go on with your day to some degree, several years ago I had a personal experience wherein the LEO violated the law and my rights in several ways on this issue. I felt violated at the time and even more violated after I found OCDO, took time to research the laws here and realize that not only were my rights violated in several ways, but the LEO violated the statutory law as well.

All that being said, I think you handled it well Possumboy. If you want to pursue the matter further, I think Citizen offered sage advice.
 

ChinChin

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nitrovic wrote:
Really, so the Sheriff's department responds to calls for service on a daily basis?
The police department is responsible for daily police activities and response. -

[Snip excessive information]

Seriously now! A simple link would have sufficed rathher than being a bandwidth pirate.

You can make a point w/o being a jerk about it. See Mr, Huffman for link cut and paste advice.
 

Hawkflyer

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Lets see. I said -"...the Sheriff is the constitutional LE official in the county."

The Virginia Constitution in Article VII Section 4, without ever mentioning county police or other constitutional authority ANYWHERE says -

Link - Constitution of Virginia

Text

Article VII

Section 4. County and city officers.

There shall be elected by the qualified voters of each county and city a treasurer, a sheriff, an attorney for the Commonwealth, a clerk, who shall be clerk of the court in the office of which deeds are recorded, and a commissioner of revenue. The duties and compensation of such officers shall be prescribed by general law or special act.

Regular elections for such officers shall be held on Tuesday after the first Monday in November. Such officers shall take office on the first day of the following January unless otherwise provided by law and shall hold their respective offices for the term of four years, except that the clerk shall hold office for eight years.

The General Assembly may provide for county or city officers or methods of their selection, including permission for two or more units of government to share the officers required by this section, without regard to the provisions of this section, either (1) by general law to become effective in any county or city when submitted to the qualified voters thereof in an election held for such purpose and approved by a majority of those voting thereon in each such county or city, or (2) by special act upon the request, made after such an election, of each county or city affected. No such law shall reduce the term of any person holding an office at the time the election is held. A county or city not required to have or to elect such officers prior to the effective date of this Constitution shall not be so required by this section.

The General Assembly may provide by general law or special act for additional officers and for the terms of their office.


Game, set, match

Regards

 

nitrovic

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ChinChin wrote:
nitrovic wrote:
Really, so the Sheriff's department responds to calls for service on a daily basis?
The police department is responsible for daily police activities and response. -

[Snip excessive information]

Seriously now! A simple link would have sufficed rathher than being a bandwidth pirate.

You can make a point w/o being a jerk about it.  See Mr, Huffman for link cut and paste advice.


:lol:, good point. Sorry. I changed it to a shorter version.
 

Citizen

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Hawkflyer wrote:
SNIP Lets see. I said -"...the Sheriff is the constitutional LE official in the county."

Chuckle.

I can still remember:

"Sir, the first person in the recruit's chain of command is Series Commander 1st Lt.________.

"Sir, the second person in the recruit's chain of command is Company Commander Capt.______"

"Sir, the third person in the recruit's chain of command is_______"

All the way up through the Secretary of the Navy to the President.

I guess they don't teach that to police.
 

Thundar

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They can show up whenever they choose to show up. You can assert your rights aswhenever you choose.

Am I being detained? is a good question.

Sterile open carry is legal, but sterile driving is not.
 

Sheriff

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possumboy wrote:
Answering a few questions with one post...

It was in Wythe County. AFAIK Wythe County does not have a police department, only a Sheriff's department.
Thanks for clearing that up. Same way when I worked in Central Virginia sheriff's office, NO police department. The sheriff's officehad total law enforcement responsibility for the entire county, and we had one man cars with backup 20 minutes or more away quite often. (We did have several state troopers assigned to the county though) For whatever reason, many people still seem to think all cities and counties have both a police department and a sheriff's office. There's numerous counties in Virginia that will be lucky to see a police department in 75 to 100 years. And I'm not sure I would even call that lucky.
 
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