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Thread: If detained, be polite, or else...

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081224/hl_nm/us_police_er

    Police use excessive force, ER docs say NEW YORK (Reuters Health) – In a survey of a random sample of U.S. emergency physicians, virtually all said they believed that law enforcement officers use excessive force to arrest and detain suspects.
    The sample included 315 respondents. While 99.8 percent believed excessive force is used, almost as many (97.8 percent) reported that they had managed cases that they suspected or that the patient stated had involved excessive use of force by law enforcement officers.
    Nearly two thirds (65.3 percent) estimated that they had treated two or more cases of suspected excessive use of force per year among their patients, according to a report of the survey published in the January 2009 issue of the Emergency Medicine Journal.
    Dr. Jared Strote of the University of Washington, Seattle, and a multicenter team also found that emergency physicians at public teaching hospitals were roughly four times more likely to report managing cases of suspected use of excessive force than those at university or community teaching emergency departments.
    Blunt trauma inflicted by fists or feet was the most common type of injury cited in cases of suspected use of excessive force, followed by "overly tight" handcuffs.
    Most emergency physicians (71.2 percent) admitted that they did not report cases of suspected use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.
    A large majority (96.5 percent) reported that they had no departmental policies on reporting their suspicions or they did not know of a policy to guide their actions, and 93.7 percent said they had received no education or training in dealing with these situations.
    However, most emergency physicians (69.5 percent) felt that it was within their scope of practice to refer cases of suspected use of excessive force for investigation and almost half (47.9 percent) felt that emergency physicians should be legally required to report cases of suspected use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.
    These findings, Strote and colleagues conclude, "suggest that national emergency medicine organizations in the USA should become involved, jointly developing and advocating for guidelines to manage this complex issue."
    SOURCE: Emergency Medicine Journal, January 2009.


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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Get ready to be called a cop hater.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Maybe. Remember, most of these docs are members of the AMA, a notoriously anti-gun, very left leaning organization in the last several decades. We already know that they publish nonsense about gun violence and turn certain health issues into public agenda items. Furthermore, how do they determine "excessive force"? Well, the "believe" it was excessive force, but they were not there on the street seeing what the BG was doing that led to that force being used. Nothing in the story indicates that they follow-up to determine the circumstances of the arrests. So all and all, this is the opinion of MDs based solely on resulting injuries.

    Wonder what they would say about the "excessive force" used by citizens when they have to use their legally carried sidearms for self-defense.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    I agree with your points. We also don't know how the survey was conducted or the questions phrased.


    deepdiver wrote:
    SNIP...So all and all, this is the opinion of MDs based solely on resulting injuries.
    However, this same group makes the same judgments about child abuse and domestic violence and REPORTS it every day. Why not report this?

    ETA: This isn't about cop-hating. It is about the AMA's hypocrisy.
    I am a bit confused why the AMA has such a dramatically different response to violence perpetrated against (presumably) innocent spouses, children, and those under (but still presumably innocent) police suspicion.



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    Jim675 wrote:
    However, this same group makes the same judgments about child abuse and domestic violence and REPORTS it every day. Why not report this?

    Exactly. IIRC doctors are required by law to report their suspicions regarding possible child abuse. And yet almost all of the doctors in the OP (97.8%)have treated suspected excessive force cases and almost none (71.2%)had reported their suspicions.

    I recognize that children are inherently vulnerable to abuse, but so are people who are being relieved of their liberty.

    The doctors should report their suspicions and let an investigation determine the validity of the claim. Isn't that what LEOs are trained to do? Arrest upon suspicion and let court sort it out.

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Please don't flame me for this. While I respect the police for the difficult, often thankless job that theydo, I trust no one with my safety and well being. Not doctors, not cops, not courts. Still, I have interactions with each of these groups from time to time.


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    Regular Member AZkopper's Avatar
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    Gee, lets see:

    Suspects who don't resist or fight go to jail, not the ER.

    Suspects who resist moderately, and who a moderate use of force is used against, go to jail, not the ER.

    It is only suspects who resist/assault officerrs who, where generally a higher level of force might be used, resulting in a trip to the ER.

    So, based on the EXTENT OF THE INJURY, ER docs are determining that excessive force was used? Not based on thePOSSIBLE SUSPECT ACTIONS that lead to the injury?

    Every use of force, especially use of force resulting in hospital visits (since the city/county/state) is billed for the visit. that means that there must be documentation of the use of force to validate the billing.

    The OP article leads one to believe that cops are just randomly bringing in mangled suspects, with no accountability whatsoever.

    This article is as meaningful as a poll of how many Americans believe inGod and then saying that since 80% of them do, God must exist.



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    Good point AZkopper. The article would be more meaningful if it included the numbers of doctors who treated arrest injuries that were not suspicious.

    Thanks for pointing out that slant.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    AZkopper wrote:
    It is only suspects who resist/assault officers who, where generally a higher level of force might be used, resulting in a trip to the ER.
    While I certainly agree with your points, this portion does have a counterpoint.

    When I first lived in Korea a local friend and I were passing an alley. In the alley, two officers where beating a man. The conversation went "What's going on there?" "They're beating a criminal." "How do you know he's a criminal?" "They're beating him."

    I suspect a certain percentage of those with graver injuries may dispute the officers' accounts. That is why the incident should be reported and investigated, just like any other potential assault.

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    Sheriff, you're kind of poking holes in your own argument. The two cases you cite both "stick in your mind" and "generated calls about excessive force."

    Obviously, these situations were not the norm, or they would 1) not stick in your mind, and 2) not have generated numerous calls.

    Does police brutality occur? Sure it does. Does it happen the majority of the time, or even a significant percentage of the time? Not in my experience. Apparently not in yours, either, or you would not have such vivid recollection of the times you have heard about it.

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    AZkopper wrote:
    Gee, lets see:

    Suspects who don't resist or fight go to jail, not the ER.

    Suspects who resist moderately, and who a moderate use of force is used against, go to jail, not the ER.

    It is only suspects who resist/assault officerrs who, where generally a higher level of force might be used, resulting in a trip to the ER.

    So, based on the EXTENT OF THE INJURY, ER docs are determining that excessive force was used? Not based on thePOSSIBLE SUSPECT ACTIONS that lead to the injury?

    Every use of force, especially use of force resulting in hospital visits (since the city/county/state) is billed for the visit. that means that there must be documentation of the use of force to validate the billing.

    The OP article leads one to believe that cops are just randomly bringing in mangled suspects, with no accountability whatsoever.

    This article is as meaningful as a poll of how many Americans believe inGod and then saying that since 80% of them do, God must exist.

    To agree with your point, we must assume that each arrest that was accompanied by force (whether excessive or not) was an arrest where the force was DIRECTLY in proportion to a supposed level of resistence by the suspect. Your suppositions are as valid as those you decry in the article.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Sheriff wrote:
    buster81 wrote:
    Get ready to be called a cop hater.
    You crack me up!

    I'm glad. It just seems to be the first part of the sequence of events on almost every post regarding the police.

    I can't wait to hear from the other side, and the voice of reason on this one.



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    Jim675 wrote:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081224/hl_nm/us_police_er

    Police use excessive force, ER docs say NEW YORK (Reuters Health) – In a survey of a random sample of U.S. emergency physicians, virtually all said they believed that law enforcement officers use excessive force to arrest and detain suspects.
    The sample included 315 respondents. While 99.8 percent believed excessive force is used, almost as many (97.8 percent) reported that they had managed cases that they suspected or that the patient stated had involved excessive use of force by law enforcement officers.
    Nearly two thirds (65.3 percent) estimated that they had treated two or more cases of suspected excessive use of force per year among their patients, according to a report of the survey published in the January 2009 issue of the Emergency Medicine Journal.
    Dr. Jared Strote of the University of Washington, Seattle, and a multicenter team also found that emergency physicians at public teaching hospitals were roughly four times more likely to report managing cases of suspected use of excessive force than those at university or community teaching emergency departments.
    Blunt trauma inflicted by fists or feet was the most common type of injury cited in cases of suspected use of excessive force, followed by "overly tight" handcuffs.
    Most emergency physicians (71.2 percent) admitted that they did not report cases of suspected use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.
    A large majority (96.5 percent) reported that they had no departmental policies on reporting their suspicions or they did not know of a policy to guide their actions, and 93.7 percent said they had received no education or training in dealing with these situations.
    However, most emergency physicians (69.5 percent) felt that it was within their scope of practice to refer cases of suspected use of excessive force for investigation and almost half (47.9 percent) felt that emergency physicians should be legally required to report cases of suspected use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.
    These findings, Strote and colleagues conclude, "suggest that national emergency medicine organizations in the USA should become involved, jointly developing and advocating for guidelines to manage this complex issue."
    SOURCE: Emergency Medicine Journal, January 2009.
    A- I wasn't aware Doctor's were at the scene of the arrest and investigated said accusations.

    B-What does this have to do with open carry? I don't see in the story where the Doctor's stated the patients were detained for weapons charges.

    While I agree your intent was to show the AMA's leanings, you can't control what comes next (ie- Sheriff going off on something TOTALLY different with his "stories" about "bad police"). This is why the forum rules specifically state the post should have something to do with gun rights or open carry. Even in the general discussion forum. Again, I'm with you on this, but the cop haters smell blood and they always come in and start their "antics".

    And no Sheriff, I will not be brought down to a little "e fight" with you. Enough said.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    nitrovic wrote:
    A- I wasn't aware Doctor's were at the scene of the arrest and investigated said accusations.

    B-What does this have to do with open carry? I don't see in the story where the Doctor's stated the patients were detained for weapons charges.
    A: They were not, of course. Neither are they on the scene to investigate child abuse, sexual abuse, or domestic violence. All of which they are required to recognize possible incidents of and report. They are not charged with judging the abuser, merely recognizing the possibility.

    B: Police occasionally detain OCers and, per the AMA, the vast majority of doctors believe they have seen the results of police using excessive force to detain someone.

    The moral of the story was: Be polite to the officer.

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    nitrovic wrote:

    While I agree your intent was to show the AMA's leanings, you can't control what comes next (ie- Sheriff going off on something TOTALLY different with his "stories" about "bad police"). This is why the forum rules specifically state the post should have something to do with gun rights or open carry. Even in the general discussion forum. Again, I'm with you on this, but the cop haters smell blood and they always come in and start their "antics".

    And no Sheriff, I will not be brought down to a little "e fight" with you. Enough said.
    If the bold portion were true, you had no need to post at all, since you call him out yourself.



    If you don't want an "e fight," you didn't need to post.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Now we just need to hear from the voice of reason.

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    Jim675 wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    A- I wasn't aware Doctor's were at the scene of the arrest and investigated said accusations.

    B-What does this have to do with open carry? I don't see in the story where the Doctor's stated the patients were detained for weapons charges.
    A: They were not, of course. Neither are they on the scene to investigate child abuse, sexual abuse, or domestic violence. All of which they are required to recognize possible incidents of and report. They are not charged with judging the abuser, merely recognizing the possibility.

    B: Police occasionally detain OCers and, per the AMA, the vast majority of doctors believe they have seen the results of police using excessive force to detain someone.

    The moral of the story was: Be polite to the officer.
    I would say this highlights the mention many make of carrying at least a voice recorder. If conflict comes from contact with LE while OC or CC, in the view ofAZkopper and others, any injury a citizen receives is justifiable because he MUST have resisted!

    The reality of the OP is that we do not have the background on the incidents that lead up to the hospital cases referenced by the medical personnel. Without that information, any actual conclusion to be drawn (other than simply 'be polite') is not based in facts, but in conjecture. We don't know if those injured were resisting or not. It could be, or it could be excessive force. We do not know.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    Here it is:

    http://emj.bmj.com/content/vol26/issue1/

    Under Original Articles / Excessive use of force....

    ETA: Personal use can one-time register and access for free.

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    wrightme wrote:
    Jim675 wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    A- I wasn't aware Doctor's were at the scene of the arrest and investigated said accusations.

    B-What does this have to do with open carry? I don't see in the story where the Doctor's stated the patients were detained for weapons charges.
    A:* They were not, of course.* Neither are they on the* scene to investigate child abuse, sexual abuse, or domestic violence.* All of which they are required to recognize possible incidents of and report.* They are not charged with judging the abuser, merely recognizing the possibility.

    B:* Police occasionally detain OCers and, per the AMA, the vast majority of doctors believe they have seen the results of police using excessive force to detain someone.*

    The moral of the story was: Be polite to the officer.*
    I would say this highlights the mention many make of carrying at least a voice recorder.* If conflict comes from contact with LE while OC or CC, in the view of nitrovic and others, any injury a citizen receives is justifiable because he MUST have resisted!

    The reality of the OP is that we do not have the background on the incidents that lead up to the hospital cases referenced by the medical personnel.* Without that information, any actual conclusion to be drawn (other than simply 'be polite') is not based in facts, but in conjecture.* We don't know if those injured were resisting or not.* It could be, or it could be excessive force.* We do not know.
    Please cite where I stated the above?

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    nitrovic wrote:
    Please cite where I stated the above?
    OOps. Apologies. I edited my post to reflect the actual. It wasn't you.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    anyone who has been arrested, falsely or rightly knows that ALL cops abuse their authority and use excessive means while dealing with citizens.

    all the way from overly right handcuffs, and condescending "holier-than-thou" abusive language to beatings.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    The point isn't what percentage of police are abusive. The point is the AMA and actual law requires reporting abuse of other types where the abuser is in a position of power over the victim. Hopefully now that this survey exists it can be used as leverage to expand the reporting requirements and lessen the risk for OC in the future. The more eyes / audio / video watching any governmental process the better.

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    buster81 wrote:
    Now we just need to hear from the voice of reason.
    Uhh, Reason left for a beer back in 1913 and hasn't been seen since...

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    mrbiggles wrote:
    anyone who has been arrested, falsely or rightly knows that ALL cops abuse their authority and use excessive means while dealing with citizens.

    all the way from overly right handcuffs, and condescending "holier-than-thou" abusive language to beatings.
    I have been arrested. 3 times. Hopefully never again. I was not mistreated in the least in any of those encounters. Of course, I did not give the AO any reason to use force at all.

    NOTE: events not OC/CC or weapon-related in any way.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    wrightme wrote:
    mrbiggles wrote:
    anyone who has been arrested, falsely or rightly knows that ALL cops abuse their authority and use excessive means while dealing with citizens.

    all the way from overly right handcuffs, and condescending "holier-than-thou" abusive language to beatings.
    I have been arrested. 3 times. Hopefully never again. I was not mistreated in the least in any of those encounters. Of course, I did not give the AO any reason to use force at all.

    NOTE: events not OC/CC or weapon-related in any way.
    I have been arrested/detained only once. And my shoulders where so sore I couldn't raise my arms above my head for a week. I wasn't even formally arrested ie taken downtown. I wasn't charged with anything or given a citation. I didn't offer any resistance to anything that they did. They take it to far. They scream, bitch and moan about how "if we where the ones who had to put our lives on the line every day like they do, we'd understand". But, I'll tell you what. I was an SP in the USAF at one point. There are guys who just take it way to far and it needs to be taken care of.



    BTW the funny thing that i can't figure out about this survey is, you arn't allowed to carry a gun in NYC right.. so police should be feeling less threatened right? right? so there should be less use of force by police because of that fact right? right? hmmm.... doesn't look like it's working out for them so well. An armed society is a polite society.

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    mrbiggles wrote:
    anyone who has been arrested, falsely or rightly knows that ALL cops abuse their authority and use excessive means while dealing with citizens.

    all the way from overly right handcuffs, and condescending "holier-than-thou" abusive language to beatings.
    Violation of forum rule #5.

    5) While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, sex, or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

    Just like I told the original poster, I saw this coming a mile away. The police haters will eventually come in and ruin the thread.

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