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If detained, be polite, or else...

Jim675

Jim675

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081224/hl_nm/us_police_er

Police use excessive force, ER docs say NEW YORK (Reuters Health) – In a survey of a random sample of U.S. emergency physicians, virtually all said they believed that law enforcement officers use excessive force to arrest and detain suspects.
The sample included 315 respondents. While 99.8 percent believed excessive force is used, almost as many (97.8 percent) reported that they had managed cases that they suspected or that the patient stated had involved excessive use of force by law enforcement officers.
Nearly two thirds (65.3 percent) estimated that they had treated two or more cases of suspected excessive use of force per year among their patients, according to a report of the survey published in the January 2009 issue of the Emergency Medicine Journal.
Dr. Jared Strote of the University of Washington, Seattle, and a multicenter team also found that emergency physicians at public teaching hospitals were roughly four times more likely to report managing cases of suspected use of excessive force than those at university or community teaching emergency departments.
Blunt trauma inflicted by fists or feet was the most common type of injury cited in cases of suspected use of excessive force, followed by "overly tight" handcuffs.
Most emergency physicians (71.2 percent) admitted that they did not report cases of suspected use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.
A large majority (96.5 percent) reported that they had no departmental policies on reporting their suspicions or they did not know of a policy to guide their actions, and 93.7 percent said they had received no education or training in dealing with these situations.
However, most emergency physicians (69.5 percent) felt that it was within their scope of practice to refer cases of suspected use of excessive force for investigation and almost half (47.9 percent) felt that emergency physicians should be legally required to report cases of suspected use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.
These findings, Strote and colleagues conclude, "suggest that national emergency medicine organizations in the USA should become involved, jointly developing and advocating for guidelines to manage this complex issue."
SOURCE: Emergency Medicine Journal, January 2009.
 
deepdiver

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Maybe. Remember, most of these docs are members of the AMA, a notoriously anti-gun, very left leaning organization in the last several decades. We already know that they publish nonsense about gun violence and turn certain health issues into public agenda items. Furthermore, how do they determine "excessive force"? Well, the "believe" it was excessive force, but they were not there on the street seeing what the BG was doing that led to that force being used. Nothing in the story indicates that they follow-up to determine the circumstances of the arrests. So all and all, this is the opinion of MDs based solely on resulting injuries.

Wonder what they would say about the "excessive force" used by citizens when they have to use their legally carried sidearms for self-defense.
 
Jim675

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I agree with your points. We also don't know how the survey was conducted or the questions phrased.


deepdiver wrote:
SNIP...So all and all, this is the opinion of MDs based solely on resulting injuries.
Click to expand...
However, this same group makes the same judgments about child abuse and domestic violence and REPORTS it every day. Why not report this?

ETA: This isn't about cop-hating. It is about the AMA's hypocrisy.
I am a bit confused why the AMA has such a dramatically different response to violence perpetrated against (presumably) innocent spouses, children, and those under (but still presumably innocent) police suspicion.
 
Sheriff

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buster81 wrote:
Get ready to be called a cop hater.
Click to expand...

You crack me up! :lol:

Sadly enough, Ihave no trouble believing theresults of this survey. I will cite just one relevant and recent local case. A cop almost runs over a boyfriend and girlfriend in a crosswalk in my city.The girlfriend is pregnant!!! :shock: The boyfriend yells for the cop to "slow the F*** down!" and obey the crosswalklaws. The cop jumps out and throws him against his carto handcuff him. The girlfriend asks why he is being arrested. The cop turns around and physically knocks her for a flip. Cop claimsshe was interfering with his arrest.

You don't have to take my word for any of the above, all of the above is as reported by many witnesses who immediately called 911 to report police brutality and excessive forcein progress.

Excessive force..... yes.
 
C

cccook

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Jim675 wrote:
However, this same group makes the same judgments about child abuse and domestic violence and REPORTS it every day. Why not report this?
Click to expand...


Exactly. IIRC doctors are required by law to report their suspicions regarding possible child abuse. And yet almost all of the doctors in the OP (97.8%)have treated suspected excessive force cases and almost none (71.2%)had reported their suspicions.

I recognize that children are inherently vulnerable to abuse, but so are people who are being relieved of their liberty.

The doctors should report their suspicions and let an investigation determine the validity of the claim. Isn't that what LEOs are trained to do? Arrest upon suspicion and let court sort it out.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Please don't flame me for this. While I respect the police for the difficult, often thankless job that theydo, I trust no one with my safety and well being. Not doctors, not cops, not courts. Still, I have interactions with each of these groups from time to time.
 
AZkopper

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Gee, lets see:

Suspects who don't resist or fight go to jail, not the ER.

Suspects who resist moderately, and who a moderate use of force is used against, go to jail, not the ER.

It is only suspects who resist/assault officerrs who, where generally a higher level of force might be used, resulting in a trip to the ER.

So, based on the EXTENT OF THE INJURY, ER docs are determining that excessive force was used? Not based on thePOSSIBLE SUSPECT ACTIONS that lead to the injury?

Every use of force, especially use of force resulting in hospital visits (since the city/county/state) is billed for the visit. that means that there must be documentation of the use of force to validate the billing.

The OP article leads one to believe that cops are just randomly bringing in mangled suspects, with no accountability whatsoever.

This article is as meaningful as a poll of how many Americans believe inGod and then saying that since 80% of them do, God must exist.
 
C

cccook

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Good point AZkopper. The article would be more meaningful if it included the numbers of doctors who treated arrest injuries that were not suspicious.

Thanks for pointing out that slant.
 
Sheriff

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AZkopper wrote:
Gee, lets see:
Suspects who don't resist or fight go to jail, not the ER.
Suspects who resist moderately, and who a moderate use of force is used against, go to jail, not the ER.
It is only suspects who resist/assault officerrs who, where generally a higher level of force might be used, resulting in a trip to the ER.
Click to expand...


Your assessment has some merit. But what the cases where excessive force is certainly used without any justification whatsoever? One such notorious case pops into my mind... 5 or 6 years ago.... a North Carolina deputy sheriff screams for assistance when a carload of people start resisting him. His screams on the radio made it abundantly clear that he needed backup very quickly. A trooper with a dashcam isthe first to arrive on location. The dashcam clearly shows the deputy now has everybody under control, out on the groundhandcuffed, and he is viciously beating and kicking them one by one. a/k/a Steet Justice.

Once handcuffed and laying on the ground, it should have ended there. Nobody would have ended in the ER most likely.

Yes, you know the rest of the story. The suspects ended up in the ER, thetrooper refused to destroy the videotape, and the deputy was fired. Would a doctor be wrong in sayingexcessive force was used?
 
Jim675

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AZkopper wrote:
It is only suspects who resist/assault officers who, where generally a higher level of force might be used, resulting in a trip to the ER.
Click to expand...
While I certainly agree with your points, this portion does have a counterpoint.

When I first lived in Korea a local friend and I were passing an alley. In the alley, two officers where beating a man. The conversation went "What's going on there?" "They're beating a criminal." "How do you know he's a criminal?" "They're beating him."

I suspect a certain percentage of those with graver injuries may dispute the officers' accounts. That is why the incident should be reported and investigated, just like any other potential assault.
 
M

mzbk2l

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Sheriff, you're kind of poking holes in your own argument. The two cases you cite both "stick in your mind" and "generated calls about excessive force."

Obviously, these situations were not the norm, or they would 1) not stick in your mind, and 2) not have generated numerous calls.

Does police brutality occur? Sure it does. Does it happen the majority of the time, or even a significant percentage of the time? Not in my experience. Apparently not in yours, either, or you would not have such vivid recollection of the times you have heard about it.
 
W

wrightme

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AZkopper wrote:
Gee, lets see:

Suspects who don't resist or fight go to jail, not the ER.

Suspects who resist moderately, and who a moderate use of force is used against, go to jail, not the ER.

It is only suspects who resist/assault officerrs who, where generally a higher level of force might be used, resulting in a trip to the ER.

So, based on the EXTENT OF THE INJURY, ER docs are determining that excessive force was used? Not based on thePOSSIBLE SUSPECT ACTIONS that lead to the injury?

Every use of force, especially use of force resulting in hospital visits (since the city/county/state) is billed for the visit. that means that there must be documentation of the use of force to validate the billing.

The OP article leads one to believe that cops are just randomly bringing in mangled suspects, with no accountability whatsoever.

This article is as meaningful as a poll of how many Americans believe inGod and then saying that since 80% of them do, God must exist.
Click to expand...
To agree with your point, we must assume that each arrest that was accompanied by force (whether excessive or not) was an arrest where the force was DIRECTLY in proportion to a supposed level of resistence by the suspect. Your suppositions are as valid as those you decry in the article.
 
buster81

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Sheriff wrote:
buster81 wrote:
Get ready to be called a cop hater.
Click to expand...

You crack me up! :lol:
Click to expand...


I'm glad.:D It just seems to be the first part of the sequence of events on almost every post regarding the police.

I can't wait to hear from the other side, and the voice of reason on this one.
 
N

nitrovic

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Jim675 wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081224/hl_nm/us_police_er

Police use excessive force, ER docs say NEW YORK (Reuters Health) – In a survey of a random sample of U.S. emergency physicians, virtually all said they believed that law enforcement officers use excessive force to arrest and detain suspects.
The sample included 315 respondents. While 99.8 percent believed excessive force is used, almost as many (97.8 percent) reported that they had managed cases that they suspected or that the patient stated had involved excessive use of force by law enforcement officers.
Nearly two thirds (65.3 percent) estimated that they had treated two or more cases of suspected excessive use of force per year among their patients, according to a report of the survey published in the January 2009 issue of the Emergency Medicine Journal.
Dr. Jared Strote of the University of Washington, Seattle, and a multicenter team also found that emergency physicians at public teaching hospitals were roughly four times more likely to report managing cases of suspected use of excessive force than those at university or community teaching emergency departments.
Blunt trauma inflicted by fists or feet was the most common type of injury cited in cases of suspected use of excessive force, followed by "overly tight" handcuffs.
Most emergency physicians (71.2 percent) admitted that they did not report cases of suspected use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.
A large majority (96.5 percent) reported that they had no departmental policies on reporting their suspicions or they did not know of a policy to guide their actions, and 93.7 percent said they had received no education or training in dealing with these situations.
However, most emergency physicians (69.5 percent) felt that it was within their scope of practice to refer cases of suspected use of excessive force for investigation and almost half (47.9 percent) felt that emergency physicians should be legally required to report cases of suspected use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.
These findings, Strote and colleagues conclude, "suggest that national emergency medicine organizations in the USA should become involved, jointly developing and advocating for guidelines to manage this complex issue."
SOURCE: Emergency Medicine Journal, January 2009.
Click to expand...

A- I wasn't aware Doctor's were at the scene of the arrest and investigated said accusations.

B-What does this have to do with open carry? I don't see in the story where the Doctor's stated the patients were detained for weapons charges.

While I agree your intent was to show the AMA's leanings, you can't control what comes next (ie- Sheriff going off on something TOTALLY different with his "stories" about "bad police"). This is why the forum rules specifically state the post should have something to do with gun rights or open carry. Even in the general discussion forum. Again, I'm with you on this, but the cop haters smell blood and they always come in and start their "antics".

And no Sheriff, I will not be brought down to a little "e fight" with you. Enough said.
 
Jim675

Jim675

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nitrovic wrote:
A- I wasn't aware Doctor's were at the scene of the arrest and investigated said accusations.

B-What does this have to do with open carry? I don't see in the story where the Doctor's stated the patients were detained for weapons charges.
Click to expand...
A: They were not, of course. Neither are they on the scene to investigate child abuse, sexual abuse, or domestic violence. All of which they are required to recognize possible incidents of and report. They are not charged with judging the abuser, merely recognizing the possibility.

B: Police occasionally detain OCers and, per the AMA, the vast majority of doctors believe they have seen the results of police using excessive force to detain someone.

The moral of the story was: Be polite to the officer.
 
W

wrightme

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nitrovic wrote:
While I agree your intent was to show the AMA's leanings, you can't control what comes next (ie- Sheriff going off on something TOTALLY different with his "stories" about "bad police"). This is why the forum rules specifically state the post should have something to do with gun rights or open carry. Even in the general discussion forum. Again, I'm with you on this, but the cop haters smell blood and they always come in and start their "antics".

And no Sheriff, I will not be brought down to a little "e fight" with you. Enough said.
Click to expand...

If the bold portion were true, you had no need to post at all, since you call him out yourself.



If you don't want an "e fight," you didn't need to post.
 
Sheriff

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nitrovic wrote:
....no Sheriff, I will not be brought down to a little "e fight" with you. Enough said.
Click to expand...



wrightme wrote:
If the bold portion were true, you had no need to post at all, since you call him out yourself. If you don't want an "e fight," you didn't need to post.
Click to expand...


wrightme, correct. He honestly can't see the fallacy of his own posts.
 
W

wrightme

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Jim675 wrote:
nitrovic wrote:
A- I wasn't aware Doctor's were at the scene of the arrest and investigated said accusations.

B-What does this have to do with open carry? I don't see in the story where the Doctor's stated the patients were detained for weapons charges.
Click to expand...
A: They were not, of course. Neither are they on the scene to investigate child abuse, sexual abuse, or domestic violence. All of which they are required to recognize possible incidents of and report. They are not charged with judging the abuser, merely recognizing the possibility.

B: Police occasionally detain OCers and, per the AMA, the vast majority of doctors believe they have seen the results of police using excessive force to detain someone.

The moral of the story was: Be polite to the officer.
Click to expand...
I would say this highlights the mention many make of carrying at least a voice recorder. If conflict comes from contact with LE while OC or CC, in the view ofAZkopper and others, any injury a citizen receives is justifiable because he MUST have resisted!

The reality of the OP is that we do not have the background on the incidents that lead up to the hospital cases referenced by the medical personnel. Without that information, any actual conclusion to be drawn (other than simply 'be polite') is not based in facts, but in conjecture. We don't know if those injured were resisting or not. It could be, or it could be excessive force. We do not know.
 
Sheriff

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wrightme wrote:
We don't know if those injured were resisting or not. It could be, or it could be excessive force. We do not know.
Click to expand...

True. I am sure the actualsurvey published in the January 2009 issue of the Emergency Medicine Journalgoes into much more detail as to the who, whatand whys of each case. But we don't have the benefit of seeing those results at the present time as we discuss this.

Almostmakes me want to obtain a copy of theEmergency Medicine Journal.
 
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