Common Calibers

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:cuss:

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Gator5713 wrote:

tju1973 wrote:

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Ok, I am too lazy to read al the others, so this may already have been posted--

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First... There was some good info in your post, basically looked like a compilation of a number of posts that were already here with some clarification, so no problems with your actual post, however...

Most of the best threads on this forum go on for multiple pages and can get very cumbersome to read all the way through and therefore good skimming skills are required, on a thread such as this, the posts are for the most part short and very manageable and it is still only one page!
If you can't manage to get through that, I question your ability for many things that require discipline and thoroughness...
Keeping yourself informed keeps you from looking like an idiot, and looking like an idiot or repeating the same things that have been posted multiple times on a thread will likely get you flamed, I suggest you get over your laziness and "RATS" (Read All The Screen)!

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No. I admitted to being too lazy to read it all, but I should have stated that it was my own $.02 on the subject. As they are my opinion I will not change it-- no more than you would change your high horseness-- ObWellBee..

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:cuss:

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For handguns, the most popular are:

.22LR (CHEAP stuff, something like $15/500, and the cockroaches will probably still be making them after WWIII)

.380ACP (a common caliber for pocket semi-autos like the Walther PPk and Bersa Thunder)

.38Sp (a light revolver round, .38s abound and have done so for many decades)

.357Mag (the .38's big brother; guns that shoot .357 can also fire .38 but not vice-versa)

9x19mm (the cheapest "defense-caliber" round in the U.S. because it's the main military handgun caliber and also very common in police dept's; it's been around over 100 years andthey'll never stop making it)

.40 S&W (Another popular law enforcement caliber, it's basically a slightly larger, slightly hotter 9mm)

.357 Sig (A 9mm bullet in a necked-down .40S&W casing; it's a REALLY hot 9mm. Also popular with LEAs, especially federal agencies like the FBI)

.45ACP (The grandaddy of American semi-auto rounds. The well-known 1911 military sidearm made this a staple; it's never going away even though few gov't agencies still use it)

.45 Long Colt (the grandaddy of American revolver rounds; before .38 became popular this was pretty much THE revolver cartridge and it is still popular, though second to .38/.357)

For rifles:

.22LR (again; cost and ease of use of a .22 make it a great varminter/plinker round)

.223 Remington (This is the ammo for the M16 and M249 rifles; a bit wimpy but a staple of hog and 'yote hunters as well as for HD)

7.62x39mm Soviet (This is the AK round and as such is the most-produced rifle cartridge on the planet. If you want a gun for which you can always find ammo, buy an AK)

.308 Winchester (the civilian variant of the interchangeable 7.62x51NATO cartridge used in the M14 and M40 rifles, it's an extremely popular deer round)

.30-30 Winchester (a blunt-nosed bullet designed for the first tube-fed repeaters back in the 1800s, it'sa well-liked deer round with a long history)

30-06 Springfield (this cartridge saw the U.S. through both World Wars and is a mainstay of big game hunters)

7.62x54R (Another Russian round, this is the counterpart to the Western 30-06Sp and 7.62NATO. The AK's cartridge is based on it, and before the AK hit the scene it was THE battle rifle cartridge for Mother Russia. Still used in the Dragunov and WWII-eraMosin Nagants)

None of these are going away anytime soon. If Western civilization falls apart, though, the round I'd expect to beproduced longestthereafter would be the AK's 7.62 Soviet. 9mm Parabellum would be the defensive handgun round I'd expect to still be able to find. Anything currently NATO-standard, plus the 7.62 Soviet round, will be plentiful in the event of a global catastophe.

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I'll make a list of the mostcommon calibers that are very useful for defense. They're not in order in terms of commonality, but in terms of effectiveness. (based on my own opinion) Yes there are more calibers out there that will do the job, but these are the most common.



Automatic Pistol (semi-autos):

.45 ACP (stands for auto colt pistol, not to be confused with .45 LC or 45 Colt, which are older revolver and carbine cartridges with rims on them)

.40 S&W

9mm Luger (9x19 Parabellum)

.22 LR (LR stands for Long Rifle. This is a rimfire cartridge and is very effective but it must have absolutely perfect shot placement to be effective. That's why I put it lower on the list. Note that the .22 LR can be fired in just about every type of firearm: lever actions, bolt actions, semi-auto pistols, semi-auto rifles, revolvers and even pumps. Ammunition for it is extremely inexpensive and it's a great training caliber. I'd recommend getting some .22's in whatever style of rifle or pistol you plan to purchase just for target shooting and plinking fun.

Revolvers

.357 Magnum

.38 Special (or better yet .38 Special +P, which means higher pressure and more energy delivered to the target)

.22 LR

Rifles and Carbines

.30-06 Springfield (tied with the .308 Win although it is capable of shooting heavier projectiles at higher pressures than a .308 can in a bolt action, in a semi-automatic battle rifle it's not advised, thus the "tie" in my opinion. Military surplus ammuntion for the '06 is still relatively inexpensive when compared to the .308)

.308 Winchester (also known as 7.62 x 51 NATO) (because of modern powders, I'd put it as a tie for first place in terms of effectiveness at stopping threats when fired from a battle rifle. Military surplus ammunition for this caliber is almost impossible to find but it is the second-most common rifle ammunition available at any major sporting goods store.)

7.62 x 39 (Russian ammo for the SKS style rifles, commonly (but incorrectly) referred to as AK's. This is probably the most common rifle ammunition in the world, but not necessarily this country.)

.223Remington (also known as 5.56 x 45 NATO) (This is what the AR-15 variants use and also what our own military uses in the M4, M16, and M249. This ammunition is by far the most common to find in sporting goods stores, although the prices have gone up significantly. Surplus is still available for this caliber.)

.22 LR

Shotguns

12 Ga. (Next to the .22 LR this is probably the most commonly available ammunition in our country. I'd suggest #4 or #6 bird shot for home defense. I would not recommend buck&ball, slugs, or any of the different buck shot configurations for home defense. They're too likely to punch through walls, floors and ceilings and injure others nearby. However, the slugs and the heavier buck shot loads are absolutely wonderful for defense in a situation where collateral damage is not an issue.

20 Ga. (I mention this, because it is out there and every other category of firearm had at least two types of caliber (or gauge in this case) to choose from. It's relatively common, but probably not any more common than .410 boreshotshells are. I'd stick with 12 gauge.)

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shad0wfax wrote:

12 Ga. (Next to the .22 LR this is probably the most commonly available ammunition in our country. I'd suggest #4 or #6 bird shot for home defense. I would not recommend buck&ball, slugs, or any of the different buck shot configurations for home defense. They're too likely to punch through walls, floors and ceilings and injure others nearby. However, the slugs and the heavier buck shot loads are absolutely wonderful for defense in a situation where collateral damage is not an issue.

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I am going to have to disagree strongly with your opinion here. A birdshot blastmay be LESS likely to penetrate drywall, but by that same token it will not penetrate to vital organs and therefore is only effective as a psychological/pain incapacitator. In addition, birdshot can have hundreds of pellets designed to create a very large spray pattern. Odds are if you're standing more than a couple of yards from your target, some of those are not going to hit the BG; they will instead hit whatever is behind him.

A double-aught buck pellet, OTOH is only slightly smaller than a 9mm, and will penetrate to the necessary depth.There are 8 or 9 of them in a standard 2.75" shell; each one with the muzzle energy of a 9mm. Buckshot will do the job; birdshot is for the birds.

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Liko81 wrote:

shad0wfax wrote:

12 Ga. (Next to the .22 LR this is probably the most commonly available ammunition in our country. I'd suggest #4 or #6 bird shot for home defense. I would not recommend buck&ball, slugs, or any of the different buck shot configurations for home defense. They're too likely to punch through walls, floors and ceilings and injure others nearby. However, the slugs and the heavier buck shot loads are absolutely wonderful for defense in a situation where collateral damage is not an issue.

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I am going to have to disagree strongly with your opinion here. A birdshot blastmay be LESS likely to penetrate drywall, but by that same token it will not penetrate to vital organs and therefore is only effective as a psychological/pain incapacitator. In addition, birdshot can have hundreds of pellets designed to create a very large spray pattern. Odds are if you're standing more than a couple of yards from your target, some of those are not going to hit the BG; they will instead hit whatever is behind him.

A double-aught buck pellet, OTOH is only slightly smaller than a 9mm, and will penetrate to the necessary depth.There are 8 or 9 of them in a standard 2.75" shell; each one with the muzzle energy of a 9mm. Buckshot will do the job; birdshot is for the birds.

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The big heavy birdshot has it's place in home defense, especially in apartment complexes or homes with many different rooms that have children in them. Leave the buckshot for outdoor defense or homes in the country, I say.


#4 or #6 birdshot is most certainly lethal at close range. It will kill with authority in home-defense scenarios. I'm not talking about the No10 or No12 quail shot here. I'm talking aboutturkey, goose,and duck loads meant for taking tough birds on the wing at long distances. (Granted, I'm not advocating 26" barrels with X-Full chokes for home defense.) In home defense situations, we're talking inside of 10 yards in just about every room of your home unless you have some seriously long hallways or massive rooms. Even a large room will beunder 20 yards across and No4 shot will do the job nicely at those ranges. (It'll punch through bone just fine.) No4 shot may have wounding energy once it goes through two layers of drywall, but it's highly unlikely that it will be lethal energy unless you took a pellet in the eye or behind the ear.

As for your assertion that "overspray" is a serious issue with No4 birdshot, I disagree with you completely. At point-blank range out to 10 yards or soa cylinder choke is absolutely ideal for home defense and the pattern will be 8-10" (depending on wadding and barrel length)which takes out a torso nicely if you're aiming center-of-mass. Even with a short un-choked barrel (18.5" cylinder)you'll still get 30" patterns at 20 yards. If you live in a home that will require more than 20 yard shots, just put a choke tube in there to tighten the pattern back up...

00 Buck will most definitely punch through walls and buckshot will retain enough energy to be potentially lethal through two layers of drywall. If I was going to use buckshot in my home, I'd use No 4 buck. Anything bigger than that (like 000 or 00) is just too dangerous to the tenants living nearby. If I needed to fire anything bigger than no4 buckshot, I'd go straight to slugs or grab my carbine and skip the buck all together.

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gah!~ instant double-post and I only clicked once...

Delete me please.

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Some great stuff here, guys. Many thanks!

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My opinion, common calibers are the way to go. For ready supply AND cost-effectiveness.

.38/.357, 9mm, .40, .44 Spl./.44 mag., .45 ACP / Long Colt. For personal defense weapons, that's where I'd stay. Other calibers seem to come 'n go too much for my liking. These are all also proven "street" calibers. NOT ballistic charts, ballistic gelatin, or dead pigs / goats. Real lethal encounters, real shootings, real results.

IMO, use what's KNOWN to work, and is readily available. Not much point in having a .38 Super in the future when they eventually quit making ammo for it, then it's a paperweight.

For me, for ammo, again I tend to go with what's been proven on the streets (in alphabetical order): CorBon, Golden Saber, Hydra-Shok, Silvertips.

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Warrior,
Excellent question and, unfortunately for you, there are a lot of good answers. Your OP indicated part of what you think your firearms will be used for but did not mention what your PRIMARY purpose for your gun(s) will be. Being from CA I also know that you probably aren't going to be concealed carrying(at least for a few years).
When I deal with clients needing architectural services, the first and most important issues are 1.) What is your program(what do you need your "space/bldg." to do) and 2. what is your budget? Knowing the answers to these will help you zero in on which "solution" is right for you.
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Here is some input, based on MY program, so take it FWIW:

1. For me, the most importan/likely use for a gun is SELF-DEFENSE in the home(I generally don't live in a crime-ridden area, work at home and don't go out lots at night in "dicey" areas). Most experts that I have read indicate that 12 or 20 ga. shotgun is most suitable for that purpose. If you don't plan on hunting with it, a shorter, self-defense shotgun is probably most suitable.
12ga. ammo is more common than 20 ga. but both are fairly easy to find. A Shotgun can fire a multitude of different rounds so there is quite a bit of flexibility. I have a Winchester model 1300 and, as shad0wfax has indicated, use #4 or #6 Bird shot. I have rarely designed or worked on a house where a room, in it's longest dimension was more than 30'(10 yards - most larger rooms are in the 16'- 24' range) so the birdshot will do just fine in these tight conditions(about a 3"-10" spread). I have read conflicting reports from "experts" arguing exact opposites about birdshot vs. buckshot for self-defense in the home. I tend to agree with both - depending upon whether inside or outside. Outside, most definitely buckshot.
http://www.maverickarms.com/pages/images/guns/31046big.gif

2. I believe, that persons concerned with their RTKBA should have and know how to use a Shotgun, a rifle and pistol. The idea of having a rifle and pistol sharing the same ammunition is intriguing and possible. As mentioned earlier there are rifle pistol combos that do that. My favorite firearm is my little, Winchester Model 94 AE. lever-action rifle in .357 mag. cal.(with a 16" barrel) Shooting that caliber in a rifle can take down a deer at a max. of about 100 yds. It can take out a mountain lion(a consideration where I live). It can shoot .38 specials(quite powerful in their own right through a rifle) for less expensive targe practice. It can shoot Shot Shells for a snake or small varmint/dove load if at close range. It's extremely small size makes it quite versatile(34" long). While it doesn't do any one thing spectacularly, it does many things quite well. If you don't have an unlimited budget for firearms(as I didn't when starting) it's a great rifle choice. If you think you may be battling the masses or gang-bangers in the SHTF scenario, then a semi-auto in .223, .308 or 7.62 is probably a better choice for a rifle. If you plan to do a lot of hunting, then a different choice is called for. Personally, I want an M-1 carbine(.30 cal.), but have settled, for the time being, on an SKS(7.62x39).
http://members.cox.net/kjc402/Win_94AE_Trapper.JPG

3. Pistol choices are quite large, even in CA. Revolver or Semi-auto? Large, medium or compact? Again, your puposes for the gun are paramount in what you choose. If you have a .357mag rifle(available from Rossi, Marlin, Puma as well), your pistol could be a .357mag. revolver or .38spl. revolver(since you might have .38spl rounds for the rifle - remember a .38spl firearm can not fire a .357 mag. cartridge). Revolers, generally are considered to have less mechanical problems and, if open carrying, don't need mags on the belt(cartridges and speed-loaders can be in your pockets). Revolvers are almost always limited in the number of rounds(5-7) so that could be a consideration depending upon your needs. In CA, your semi-auto pistols are limited to 10 round mags, so some of the large capacity mag advantage of a semi-auto is reduced.
If going semi-auto, 9mm seems the most common round(and rifles are available that can shoot that same round as mentioned earlier). After that, I'd guess that a .45 ACP(as used in 1911's and number of newer Semi-autos) seems to be extremely common. Many consider the 9mm as not quite having the stopping power of a larger caliber and therefore prefer something more powerful. There is not a right or wrong here. If carrying for self-defense in a variety of conditions, the best caliber/gun is:
a. the one you will have with you most of the time
b. the one you can shoot accurately most of the time
c. the one that works when you need it to work.
I have a 9mm semi-auto primarily BECAUSE it is pretty much the most common caliber in a handgun(so ammo should be widely available and likely cheap). I have other handguns and want more(especially the .357 revolver), but just haven't "consummated the marriage" (of pistol to rifle) yet.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/walther_p38_p1.jpg

4. While I don't have one yet, I intend to get a .22 rifle, for inexpensive shooting. Ammo is expensive and getting moreso. It also can be used for small game if you are so inclined. They also make great starter firearms for beginning and young shooters. Getting others, especially a badly brainwashed younger generation, interested in firearms is a VERY important use of firearms. Learning safety, marksmanship, hunting, self-defense, U.S. History, etc. aspects are extremely important to be passed on. So far, I have been able to use my brother's Henry .22 lever rifle. I'll probably end up with a Ruger 10-22 as previously described in a earlier post.
[line]There is endless discussion possible, but your great question is getting you a lot to consider. My point is, try to identify your program(what do you want to do with these firearms) before rushing out and buying anything. Since carrying in CA is so problematic at this time, I'd get the shotgun and rifle first, but that's just me. Since I work at home, I can carry at work and the shotgun is ALWAYS handy. If you get even more specific about how/when/where/why you may have/use your firearm, you are likely to get even more focused advice from the OCDO members.

Sorry the post is so long, but it is a can of worms. So many choices, so little $.:banghead:

Enjoy shopping!

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Is anyone else confused about how some people insist that nothing but birdshot should be used in a HD shotgun, but are perfectly comfortable with people using 9mm, .40sw or .45acp, all of which penetrate walls more efficiently than buckshot?

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9mm Luger & 7.62X39 can be found on any continent in the world.

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Heartless_Conservative wrote:

Is anyone else confused about how some people insist that nothing but birdshot should be used in a HD shotgun, but are perfectly comfortable with people using 9mm, .40sw or .45acp, all of which penetrate walls more efficiently than buckshot?

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Being a Heartless Conservative myself, I'll see if I can shed some light on your "confusion" .
[line]Most anything you use for self-defense is better than nothing, so if all you have is a .22 or .45, so be it. That said, some calibers, loads etc. can be considered better than others with regard to stopping power, recoil, penetration(walls and people, etc.) in a HOME defense situation. Also, where you are HOME will make a difference. If you are in an apartment or condo, that's different than if you are on a farm. Penetration thru walls becomes a very important consideration when in close proximity to others.

The following is a very long, but worthwhile read on Home Defense calibers:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

A couple pertinent paragraphs are these:
Two things to keep in mind about birdshot. The first is that birdshot is as lethal as buckshot at close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with birdshot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth.
The second thing is that birdshot makes a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with two #4 birdshot rounds followed by 00 buck. Birdshot is much less likely to penetrate thin interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side, and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house, however - if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead). The stopping power of birdshot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead. Choose any #4 or BB high brass lead hunting load. I like the Federal "Classic Lead Hi-Brass" #4 birdshot (HI26-4) and Winchester "Super-X" #4 high brass birdshot (X12-4), but there is little difference between the various choices. Buy whichever you please. If you're a bird hunter, use your favorite hunting shells as long as they are #6 or larger.
[line]A 12 ga. 00 buckshot has what, 9 pellets blowing through walls(ea. the size of almost a 9mm bullet) and moving outward in an expanding pattern. In tight quarters and thin walls, the odds of hitting something you don't want to hit with the 00 buckshot is greater than it is with a single 9mm bullet penetrating the same thin wall.

Most HOME DEFENSE situations occur in fairly tight quarters(less than 30' and mostly less than 20'). The argument here isn't that 9mm, .45, .357, etc. is OK and buckshot is not; the argument is that, in tight quarters where penetration is an important consideration, #4 or #6 birdshot can be as effective and have less possibility of "collateral damage" than buckshot and pistol/rifle calibers.

If you live in a concrete, brick or conc. block home, or log home and no kids, relatives or friends are in the next bedrooms, then penetration is not much of a consideration and 00 buck is a better choice, since it also is better for outdoor defense as well.

If all I have is a .357, then that's what I'll use. I'd rather have a 12ga. with #4 birdshot as the first few rounds since it MAY reduce collateral damage and my liabiity. Saying one prefers birdshot over buckshot in this limited situation does not imply that there is not a same penetration concern with 9mm, .357, .45.
[line]Finally, sorry Warrior for taking your thread a bit off topic, but since you said you are new to it all, usually the more discussion, the better for you.

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4armed Architect wrote:

Being a Heartless Conservative myself, I'll see if I can shed some light on your "confusion" .

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Most anything you use for self-defense is better than nothing, so if all you have is a .22 or .45, so be it. That said, some calibers, loads etc. can be considered better than others with regard to stopping power, recoil, penetration(walls and people, etc.) in a HOME defense situation. Also, where you are HOME will make a difference. If you are in an apartment or condo, that's different than if you are on a farm. Penetration thru walls becomes a very important consideration when in close proximity to others.

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Everyone has their own thoughts, ideas, and preferences, of course. But for the MOST part, for MOST homes, I don't care for the idea of utilizing a shotgun as a weapon of defense for inside the home, UNLESS that home has H-U-G-E rooms, or the shotgun is so short so as to beillegal without about an armful of permits.

Any one is, of course, free to make ANY argument they wish, but from practical, real world, my basic concern is one of weapon retention. Particularly in the confines of small(er) homes, or specific areas of large homes (like the bed / bath) areas.

I know the "standard" argument of "that could NEVER happen to me!". But I know different, even if you're the most Rambo / Conan / Harry Callahan / Bruce Lee type currently extant on the planet.

It's simply a matter of leverage. And the advantage the BG has when you're coming around the corner. He KNOWS you're there, you DON'T know he's there.

And let's stay away from the "Oh, well he'll just have the muzzle of the shotgun pointed right at his midsection!" Yeah, m-a-y-b-e. Scumbags aren't necessarily stupid either, though a great MANY on forums seem to think so.

Come around the corner (even the far side of the corner, which should be done with ANY weapon) barrel first, you're offering the BG the weapon. At the least, it's now a real struggle, and if you pull the trigger to "deafen" him, you'll suffer the same fate.

Come around the corner in the "present arms" position, and you're obviously at a tactical disadvantage. BG pushes you're arms below your chin, slightly inward, essentially "forcing" you to pull the trigger, and you just likely killed yourself. Don't pull the trigger (trigger outside the guard, y'know), and he can "push-pull" the shotgun away. Even though it would then be in an upside-down position, it's still pointed at you and he's unlikely to miss, even upside-down, at 5' - 6'.

Conversely, unless you're going around corners in an Isosceles stance(not a particularly good idea, tactically speaking), basically any handgun is easier to protect from a gun grab. NOT saying it's impossible to grab it, but MUCH harder to grab if the good guy is using an appropriate hold / stance.

Even if you're in a gun-grab struggle, it's much easier to fire if necessary, even when in an "up-close-and-personal" fight. With a shotgun, the BG can get inside you're minimum firing distance. Pretty tough to do with modern defensive handguns, since you could literally be head-to-head and still put the handgun in to use.

Sorry to get off topic. But it is something I think of any time the subject of the shotgun as an inside the home defense weapon comes up. Obviously, the same argument can be made with rifles.

Sure, you may BE that Rambo, etc. On the other hand, the BG may be as well. They're not ALL little, frail, burned-out druggies, y'know.

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All of this talk of crisis situations reminds me that, whereas I'm officially a "collector," I still don't own anything in 22LR. Oops. Just as well I waited, maybe, since everyone is hoarding everything else just now.

-ljp