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Thread: ordered my brand new....

  1. #1
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    ....BLACKHAWK serpa holster last night. should have shipped out today, and be getting it in a week. i serarched all the forums and wound up deciding the serpa is what most recommend, so i'm going to give it a try. plus i got it for $44 including shipping.
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    Excellent choice.

    Make sure you give the paddle a good through test drive. I was skeptical about its functionality but ended up liking it better than the belt attacher.

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    I love the Serpa so much, I have one for each of my handguns. I used the belt loop attachment for a long time, because I couldn't figure out how the paddle worked. Then I figured it out, and been using it ever since LOL!

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    Here's hoping you don't become one of the many who have inadvertently turned a button-press into a finger reaching inside the trigger guard......

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    Elkad wrote:
    Here's hoping you don't become one of the many who have inadvertently turned a button-press into a finger reaching inside the trigger guard......
    Cite for "many"?

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    google serpa negligent discharge

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=164512
    and the several sticked posts at
    http://warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22
    are a good place to start

    No, I haven't seen it myself. The fact that instructors at various defensive pistol schools have seen NDs, and subsequently BANNED the holsters from their training programs is enough for me.

    I'll stick to more traditional retention methods (that also can't get gummed up by sand/mud if you end up on the ground).

    I've also heard reports that in a takeaway situation, it is very easy to break the holster off the paddle, resulting in, at best, a control struggle where you no longer have your belt as an advantage.

  7. #7
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
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    Elkad wrote:
    google serpa negligent discharge

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=164512
    and the several sticked posts at
    http://warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22
    are a good place to start

    No, I haven't seen it myself. The fact that instructors at various defensive pistol schools have seen NDs, and subsequently BANNED the holsters from their training programs is enough for me.

    I'll stick to more traditional retention methods (that also can't get gummed up by sand/mud if you end up on the ground).

    I've also heard reports that in a takeaway situation, it is very easy to break the holster off the paddle, resulting in, at best, a control struggle where you no longer have your belt as an advantage.

    i think i would have enough natural intelligence and muscle memory to avoid that possiblity....
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    I usually don't find myself rolling around in the dirt, possibly getting a few grains of dirt or sand in the retention mechanism of the Serpa holsters. I am not one to be easily caught off guard, and thrown to the ground by an attacker. Ever since I've been carrying, my head has been on a 360 degree swivel (for the most part). For the average armed civilian in an urban setting (like myself), the chance of rolling around like a Marine in combat is minimal.

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    I belive you need a couple of different holsters. when im in town/city i use the serpa when I know im going to be getting dirty or possibly dirty i have a black hawk leg holster. and when i have to cc i have a nice lil shoulderholster....(but dont try and completly hide a 96E)

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    American Rattlesnake wrote:
    Elkad wrote:
    Here's hoping you don't become one of the many who have inadvertently turned a button-press into a finger reaching inside the trigger guard......
    Cite for "many"?
    In this case many = few.

    If you don't train to keep your widget off of the boom switch until on target, you will have a ND one day no matter what type of holster you use. The fault is not with the holster but rather with the user.

    Faulting the evil holster for NDs is akin to blaming the evil gun for suicides. It is a mechanical device that requires user input and with that comes the personal responsibility of proper training and reinforcement.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Elkad wrote:
    google serpa negligent discharge

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=164512
    and the several sticked posts at
    http://warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22
    are a good place to start

    No, I haven't seen it myself. The fact that instructors at various defensive pistol schools have seen NDs, and subsequently BANNED the holsters from their training programs is enough for me.

    I vast majority of schools/training programs have not banned or restricted this holster. I find that many instructors have their personal thoughts - that alone is not enough for me.

    I'll stick to more traditional retention methods (that also can't get gummed up by sand/mud if you end up on the ground).

    Any retention method can refuse to release or not function/retain given the right circumstances. Snaps/thumb breaks have refused to be pried open even.

    I've also heard reports that in a takeaway situation, it is very easy to break the holster off the paddle, resulting in, at best, a control struggle where you no longer have your belt as an advantage.

    Cite? Are you maybe confusing this with the video that circulated for a while about Fobus holsters?
    Your posting would seem to be an attack on a widely accepted and used product mentioning as reasons only those limitations recognized - there is no perfect holster. We each make our own choices to fit our own criteria and this holster is IMO a valid consideration.

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Elkad wrote:
    google serpa negligent discharge

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=164512
    and the several sticked posts at
    http://warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22
    are a good place to start

    No, I haven't seen it myself. The fact that instructors at various defensive pistol schools have seen NDs, and subsequently BANNED the holsters from their training programs is enough for me.

    I vast majority of schools/training programs have not banned or restricted this holster. I find that many instructors have their personal thoughts - that alone is not enough for me.

    I'll stick to more traditional retention methods (that also can't get gummed up by sand/mud if you end up on the ground).

    Any retention method can refuse to release or not function/retain given the right circumstances. Snaps/thumb breaks have refused to be pried open even.

    I've also heard reports that in a takeaway situation, it is very easy to break the holster off the paddle, resulting in, at best, a control struggle where you no longer have your belt as an advantage.

    Cite? Are you maybe confusing this with the video that circulated for a while about Fobus holsters?
    Your posting would seem to be an attack on a widely accepted and used product mentioning as reasons only those limitations recognized - there is no perfect holster. We each make our own choices to fit our own criteria and this holster is IMO a valid consideration.

    Yata hey
    Not so fast. When those ND's happen to skilled operators with years of experience both using and teaching weapons skills, you'd better pull your head out of the dark place it resides and pay attention.

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Loneviking wrote:
    Not so fast. When those ND's happen to skilled operators with years of experience both using and teaching weapons skills, you'd better pull your head out of the dark place it resides and pay attention.
    Insulting reply. Happens regularly when one wishes to force their opinion on another.

    NDs are negligent (operator induced) discharges and their years of experience offers no defense for them.

    I accept the evidence offered for consideration in good faith but reject out of hand being told that I "better" do anything. Fortunately your advice is worth what I paid for it.

    In the meanwhile, I will use the holster(s) of my choice until you start paying for them and then only if you buy what I prefer.

    Have a nice day.
    Yata hey








    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    'Shrug'...getting shot hurts. I guess you're going to have to figure that out for yourself. The medical bills will probably approach $50,000, so I hope you have good insurance.

    Why someone would choose a potentially dangerous holster over, for example, a Safariland that gives equal retention ability without the danger is beyond me.

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    I'm with Elkad and LoneViking. I would stay away from them. The reason your finger slips in the trigger guard is because your fine motor skills go **** up under stress. When that happens you combine things like pressing that lever and putting your finger in the guard because it's a natural movement/the next step in shooting. The more you train the less likely it is to happen under stress, but a lot of people don't train as much as they say they do, or think they do. A guy I've trained with shot himself in the leg with one of those things and he has had A LOT of training. Accidents happen and some can be avoided by making better decisions.

    That being said, make your own decision and I'll send you flowers in the hospital.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Loneviking wrote:
    'Shrug'...getting shot hurts. I guess you're going to have to figure that out for yourself. The medical bills will probably approach $50,000, so I hope you have good insurance.

    Why someone would choose a potentially dangerous holster over, for example, a Safariland that gives equal retention ability without the danger is beyond me.
    What seems to be missed here is that no Serpa has ever caused a gun to fire. In this litigious society in which we live if this holster design were so faulty/dangerous, someone somewhere would have filed a suit and won damages. Hope I'm not giving any body ideas.:?

    I personally find the Safariland release unnatural and disturbs my grip acquisition - although I admit training could overcome that. As to the latter, same can be said for the use of a Serpa.

    As in choice of caliber and weapon design, I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree on holster selection also.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Out of curiousity I did a bit of experimentation with both my sidearms (unloaded of course) for which I have Blackhawk CQC holsters. I also tried the same experiments with my Minotaur IWB. These are my primary carry holsters.

    I draw as I was taught in modern handgun classes with my index finger straight with the obvious goal of indexing it along the frame under the slide. From a squared up or bladed draw position with the Serpas set to the first forward cant position (my typical carry position) performing a standard, straight finger draw, my index finger ended up properly indexed consistently.

    However, if I draw with a bent/curved finger, especially if while twisting my hips forward as if turning away from a weapon or to run for cover, it was quite easy for my finger to end up in the trigger guard. So if you use a bent finger to release the Serpa retention lever you could very well end up with your finger inside the trigger guard. I even inadvertently recreated an ND with my XD that would likely have entered my lower abdomen or upper hip if I had been using live rounds.

    BUT, and here is the other side of all this, if I draw with a bent finger from my Minotaur or two other non-retention holsters I tried, I ended up with my finger inside the trigger guard just as consistently as I did drawing from the Serpa with a bent finger.

    My take away from this experimentation is that there is a VERY good reason I have been consistently trained to draw with my index finger pointed straight and that it is a VERY good idea to continue training in this manner. Furthermore, drawing with a bent finger from ANY holster is a recipe for ending up with your finger inside the trigger guard and on a "snatch" draw a good way to shoot yourself. Given my little bit of testing here, I am inclined to think that such NDs with Serpas are related to improper indexing of the booger hook from the beginning of the draw rather than an inherent design flaw.

    So, just like with anything else, the Serpas are not for everyone. If your sidearm/hand size or habits are such that you cannot effectively release the Serpa retention and draw smoothly with a straight finger, it is NOT the holster for you or at least not for you with that sidearm.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    deepdiver wrote:
    snip....
    My take away from this experimentation is that there is a VERY good reason I have been consistently trained to draw with my index finger pointed straight and that it is a VERY good idea to continue training in this manner. Furthermore, drawing with a bent finger from ANY holster is a recipe for ending up with your finger inside the trigger guard and on a "snatch" draw a good way to shoot yourself. Given my little bit of testing here, I am inclined to think that such NDs with Serpas are related to improper indexing of the booger hook from the beginning of the draw rather than an inherent design flaw
    +1 You have demonstrated my contention with your experiment.

    Disclaimer: Deepdiver & I have no family or fraternal relationship. Neither was any compensation offered nor received for his posting herein.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Very cool that you did that. Good post. Doesn't change my view any, but that was still great.

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    However, if I draw with a bent/curved finger, especially if while twisting my hips forward as if turning away from a weapon or to run for cover, it was quite easy for my finger to end up in the trigger guard.

    And you don't call that a design flaw? If your hiney isn't in motion when going into action in a gunfight you are probably going to be shot. You have to be able to draw safely when on the run.

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Loneviking wrote:
    However, if I draw with a bent/curved finger, especially if while twisting my hips forward as if turning away from a weapon or to run for cover, it was quite easy for my finger to end up in the trigger guard.
    And you don't call that a design flaw? If your hiney isn't in motion when going into action in a gunfight you are probably going to be shot. You have to be able to draw safely when on the run.
    No.

    He very clearly stated, "I have been consistently trained to draw with my index finger pointed straight and that it is a VERY good idea to continue training in this manner. Furthermore, drawing with a bent finger from ANY holster is a recipe for ending up with your finger inside the trigger guard and on a "snatch" draw a good way to shoot yourself. Given my little bit of testing here, I am inclined to think that such NDs with Serpas are related to improper indexing of the booger hook from the beginning of the draw rather than an inherent design flaw."

    Please reread complete post by deepdiver

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    And that my friends is why I continue to pay the exorbitant membership dues for this site.

  23. #23
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    Yeah, sure, try it while on the run. At least three of your other fingers are going to be curled while wrapping themselves around the gun butt. The shape and position of the Serpa is such that you'll have a hard time releasing it 'on the run' without bending your finger. If you are standing still and drawing straight up--fine, but that isn't real life.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Loneviking wrote:
    Yeah, sure, try it while on the run. At least three of your other fingers are going to be curled while wrapping themselves around the gun butt. The shape and position of the Serpa is such that you'll have a hard time releasing it 'on the run' without bending your finger. If you are standing still and drawing straight up--fine, but that isn't real life.
    *shrug* As I concluded earlier, the Serpa, like any other holster, isn't for everyone. I have drawn on the move many times practicing cold and hot without issue. I find that the shape and position of the Serpa is such that it encourages me to keep my finger straight and properly indexed as it is designed to do. I found it especially helpful in learning the muscle memory of a straight finger draw when I got back into firearms a few years ago and now I draw in that manner with any holster and any sidearm without thinking about it.

    IMO, if that is not the case for an individual, that person should be carrying with a different holster. In other words, I think the above sentence should have read: "The shape and position of the Serpa is such that I have a hard time releasing it 'on the run' without bending my finger." We all have preferences with firearms and equipment and can disagree as to our favorites and discuss why.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  25. #25
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    And all this discussion (and some testing) is why I posted what I did, including the mildly inflammatory tone.

    The possibility does exist. Yes, training will help you avoid it.

    With a classic thumb-break holster, you'd still index, but you don't need that inward pressure anywhere. Even with a poor draw under stress, your index finger should still be braced extended, not pressing inward. Other retention holsters direct the force away from the trigger (granted, making the release and draw more awkward)

    With the trigger finger doing the releasing on the Serpa, you are applying pressure very close to where you don't want to be. Get your finger curved, or just have short fingers that don't reach past the guard, or draw while moving, all while under stress, and the potential to inadvertently get your "boogerhook on the bang switch" goes way up.

    There is a lot of individual decision here. Length of fingers, angle/position of holster, training level, type of weapon, etc. All impact it.

    If you have long fingers and carry a 1911 (2 external safeties, one of which you shouldn't be messing with till the weapon is swinging to the target(or even later)), you probably have some leeway.

    Stubby fingers with a squirtgun triggered weapon (Glock) with no external safeties would likely lean more towards the danger side.

    Traditional da/sa weapons are probably somewhere in the middle.

    I just want people to be aware of the potential dangers. Every holster has shortcomings in some area. Shooting yourself in the femoral artery is quite likely lethal. Use it if you want, but at least get the training barrel, airsoft clone, or snapcaps out and test the hell out of it yourself. With a coat. With someone pulling on your purse straps. With your seatbelt on. While dragging a child (or sack of cement to simulate) towards cover. Etc..

    deepdiver tested his. Now he knows how the issue applies to himself, and can do some extra drill to avoid it (or select a different holster). My goal is for all of you do the same.

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