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Thread: Some Thoughts

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    SFCRetired wrote:
    That said, is it perhaps the perception of a small percentage of police officers that we "civilians" are trespassing on what they perceive as "police prerogatives"?

    Absolutely.This has been pointed outbefore in these type of threads and many people agreewith it, myself included. A good number of cops would like to think they're above the average citizen and in an exclusive, special privilegeclub (they forget that they're employees of the average citizen). Anything you do that might make them feel less superior or make their club seem less exclusive is going to offend them. You pretty much answered your own question.

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    A small percentage (or in some departments a large percentage) of cops get into it for all the wrong reasons. If someone wants to compensate for their own insecurities, so they become a cop, its reasonably easy to understand why they would feel like we are cramping their style, because we have the same level of firepower they do. Takes away their feeling of superiority. In Arizona there are a fair number of such idiots, but no cop will ever bug you about OCing. It all boils down to whether or not we have done our part, not the quality of the cops themselves.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    nitrovic wrote:
    What does this story have to do with opencarry or gun rights? Or are we just throwing jabs at police officers again? The story is below, it has NOTHING to do with open carrying (which is very misleading in the thread name)
    IMHO it is relevent. SFCRetiredwas just asking why LEO's oppose open carry. Is it that openly carrying a firearm is like stepping on their toes and wandering in their territory. The story relates to a mindset that if you wear a t-shirt that say"POLICE" again you are wandering into their territory and they don't like it. Now ina world according to GumiBear, wearing a black t-shirt with large white block letters that say "POLICE" is not a good idea, we've all seen officers wearing this attire. Now should he have been ticketed for it? I'd say no, but awarning not towear it again would suffice.

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    nitrovic wrote:
    This story is about a man wearing a "police" t-shirt. NOT OPEN CARRYING.

    True but it falls into the police philosphy for a small majority, that this is "for me, not you" just as open carry does. I'd also like to point out that the OPsaid "is it perhaps the perception of a small percentage of police officers that we "civilians" are trespassing on what they perceive as "police prerogatives?" He/She shows that the majority of police may notfeel this way. So I don't see this as police bashing at all, but tieing in the t-shirt to open carry for a small percentage of our officers. The OP apparently sees that the t-shirt is no big deal and neither is open carry, but a small percentage of police see this as "Their perogative" and we as civilians should not have that perogative. I feel he/she was only tieing the two "no big deal" events toa small percentage of "police perogative" mentality that may see it as a big deal.

    Besides what is misleading? The topic of the discussion is "Some Thoughts..." In the OP's post he/she said;

    "BTW, check out this link:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,474324,00.html


    nothing in the link, this statement, or the topic of discussionsuggests it will be open carry related. However, the orginal question that spurred the discussionIS open carry related which conforms to forum rules.


    edit: spelling

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    And this is what exactly I got from your original post. I too have a VERY HIGH regard for our officers. They have a stressful job and have to deal with the low lifes of society everyday and my hat is off to them. There is no way I could do their job, and when I am pulled over I try to do everything I can to diffuse their stress and am respectful as possible! I feel every ranger, officer, sheriff, deputy deserves my respect until such time as they loose it, but even then I will always remain civl to them. I've even had an officer one time knock 10 miles off my speeding ticket because when he pulled me over I turned on my flashers, turned off my engine, place the keys on the dash, turned on the interior light, rolled down the window,and kept both hands on top of the steering wheel. I was respectful and understanding. He told me why he cut me some slack and thanked me for my actions and asked if I had family that were officers, I said no but I understand that the job they do can suck at times and I don't want to be one of those sucky times.

    edit: Grammar, ok I suck

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    SFCRetired wrote:
    I've been trying to understand why some police officers have such a negative reaction to a citizen legally open carrying a firearm.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that, prior to WWII, open carry was quite common in most areas. After WWII, open carry became a privilege of the police while on duty.

    That said, is it perhaps the perception of a small percentage of police officers that we "civilians" are trespassing on what they perceive as "police prerogatives"?

    BTW, check out this link:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,474324,00.html

    I would never have thought, not in a million years, that wearing a T-shirt with the word "Police" on it would constitute impersonating an officer.
    First off... we all worry about fake cops breaking down our door and not knowing if they are real or not.

    Why would we NOT thinkthat wearing such logo apparel would be illegal? Knowing it is permissible for anyonetowear "POLICE" logo apparel is rather scary.

    Since when has it become fashionable to wear clothing thatmakes you appear to be the "POLICE" ??? People who are not actually the police and wearsuch ashirt are mall ninjas.



    In Virginia, you can wear policelabeled clothingand even a badge that says the same. The impersonation only comes when you actually try to use the position of a police officer to gain something.



    So your post about police reaction was fine. But why you needed to post about the POLICE shirt worn by a guy in a bar was pointless.



    I suspect the police do not like people pretending to be them. They already have 1% of cops giving them a bad name and now they can increase the number due to citizens that want toplay police while they get drunk in the bar. Nobody knows the guy is not a cop. All they see a man wearing a shirt clearly identifying the wearer as a the POLICE and getting stupid drunk.

    From my knowledge theposition of a police officeris very competitive and you are lucky to even get selected to attend the academy. Then you have to attend the academy for 6 months and hope you make it. Then another 3 months with a training officer.

    If you make it through all that youearned the right to wear that title "POLICE" on anything you wear. But now you have people who have not done any of it wanting to get credit for something they have not accomplished.

    I would be upset if some citizenstarted wearing military medals they were not awarded. But it is actually against the law in Virginia while wearing a POLICE shirt is not!!

    Go figure!


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    nitrovic wrote:
    I'm not doubting you had no ill intentions with this post. I just know from experience that the police haters will come on here and pile on. Happens every time here.
    nitrovicI couldn't agree more. It really irritates me, it's like saying everyone in the military are war mongers, when we know that isn't true. Are there bad cops? Sure but what job doesn't have panty wastes. but that doesn't mean everyone is bad. some folks have had bad experiences, I for one have not had any at all. The debate is good though and hopefully those LEO's that read this forum will see that not everyone are cocked and loaded at the smallest infraction of their action and remember that they too are human. Then again there are those here who have had bad experiences and understandably it has tainted them against most LEO's. The quest, at least for me, is to talk about it, debate it and come to a mutual understanding. Getting into the skull of our police is a good excercise to understand what we are up against when it comes to the open carry movement of all statesthat don't have it yet.It just better arms us to have a civil conversation with our local PD about our God given rights, or Darwin given rights if you are so inclined.

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    Devils Advocate wrote:
    First off... we all worry about fake cops breaking down our door and not knowing if they are real or not.

    Why would we NOT thinkthat wearing such logo apparel would be illegal? Knowing it is permissible for anyonetowear "POLICE" logo apparel is rather scary.

    Since when has it become fashionable to wear clothing thatmakes you appear to be the "POLICE" ??? People who are not actually the police and wearsuch ashirt are mall ninjas.



    In Virginia, you can wear policelabeled clothingand even a badge that says the same. The impersonation only comes when you actually try to use the position of a police officer to gain something.



    So your post about police reaction was fine. But why you needed to post about the POLICE shirt worn by a guy in a bar was pointless.



    I suspect the police do not like people pretending to be them. They already have 1% of cops giving them a bad name and now they can increase the number due to citizens that want toplay police while they get drunk in the bar. Nobody knows the guy is not a cop. All they see a man wearing a shirt clearly identifying the wearer as a the POLICE and getting stupid drunk.

    From my knowledge theposition of a police officeris very competitive and you are lucky to even get selected to attend the academy. Then you have to attend the academy for 6 months and hope you make it. Then another 3 months with a training officer.

    If you make it through all that youearned the right to wear that title "POLICE" on anything you wear. But now you have people who have not done any of it wanting to get credit for something they have not accomplished.

    I would be upset if some citizenstarted wearing military medals they were not awarded. But it is actually against the law in Virginia while wearing a POLICE shirt is not!!

    Go figure!
    +1 Devils Advocate

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    GumiBear wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    I'm not doubting you had no ill intentions with this post. I just know from experience that the police haters will come on here and pile on. Happens every time here.
    nitrovicI couldn't agree more. It really irritates me, it's like saying everyone in the military are war mongers, when we know that isn't true. Are there bad cops? Sure but what job doesn't have panty wastes. but that doesn't mean everyone is bad. some folks have had bad experiences, I for one have not had any at all. The debate is good though and hopefully those LEO's that read this forum will see that not everyone are cocked and loaded at the smallest infraction of their action and remember that they too are human. Then again there are those here who have had bad experiences and understandably it has tainted them against most LEO's. The quest, at least for me, is to talk about it, debate it and come to a mutual understanding. Getting into the skull of our police is a good excercise to understand what we are up against when it comes to the open carry movement of all statesthat don't have it yet.It just better arms us to have a civil conversation with our local PD about our God given rights, or Darwin given rights if you are so inclined.
    I see a group of people who have been stung by or heard abouta bad LEO interaction. TheyWANT to believe that this is how all LEOs arebecauseit is so easy to hate. It comes easy and you do not have to open yourself up to more heart break.

    Look at it this way guys and gals.

    When your date dumps you after just one night out, do you just believe that is how it is and not date any more? Do you cut off all contact the opposite sex because you KNOW what is going to happen every time you take them out to dinner?

    No!

    You keep dating! You will put up with it and take a chance. You put yourself out there and take the risk. You know not all dates are going to end up this way. You will eventually "get lucky".

    But why are you willing to do all that only to possibly get dumped again? Because you are hoping to actually get something at the end of the night that is well worth it.

    Most Americans have that mindset "What's in it for me?"

    What is in it for me if I be nice to a police officer? NOTHING! I could be nice only to have him be a jerk.

    So why not just be an a-hole form the start and beat him at his own game?

    Because not all police officers are you there to break your heart!

    Being a police officer is a job that many people want but few can qualify to do. Most police officers do it because they enjoy dealing with people. They have a desire to help others. They like giving back to their community.

    Sure, even in school we had 1% of the students that were bullies! We are not going to get away from that no matter where you go!!

    People here need to be honest withthemselves and get over it. Not all cops are bad so why dowe talking about it?

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    Sheriff wrote:
    SFCRetired wrote:
    I would never have thought, not in a million years, that wearing a T-shirt with the word "Police" on it would constitute impersonating an officer.
    The charge was dismissed. As it should have been.
    Yes, the charge was dismissed. Only because the state code requires something more to occur then display the work "POLICE" on your shirt.

    I see itbeing just as bad as the losersout therethat buy the look-a-like police cars with the spot lights. Some even add the deck lights that may or may not actually work.

    Some are citizensthat have police badges, scanners, and shotguns in their look-a-like cars. All because they want to be something they are not. They either do not qualify or they were a cop but got fired!

    You have to be mentally unstable to think you can play the part by takingso many the steps to look the part. People like this need some serious help.

    Eventually they start thinking they can do traffic stops and pull people over. Do a search and see how many citizens do this now!!

    It is funny when they pull over a real cop who is smart enough to ask for identification.

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    Sheriff wrote:
    Devils Advocate wrote:
    From my knowledge theposition of a police officeris very competitive and you are lucky to even get selected to attend the academy. Then you have to attend the academy for 6 months and hope you make it. Then another 3 months with a training officer.
    These statements are not accurate. Your knowledge is outdated. Departments nationwide are having to lower standards just to attract applicants, the application process is no longer "competitive". 33% of the most recent police academy graduating class in Atlanta, Georgia had criminal records when hired. And allacademies are not 6 months long, depends on the jurisdiction that hires you. And the actual time with a FTO (field training officer) varies. It can be 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, or an extended probation period depending on the rookies performance and evaluations.
    You are a dark cloud on this board and every time you show up you have nothing good to post about anything. You really are disgruntled. How long ago did they let you go?

    You want us to think that becauseGEORGIA may or may not have the best pool of candidates that ALL departments hire to these same low standards.

    Washington DC did the same thing a few years back when they could not get anyone to join their department. The place is a war zone and all the highly qualified people joined the departments in Virginia and Maryland.DC was forced to lower the standards or have nobody to work the streets.

    What would you have done? Stop loss like the military?

    So please stop your broad strokes of that bush that no longer paints in blue.

    The information I provided is an average and is current.

    And to be honest, it is off topic and there is no real need to really discuss it.

    The thread is more about lettingthe cop hatred go!

    1% are bullies like in high school. I have met bullies everyplace I have been. More good people than bullies out there.

    EDIT: Spelling error

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    I saw a news story not long after the 9/11 about alot of police departments suffering a shortage of manpower due to the fact that police officers who were non active reservists and NGwere being called to active duty. The departments had to lower standards in order to staff the departments. So they had to take less desirable recruits and less desirable former officers who had been fired or let go from other departments. This may be the cause of the increase in officers who are overstepping their bounds.


    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    SFCRetired wrote:
    I've been trying to understand why some police officers have such a negative reaction to a citizen legally open carrying a firearm.
    Who gives a crap about some block head wearing a police t-shirt.

    Back on Track. Does anyone have an opinion on the question at hand? I'm sure there are some that would say that no cop has ever had a negative reaction, ever! And some others that would say, all cops are facists and hate the people! Perhaps we could focus somewhere between these two extremes?



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    Devils Advocate wrote:
    Sheriff wrote:
    Devils Advocate wrote:
    From my knowledge the¬*position of a police officer¬*is very competitive and you are lucky to even get selected to attend the academy. Then you have to attend the academy for 6 months and hope you make it. Then another 3 months with a training officer.
    These statements are not accurate.¬* Your knowledge is outdated.¬* Departments nationwide are having to lower standards just to attract applicants, the application process is no longer "competitive".¬*¬* 33% of the most recent police academy graduating class in Atlanta, Georgia had criminal records when hired.¬* And all¬*academies are not 6 months long, depends on the jurisdiction that hires you.¬* And the actual time with a FTO (field training officer) varies.¬*¬*¬* It can be 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, or an extended probation period depending on the rookies performance and evaluations.
    You are a dark cloud on this board and every time you show up you have nothing good to post about anything. You really are disgruntled. How long ago did they let you go?

    You want us to think that because¬*GEORGIA may or may not have the best pool of candidates that ALL departments hire to these same low standards.

    Washington DC did the same thing a few years back when they could not get anyone to join their department. The place is a war zone and all the highly qualified people joined the departments in Virginia and Maryland.¬*DC was forced to lower the standards or have nobody to work the streets.

    What would you have done? Stop loss like the military?

    So please stop your broad strokes of that bush that no longer paints in blue.

    The information I provided is an average and is current.

    And to be honest, it is off topic and there is no real need to really discuss it.

    The thread is more about letting¬*the cop hatred go!

    1% are bullies like in high school. I have met bullies everyplace I have been. More good people than bullies out there.

    EDIT: Spelling error

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    Sheriff wrote:
    Devils Advocate wrote:
    DC was forced to lower the standards or have nobody to work the streets.
    Thank You! I rest my case.

    And it's happening all over the country, for various reasons. Even the Virginia State Police, the most pretegious law enforcement agency in the nation IMHO, has lowered their standards to recruit applicants. They now hire convicted drug abusers. The applicant simply can't have smoked mariquana two years prior to their application, or used cocaine/heroin five years prior to their application.

    Openings occur faster then departments can cram the new rookies through the academies. This in turn affects the quality of training the rookiesare receiving. And this could explain why so many cops don't know the gun laws in their localities now.
    I did not realize you had some "case" to prove here. Youdid not offer and actual evidence and only presented hearsay evidence to the jury. You want to testify as an expert witness on all the other police departments in the United Statesbut I submit that you are biased and disgruntled after being let goas a deputy.

    What you have to offer should not be accepted without written proof.

    Your humble "opinion" is easy to figure out sheriff. Doom and despair, always negative, and bringing dread to every thread. You are a dark cloud!

    I will try to shift this post back on topic.

    I suspect the academiesfocus on things that the officer is more likely to encounter on his or her daily shift. You can only teach someone just so muchor they will have information overload. You cannot possibly teach every important code section.

    As open carry grows what gun codes would need to actually be covered at the academy? Virginia is an open carry state. Done! What other gun codes do they need to know in relation to open carry?

    What other gun codes are there that they are failing to be taught and must know?

    Sure, we would like for them to know all the codes but let's be realistic about it. A police officer's job is far more than dealing with guns every day. They do so much more.

    There are a very small number of us that go out openly armed so it probablynot high on the list of things the officer will every encounter.

    Sheriffhas an answer to everything but most often that answer is based on his biased decision making process for being let go as a deputy and his arrest he keeps telling about in the third person.

    When a police officer sees one of us open carrying he will either know it is legal or he will suspect it is not and approach. Most cops are not looking to screw with you. There is the exceptionof the1% that do push their weight around. But most cops are not like that.

    What other "reaction" do you want to know about? His facial expression? If he rolled his eyes?

    Not all cops hate that we open carry. I can completely understand if they wonder why we do it since it is very unusual to see in our world today.

    And remember where police officers come from? The public sector filled with people who think open carry is against the law. Many citizens have beenreported to have a negative reaction to us open carrying. So why is it so important to know how the police feel about it? WHO CARES!

    If your feelings are going to be hurt then maybe you need to stay at home. People (citizens and police) are not all going to like seeingus armed out in public because they fear what people are capable of doing. The very reason why we open carry in the first place.

    Do not expect change overnight. It is going to take years and more exposure before it is seen as commonplace and openly accepted.

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    Sheriff wrote:
    nitrovic wrote:
    The standards today are far and away higher than they have ever been. It's extremely competitive and most departments only hire college graduates or prior military.
    It's very scary to think you actually believe some of the stuff you submit here. :shock:

    ARE YOU KIDDING???

    I could say the same about you.

    Please stop posting your propaganda to further your hatred of law enforcement. You are no longer adeputy sheriff. You just play one on the internet.

    You do not back up anything you say and I guess you want people to accept it based on yourforum name and your three decades in law enforcement.

    I can easily post fiction as fact to without having to back it up.

    If you want us to believe what you say, please take the time to cite it in the future. Your rants are getting old.

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