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Thread: Northern California - Community Service to Advance Open Carry

  1. #1
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    I have been absent from my cozy little internet community of late, and will be returning with some regularity once I have my computer and internet access restored.

    I do want to put out the word that I will be more active in the season to come- particularly to those who joined me this fall, when we had our little meet up in Anderson. I have been delinquent in my efforts in this past year- in part due to my new employment, which makes it difficult to engage in my activism. They have a no weapons policy.

    Because of the budget crisis, it has been announced that local law enforcement agencies will be reducing patrols. Announced to even those whose enterprise is wholly criminal, that they do not have the funding to keep officers on the beat.

    Criminal activity has been reported on an uptick, and blamed on our souring economy.

    I believe it is our civic duty not only to protect ourselves, but our community at large as well.

    It is with these facts in mind, that I'd like to take this activism toward community service- whether that is to do defense walks or community or highway litter pick-ups- I have not yet decided. It may well be a combination of events and activities.

    Drop me an email- or if you already have my mobile phone number- drop me a line. I would appreciate some imput.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
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    I've recently been considering forming a community watch group for my neighborhood. We already have a sign advertising that we have one... so why not actually form one?

    This would be a great way to get to know the neighbors AND introduce the neighborhood to open carry.
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    I would participate if something is organized in San Jose or in Bay Area.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    vladbutsky wrote:
    I would participate if something is organized in San Jose or in Bay Area.
    If you are at leastwilling to follow others in this endeavour, you certainly possess the strength to lead. Why not establish a local group of activistswhere you are from? It doesnt have to be formal- you could start out as a luncheon group like our friends in San Diego and broaden the effort into community service.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    I'm not ready yet to spearhedlocal OC movement. Not yet...

    I live in San Jose. Not very friendly for OC. I had multiple friendly discussions with local and very pro-gun police officer but even he was telling me that OC with loaded magazine is illegal and if he saw me with loaded mag on my belt even he would arrest me. Even after I shown him plenty of printouts he told me that even if I'm right about it he was still instructed that in public loaded mag = loaded weapon = arrest.

    So at the moment I'm hesitant to OC in San Jose. I just don't know where to begin and how to make it happen without being arrested...

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Well, perhaps we should get some money together and let that cop arrest you, and since he was aware in advance that the arrest was for legal activity we should get a very large award from the lawsuit.

    Anybody down for a small investment?

    Edit: So far the best reaction we've got is when the Sacramento PD became afraid that we would make a man with a gun call ourselves in order to video record the illegal arrest of an UOCer and sue for lots of money.

    Maybe it's time we did just that. Then maybe PDs all over the state would begin to give the law the respect that the SPD does.

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    ConditionThree wrote:
    Criminal activity has been reported on an uptick, and blamed on our souring economy.
    my wife just mentioned earlier today that she had been hearing more sirens around home lately. I think it's true also. Certainly seen a bit more crime in the news lately, but then again, they can print what they want, when they want, and have usually done so.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Well, perhaps we should get some money together and let that cop arrest you, and since he was aware in advance that the arrest was for legal activity we should get a very large award from the lawsuit.

    Anybody down for a small investment?

    Edit: So far the best reaction we've got is when the Sacramento PD became afraid that we would make a man with a gun call ourselves in order to video record the illegal arrest of an UOCer and sue for lots of money.

    Maybe it's time we did just that. Then maybe PDs all over the state would begin to give the law the respect that the SPD does.
    There must be a better way to educate PDs without maikg us look like we are in this for money.

    This is why some sort of comunity service looks attractive to me. It has a potential to generate more attention to OC without negativity.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    vladbutsky wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Well, perhaps we should get some money together and let that cop arrest you, and since he was aware in advance that the arrest was for legal activity we should get a very large award from the lawsuit.

    Anybody down for a small investment?

    Edit: So far the best reaction we've got is when the Sacramento PD became afraid that we would make a man with a gun call ourselves in order to video record the illegal arrest of an UOCer and sue for lots of money.

    Maybe it's time we did just that. Then maybe PDs all over the state would begin to give the law the respect that the SPD does.
    There must be a better way to educate PDs without maikg us look like we are in this for money.

    This is why some sort of comunity service looks attractive to me. It has a potential to generate more attention to OC without negativity.
    Community service is great for educating the populace. Lawsuits are the only way to educate police. Please do not conflate the education of these two separate groups.

    The police already think we're in it for the money; they brought the idea up. There is no longer anything to lose.

    Edit: BTW, have fun playing nice. The police are sure to change their tune now! :P

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    marshaul wrote:
    Community service is great for educating the populace. Lawsuits are the only way to educate police. Please do not conflate the education of these two separate groups.

    The police already think we're in it for the money; they brought the idea up. There is no longer anything to lose.

    Edit: BTW, have fun playing nice. The police are sure to change their tune now! :P
    To me educating populance is far more important task than dealing with PD.So I would like to spend my time wisely. Taking on PD seems to have very little "return on investments"(maybe I'm wrong about this though)

    P.S. I'm not scaredby police tuning into this conversation and I said what I said because I believe it is right.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    So it's right not to defend your rights using the established legal method of litigation?

    I fail to comprehend. Please elaborate.

    At any rate, you aren't doing a very good job educating the public when you don't OC because the police threaten you with arrest for doing so (within the confines of the law, no less), are you?

    I don't OC here in SF either. I wish I had the money for a lawsuit, because I'd win. :P Then maybe I could start to educate the public. :?

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    marshaul,I see your point that unless we start OC we will not get too far educating anyone. But I'm not ready to start my first OC in incorporated area with arrest :?

    How about a OC dinner somewhere between San Jose and SF? If we could get more people to join it would be a little easier go through it (at least for me). I wonder how many people would dare to try it in Silicon Valley...

    By the way, I'm planning to attend Nordyke Oral Arguments in SF in two weeks. We could discuss it overthere. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=137800

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Sure, I'd be happy to meet up for a little discussion at the Nordyke arguments.

    We've discussed doing a dinner in the area for a while now. I'm down as soon as those farther away decide there are enough attendees to make it worth their while.

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    ConditionThree wrote:
    I have been absent from my cozy little internet community of late, and will be returning with some regularity once I have my computer and internet access restored.

    I do want to put out the word that I will be more active in the season to come- particularly to those who joined me this fall, when we had our little meet up in Anderson. I have been delinquent in my efforts in this past year- in part due to my new employment, which makes it difficult to engage in my activism. They have a no weapons policy.

    Because of the budget crisis, it has been announced that local law enforcement agencies will be reducing patrols. Announced to even those whose enterprise is wholly criminal, that they do not have the funding to keep officers on the beat.

    Criminal activity has been reported on an uptick, and blamed on our souring economy.

    I believe it is our civic duty not only to protect ourselves, but our community at large as well.

    It is with these facts in mind, that I'd like to take this activism toward community service- whether that is to do defense walks or community or highway litter pick-ups- I have not yet decided. It may well be a combination of events and activities.

    Drop me an email- or if you already have my mobile phone number- drop me a line. I would appreciate some imput.
    I too have been absent lately, new job, new house, and an emachines computer that would refuse to work!


    Anyways... you know I am up for any type of events to further the OC movement. I think defense walks on the river trail and the surrounding neighborhoods would be good. I wouldn't mind collecting trash on the roadways either, something to get the public to notice us

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    Well I am not sure if anyone is still interested in this thread/topic anymore, but if your up in the Sacramento area and you want to set something up for the community service for the awareness of OC then let me know I am more then willing to put my time in.

    As for the whole setting up the local PD or Sheriffs department, I am not up for that. I am not interested in getting arrested, but I don't want to try a dupe the LE in my area, just do what ever I can to make sure they and my community acknowledges the constitutional right and is not frightened or discouraged by it.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    D53 wrote:
    As for the whole setting up the local PD or Sheriffs department, I am not up for that. I am not interested in getting arrested, but I don't want to try a dupe the LE in my area, just do what ever I can to make sure they and my community acknowledges the constitutional right and is not frightened or discouraged by it.
    I don't see how it's setting them up for anything. They would be free to diffuse such a "plan" completely simply by following the law.

    Seriously, that's akin to arguing that it would be "setting up" a sheriff or police chief to apply for a permit suspecting or knowing you will be denied, with a backup plan to sue if in fact you are denied when you legally should not be. But that's a very tactic that must be (and is being) used to get standing to sue in court over illegal/unconstitutional "may-issue" LTC licensing.

    If we want to make similar progress we should use the same tactics. If police openly threaten to illegally arrest anyone who does something which is perfectly legal just because they don't like it, the only proper solution is to have the court set them straight as to what exactly the law they must enforce is.

    Or, the police could just "back down" and enforce the law, not what they wish the law was.

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    marshaul wrote:
    I don't see how it's setting them up for anything. They would be free to diffuse such a "plan" completely simply by following the law.

    Seriously, that's akin to arguing that it would be "setting up" a sheriff or police chief to apply for a permit suspecting or knowing you will be denied, with a backup plan to sue if in fact you are denied when you legally should not be. But that's a very tactic that must be (and is being) used to get standing to sue in court over illegal/unconstitutional "may-issue" LTC licensing.

    If we want to make similar progress we should use the same tactics. If police openly threaten to illegally arrest anyone who does something which is perfectly legal just because they don't like it, the only proper solution is to have the court set them straight as to what exactly the law they must enforce is.

    Or, the police could just "back down" and enforce the law, not what they wish the law was.



    Please don't get me wrong I agree that alot, not all, but a lot of LE I noticed set a bad example. I am not trying to bash LE, I moved to Sacramento so I could apply and join the SD, but lately I have really lost a lot o respect for LE by the way they act. I understand that they are here to regulate and uphold the law, but at the same time, I don't see how brakeing it or bending the law because you are LEO is right. If I would have continued down the LE path and went to POST, my whole though would be lead by example.



    BUt back on topic, yes we should not have to worry about harassment for our constitutional right, but we do. And if he do something that is truelly justified to prove a point, like video taping an arrest for OC or trying to set something like that up, all that does is make the OC community look like a group of 2nd Amendment extremist that want to entrap LEOs. Atleast that is what I gather from other forums and from talking to others about it at gunshops or the range. I ask LEO's everytime I see them what they think about OC and I always have the californiaopencarry flyer in my backpocket. Most of the time I get the same why do citizens need guns, its just stupid. But I have heard 2 postive remarks from 2 seperate LEOs about OC, but they were upset about the the incident they read about in the flyer that was given to them at their department. This is the flyer which I am sure we have all read.

    THESE ARE COPIED AND PASTED FROM THE CALIFORNIAOPENCARRY.ORG WEBSITE.
    [*]SPD OC Memo (source) [*]RTTAC OC Bulletin (source) [*]CPOA OC Memo (source) [*]LA DA OC Memo (source) [*]LASD OC Memo (source) [*]SDPD OC Bulletin (source) [*]OCSD OC Bulletin (source)



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    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    to reply to your thread I don't think anyone has been doing anything lately, but I am not 100% on that since I have been gone for a while. But depending on the time and location down in San Jose, I might be able to come down from Sacramento and do my part. as for
    and, as far as educating police departments... maybe we can invite a cop to join us? maybe its a bad idea, but maybe not. if we decide to have a meet we should contact the local PD and maybe invite an officer to join us, (whenthey are off duty sometime) we could go over the relevant laws with them, show them that we arent a bunch of extremists andif the cops do get called, they will recognise one of their own and be a less intimidated, and maybe they will all go back to share their experience and what they have learned. after reading the PD and SD bulletins, it seems that many of the departments just think OC is a way of getting the departments in trouble, having a leo there would probably help spread the word that we understand they arent all out to get us, just as we arent out just to get them. just a thought.
    I know 2 cops and both would not participate in such an event due to that fact that they coul catch a lot of flak from their department for it. Both guys I know are down in the Bay area and both in favor for OC, but just don't want to deal with any BS from there department for participating.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    dirtykoala wrote:
    P.S. i agree, if we try to make our own little "sting operation" against the cops we are going to be taken as seriously as a tree dwelling berkley student trying to make a dramatic point.
    Right, because using the courts to assert the law, and protect our rights in the face of police threatening to illegally arrest law-abiding citizens, is not going to be taken seriously, while "educating the community" by OCing bright pink or blue guns, and passing out flyers in places where the police still plan to arrest anyone who actually does legally OC, is going to be taken seriously.

    :quirky

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that sentence is syntactically decodable to its intended (sarcasm-laden) meaning if you read it carefully.

    What I'm saying is people are getting too fixed on the idea of a my suggestion being "sting" (which it wouldn't be), and forgetting that the cops are the ones initiating action by breaking the law.

    What I'm saying is if we want to be taken seriously we should use the courts to assert our rights and the actual law, like Calguns has been doing for some time now.

    What I'm saying is you're all wrong, and litigation will cause us to be taken much more seriously than saying "No, I don't want to "set up" anybody, that wouldn't seem nice enough. I want to educate the community first!". Especially when you can't educate in the first place, because the police illegally prohibit legal OC.

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    Marshaul is right. The most effective path to protecting our rights is by litigation. While there is no harm in simply desiring to inform your fellow citizens, it is a fruitless effort since our fellow citizens generally side with the LEOs or simply don't give a damn enough to do anything.

    The only way we will restore and preserve our rights is through litigation.
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    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    dirtykoala wrote:
    Marshaul, please forgive me for not picking up on got sarcastic tone in your font. (that was sarcastic)
    What I'm saying is while I agree that having a video cammera there to prove that leo screwed up, if they do that is, wouldnt be a bad idea, but setting it up with a third party is such a hysterical liberal thing to do. We could keep a cammera with us to document our day of community service and upload the video to YouTube to help educate public, and it could help our defence if leo shows up. But I feel like if we use a third party to "catch the police" and main stream media uses it, most of the ignorant public will see us as a threat, as main stream media generally portrays guns as a threat. I've never heard a news report about a man with a gun, and then nothing happened.
    Marshaul, you come of as a liberal that is pro gun, with a stance of "I'm protecting my right and f the big man" take a step back and try looking at your rights from a more conservative point of view.
    The idea of having some "third party" videotaping from a distance, is for those cases (rare though they may be)where a LEO might not "appreciate" being taped, and either confiscate the recording equipment as "evidence" which then mysteriously gets erased before it gets to the station. It might seem paranoid, but, if we don't protect ourselves from out of control LEOs, who will.

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