Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: Voice Recorders

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    So ive decided that when I get my paycheck on the 7th Im gonna buy a good quality recorder, but my question is if and when you are terry stopped do you leave the recorder in your pocket and press record, or do you hold it out in the open while the LEO is talking to you. And do you have to notify the LEO if you are indeed recording him.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961

    Post imported post

    I open carry my firearms and conceal my voice recorder.

    No requirement to inform a police oficer that he/she is being recorded.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    thanks thundar, but ya know it makes me sad that I feel I have to ask a question like that and verify if something as simple as using a voice recorder is not illegal even though I know I am guranteed the protection of the 1st amendment. theres many things that I know I should be able to do in this "FREE" country, but I routinely have to check up on to see if there is not a law against itand even if there isnt it is even worse that I am advised to carry a digital voice recorder in case somoeone thinks there is

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
    Posts
    3,806

    Post imported post

    People act differently when they know they are being recorded.

    I prefer to remember the moment in its truest form.

    I will simply leave my statement at that.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  5. #5
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    Fortunately, in Virginia, there is no requirement to notify all parties of the recording. This has been well hashed out in prior threads here.

    There is nothing good that can come of you informing a LEO that you are recording them.

    It has been documented that in some cases, LEOs have illegally ordered people to stop video taping during an encounter, and illegally threatened arrest if they did not. As is often said, you will never win an argument "on the side of the road", they have the presumption of correctness, the weapon, and the court's backing that officer saftey outweighs all other considerations.

    Fortunately, the vast majority of LEOs are fine upstanding people. But if you encounter one who wants to bend the rules, there isn't anything you can do about it at the time. Tipping them off that you are keeping a record would not be in your best interest.

    TFred

  6. #6
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Just a "wannabe" in Mtn. Top, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    1,441

    Post imported post

    Remember folks, it depends on the state. As stated above, one party consent in Va. Other states (like Pa.) are ALL party consent. Their are exceptions of course but just noteworthy to point out.



  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Some where in Rockbridge County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    300

    Post imported post

    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Remember folks, it depends on the state. As stated above, one party consent in Va. Other states (like Pa.) are ALL party consent. Their are exceptions of course but just noteworthy to point out.

    This is very true.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    VA Beach, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    558

    Post imported post

    The price of the recorder alone will be worth watching some cop's mouth drop when you bring it out in court. This is how it should be, us doing the secret recording and watching the governments agents.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Arlington, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    252

    Post imported post

    GLENGLOCKER wrote:
    The price of the recorder alone will be worth watching some cop's mouth drop when you bring it out in court. This is how it should be, us doing the secret recording and watching the governments agents.
    Only because the bad ones know they can lie with impunity because the court always believes the officer over the ordinary person

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
    Posts
    3,806

    Post imported post

    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Remember folks, it depends on the state. As stated above, one party consent in Va. Other states (like Pa.) are ALL party consent. Their are exceptions of course but just noteworthy to point out.

    Wait, does that apply in public places, or to people performing official govern-mental duties?
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682

    Post imported post

    It all depends on the circumstances. Almost all the time I start out with the recorder in my shirt pocket or on a lanyard around my neck, because that's how it is carried. I've practiced enough to hit the "record" button using a seemingly innocent pass of the hand (hand to mouth to cover cough or stroking of chin).

    There are times when I pull the recorder out to make it plainly clear that the event is being recorded. So far the occassions when I've done that have been very public and involved repeating a question so as to require the other person(s) to either give an answer they would rather not give, or to document that they refuse to respond. Some may recall the conversation with the Capitol Police sergeant regarding the question of whether open carry with a CHP was allowed in the General Assembly Building. The point was to get him to eitherproduce the official written policy that backed up his claim and allow it to be reviewed, or to cause him to question his interpretation of what the official policy was. Holding the recorder out in plain sight and repeatedly asking him "Is that your personal opinion or is there a written policy or rule we can look at?" caused him to decide 1) that he was not sure what the official policy/rule was, and 2) to retreat up the chain of command for someone with a higher rank to take the heat in case his position was not in fact correct.

    While I'm not going to suggest one way as being better than another, I will add this recommendation if you are using a recorder: ask questions about what is happening and what the other party/ies are doing, and repeat those questions. (Not just "Am I being detained?" and"Why am I being detained?" but questions like "Do you think it is safe to try to remove my handgun from the holster that way?" and "Why are looking inside my car when I refused to allow you to search it?") Also, if your recorder is "discovered" and an attempt is made to take it away from you, discuss that fact so it is recorded. Repeatedly state what is happening ("Officer X is trying to take my recorder out of my shirt pocket.", that you are not breaking any law by recording, and that the attempt to remove the recorder is tampering with evidence ("Officer X is trying to destroy evidence of this event by taking away my recorder.")

    My experience is that in most situations nothing will be said about a recorder that is not brought out into the open, and that bringing a recorder out in the open will increase the level of dislike shown to you by the party being recorded, but will also cause them to be more careful about what they assert as absolute fact.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  12. #12
    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Loudoun County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    683

    Post imported post

    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Remember folks, it depends on the state. As stated above, one party consent in Va. Other states (like Pa.) are ALL party consent. Their are exceptions of course but just noteworthy to point out.

    I would imagine as the OP's info states he is from the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the question is being asked in the Virginia forum. . .one should be able to reason out that any responses to this thread applys to. . . .which Commonwealth of the union? Anyone, anyone?

    That's right! VIRGINIA.

    (Apoligies to PA Pat. I've been made to come into the office today, which should just be a friggin holiday to begin with; grumble grumble)
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

  13. #13
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961

    Post imported post

    ChinChin wrote:
    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Remember folks, it depends on the state. As stated above, one party consent in Va. Other states (like Pa.) are ALL party consent. Their are exceptions of course but just noteworthy to point out.

    I would imagine as the OP's info states he is from the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the question is being asked in the Virginia forum. . .one should be able to reason out that any responses to this thread applys to. . . .which Commonwealth of the union? Anyone, anyone?

    That's right! VIRGINIA.

    (Apoligies to PA Pat. I've been made to come into the office today, which should just be a friggin holiday to begin with; grumble grumble)
    My response was specific to VA, but PA Patriot has a point - remember the opinions apply only to Virginia.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  14. #14
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Just a "wannabe" in Mtn. Top, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    1,441

    Post imported post

    I would imagine as the OP's info states he is from the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the question is being asked in the Virginia forum. . .one should be able to reason out that any responses to this thread applys to. . . .which Commonwealth of the union? Anyone, anyone?

    That's right! VIRGINIA.

    (Apoligies to PA Pat. I've been made to come into the office today, which should just be a friggin holiday to begin with; grumble grumble)
    I think asumptions are dangerous Especialy when discussing state specific legal info.

    I fully understood that the context of the Q was *most likely* in regard to Va. law (kind of why I pointed that out in my reply ). I did not see "Va." in the question or any of the replies. Do to this reason I was simply seeking to add a little "more info", for clarity sake.

    Seeing "yes, you can do XYZ" repeatedly in a forum runs the risk that people will forget that this legal condition is specific to their state and can (and do) run afoul of the law when they travel to another state.


  15. #15
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Just a "wannabe" in Mtn. Top, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    1,441

    Post imported post

    AbNo wrote:
    Wait, does that apply in public places, or to people performing official govern-mental duties?
    There are exceptions... There is a thread running in the Pa. forum on exactly this if you want to explore the Pa. law and exceptions closer.... (I don't want to continue the OT to Va. stuff in here )


  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    VA Beach, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    558

    Post imported post

    Good point Sheriff. (This thread is probably in the Thread Closed Danger Zone now) I just got done reading Constitutional Chaos What Happens When The Government Breaks Its Own Laws By Judge Andrew Napolitano. He threw a lot of cases out when he knew police were lying and making up evidence and he says A LOT of them have no problem doing it. In one case a good friend of his came in his court and lied and he knew it just looking at him.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    If4400 posts and being a Founders Club member counts for anything, I want to throw my weight around a little.

    WHY ARE THERE NO CITES FOR THE ASSERTIONS OF LAW IN SOME OF THE EARLIER POSTS?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    As to the OPs questions.

    1) Its tactically not a good idea to inform the LEO. If he's touchy on the subject, or just a bad cop, your recording or recorder may "disappear". Also, as an extreme, a really bad cop might even be pushed into a corner--he's been recorded saying things that can get him harshly disciplined or fired (if he's been warned for earlier similar incidents). Now, backed into a corner, he has no choice but to arrest you on false charges so he can justify the search-incident-to-arrest thatalso just happens to let him get his hands on your recorder, which of course completely disappears by the time you get to the magistrate's office.

    2) Regarding whether you legally are required totell the officer he is being recorded, here is thepertinent part of the law my forum mates have been avoiding giving you:

    2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception.(emphasis mine)

    You should read the entire law. You can read it here:

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...00+cod+19.2-62
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    The south land
    Posts
    1,230

    Post imported post

    Sheriff wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    1) Its tactically not a good idea to inform the LEO. If he's touchy on the subject, or just a bad cop, your recording or recorder may "disappear". Also, as an extreme, a really bad cop might even be pushed into a corner--he's been recorded saying things that can get him harshly disciplined or fired (if he's been warned for earlier similar incidents). Now, backed into a corner, he has no choice but to arrest you on false charges so he can justify the search-incident-to-arrest thatalso just happens to let him get his hands on your recorder, which of course completely disappears by the time you get to the magistrate's office.
    To take this one step further.... if a cop has made some pretty incriminating remarks on the police radio frequency to dispatch or a fellow cop, or if the the cop has received a transmission from dispatch that has ruined his day during a false arrest for example -- there's a pretty good likelihood that the 911 tapes will be "accidentally" destroyed. Been there, done that. Subpoena issued for tapes, tapes destroyed. We actuallyhad a 911 dispatcher who testified he was assigned to cut the tapes into pieces no longer than 1" each one day.
    Which brings up one question I have--is radio traffic during a traffic stop recorded? For example--if I were to get pulled over, or stopped during a walk, jog and so on--would the radio traffic from that stop be recorded? You said 911 tapes are recorded--which I can understand, but what about cross talk from the radio traffic--say between a LEO and dispatch, or between LEOs?

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Bluefield, West Virginia, USA
    Posts
    113

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception.
    Wouldn't that mean that if you recorded anything from the officers radio, you'd be breaking the law?

    Even if he gave consent to record, if 3rd parties were talking, you'd still be wrong?

    I can't give a cite, but I seem to remember a case of a cellphone video of alleged police brutality resulted in a charge of wiretapping, because police radio transmissions were recorded. I can't even say what state it happened in though.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Elkad wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception.
    Wouldn't that mean that if you recorded anything from the officers radio, you'd be breaking the law?

    Even if he gave consent to record, if 3rd parties were talking, you'd still be wrong?

    I can't give a cite, but I seem to remember a case of a cellphone video of alleged police brutality resulted in a charge of wiretapping, because police radio transmissions were recorded. I can't even say what state it happened in though.
    Oh, I imagine it could be attempted.

    Some jurisdictions have court cases saying there is no expectation of privacy in public, and others have court cases saying public officials or police aren't protected while performing official duties.

    I don't know if we have any such rulings in this state or federal district.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Hampton, Va, ,
    Posts
    623

    Post imported post

    Elkad wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception.
    Wouldn't that mean that if you recorded anything from the officers radio, you'd be breaking the law?

    Even if he gave consent to record, if 3rd parties were talking, you'd still be wrong?

    I can't give a cite, but I seem to remember a case of a cellphone video of alleged police brutality resulted in a charge of wiretapping, because police radio transmissions were recorded. I can't even say what state it happened in though.
    AFAIK police radio transmissionsare in thepublic domain and can be recorded by anyone. I believe the cite listed above is in regard to private conversations and wiretapping. AFAIK apolice officer is a public servant and what he sayswhile in the performance of his duties is fair game for recording. That is why they don't like to be recorded because it can get them in trouble down the line.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    mobeewan wrote:
    Elkad wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception.
    Wouldn't that mean that if you recorded anything from the officers radio, you'd be breaking the law?

    Even if he gave consent to record, if 3rd parties were talking, you'd still be wrong?

    I can't give a cite, but I seem to remember a case of a cellphone video of alleged police brutality resulted in a charge of wiretapping, because police radio transmissions were recorded. I can't even say what state it happened in though.
    AFAIK police radio transmissionsare in thepublic domain and can be recorded by anyone. I believe the cite listed above is in regard to private conversations and wiretapping. AFAIK apolice officer is a public servant and what he sayswhile in the performance of his duties is fair game for recording. That is why they don't like to be recorded because it can get them in trouble down the line.
    Sounds like a good defense to me.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Manassas, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    115

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception. (emphasis mine)
    What would constitute a "party" to the communication? Say you're confronted by an officer for open carrying and your buddy is with you and has a voice recorder. He does not participate in the discussion, but is well within earshot. What if it is not clear to the officer that he is your associate (for whatever reason). Can he legally record the conversation?

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    If you consent, then yes he could record it (caveat: In states that allow one party approval, like VA). The key is given prior consent, so if you know you're buddy is recording and you've told him it's ok, you've given the required consent.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •