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Voice Recorders

MirkoCrocop

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So ive decided that when I get my paycheck on the 7th Im gonna buy a good quality recorder, but my question is if and when you are terry stopped do you leave the recorder in your pocket and press record, or do you hold it out in the open while the LEO is talking to you. And do you have to notify the LEO if you are indeed recording him.
 

MirkoCrocop

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thanks thundar, but ya know it makes me sad that I feel I have to ask a question like that and verify if something as simple as using a voice recorder is not illegal even though I know I am guranteed the protection of the 1st amendment. theres many things that I know I should be able to do in this "FREE" country, but I routinely have to check up on to see if there is not a law against it:banghead:and even if there isnt it is even worse that I am advised to carry a digital voice recorder in case somoeone thinks there is:cuss:
 

AbNo

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People act differently when they know they are being recorded.

I prefer to remember the moment in its truest form.

I will simply leave my statement at that.
 

TFred

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Fortunately, in Virginia, there is no requirement to notify all parties of the recording. This has been well hashed out in prior threads here.

There is nothing good that can come of you informing a LEO that you are recording them.

It has been documented that in some cases, LEOs have illegally ordered people to stop video taping during an encounter, and illegally threatened arrest if they did not. As is often said, you will never win an argument "on the side of the road", they have the presumption of correctness, the weapon, and the court's backing that officer saftey outweighs all other considerations.

Fortunately, the vast majority of LEOs are fine upstanding people. But if you encounter one who wants to bend the rules, there isn't anything you can do about it at the time. Tipping them off that you are keeping a record would not be in your best interest.

TFred
 

GLENGLOCKER

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The price of the recorder alone will be worth watching some cop's mouth drop when you bring it out in court. This is how it should be, us doing the secret recording and watching the governments agents.
 

GWRedDragon

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GLENGLOCKER wrote:
The price of the recorder alone will be worth watching some cop's mouth drop when you bring it out in court. This is how it should be, us doing the secret recording and watching the governments agents.
Only because the bad ones know they can lie with impunity because the court always believes the officer over the ordinary person :uhoh:
 

AbNo

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Pa. Patriot wrote:
Remember folks, it depends on the state. As stated above, one party consent in Va. Other states (like Pa.) are ALL party consent. Their are exceptions of course but just noteworthy to point out.
Wait, does that apply in public places, or to people performing official govern-mental duties?
 

skidmark

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It all depends on the circumstances. Almost all the time I start out with the recorder in my shirt pocket or on a lanyard around my neck, because that's how it is carried. I've practiced enough to hit the "record" button using a seemingly innocent pass of the hand (hand to mouth to cover cough or stroking of chin).;)

There are times when I pull the recorder out to make it plainly clear that the event is being recorded. So far the occassions when I've done that have been very public and involved repeating a question so as to require the other person(s) to either give an answer they would rather not give, or to document that they refuse to respond. Some may recall the conversation with the Capitol Police sergeant regarding the question of whether open carry with a CHP was allowed in the General Assembly Building. The point was to get him to eitherproduce the official written policy that backed up his claim and allow it to be reviewed, or to cause him to question his interpretation of what the official policy was. Holding the recorder out in plain sight and repeatedly asking him "Is that your personal opinion or is there a written policy or rule we can look at?" caused him to decide 1) that he was not sure what the official policy/rule was, and 2) to retreat up the chain of command for someone with a higher rank to take the heat in case his position was not in fact correct.

While I'm not going to suggest one way as being better than another, I will add this recommendation if you are using a recorder: ask questions about what is happening and what the other party/ies are doing, and repeat those questions. (Not just "Am I being detained?" and"Why am I being detained?" but questions like "Do you think it is safe to try to remove my handgun from the holster that way?" and "Why are looking inside my car when I refused to allow you to search it?") Also, if your recorder is "discovered" and an attempt is made to take it away from you, discuss that fact so it is recorded. Repeatedly state what is happening ("Officer X is trying to take my recorder out of my shirt pocket.", that you are not breaking any law by recording, and that the attempt to remove the recorder is tampering with evidence ("Officer X is trying to destroy evidence of this event by taking away my recorder.")

My experience is that in most situations nothing will be said about a recorder that is not brought out into the open, and that bringing a recorder out in the open will increase the level of dislike shown to you by the party being recorded, but will also cause them to be more careful about what they assert as absolute fact.

stay safe.

skidmark
 

ChinChin

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Pa. Patriot wrote:
Remember folks, it depends on the state. As stated above, one party consent in Va. Other states (like Pa.) are ALL party consent. Their are exceptions of course but just noteworthy to point out.

I would imagine as the OP's info states he is from the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the question is being asked in the Virginia forum. . .one should be able to reason out that any responses to this thread applys to. . . .which Commonwealth of the union? Anyone, anyone?

That's right! VIRGINIA.

(Apoligies to PA Pat. I've been made to come into the office today, which should just be a friggin holiday to begin with; grumble grumble)
 

Thundar

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ChinChin wrote:
Pa. Patriot wrote:
Remember folks, it depends on the state. As stated above, one party consent in Va. Other states (like Pa.) are ALL party consent. Their are exceptions of course but just noteworthy to point out.

I would imagine as the OP's info states he is from the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the question is being asked in the Virginia forum. . .one should be able to reason out that any responses to this thread applys to. . . .which Commonwealth of the union? Anyone, anyone?

That's right! VIRGINIA.

(Apoligies to PA Pat. I've been made to come into the office today, which should just be a friggin holiday to begin with; grumble grumble)
My response was specific to VA, but PA Patriot has a point - remember the opinions apply only to Virginia.
 

Pa. Patriot

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I would imagine as the OP's info states he is from the Commonwealth of Virginia, and the question is being asked in the Virginia forum. . .one should be able to reason out that any responses to this thread applys to. . . .which Commonwealth of the union? Anyone, anyone?

That's right! VIRGINIA.

(Apoligies to PA Pat. I've been made to come into the office today, which should just be a friggin holiday to begin with; grumble grumble)

I think asumptions are dangerous ;) Especialy when discussing state specific legal info.

I fully understood that the context of the Q was *most likely* in regard to Va. law (kind of why I pointed that out in my reply ;)). I did not see "Va." in the question or any of the replies. Do to this reason I was simply seeking to add a little "more info", for clarity sake.

Seeing "yes, you can do XYZ" repeatedly in a forum runs the risk that people will forget that this legal condition is specific to their state and can (and do) run afoul of the law when they travel to another state.
 

Sheriff

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GWRedDragon wrote:
Only because the bad ones know they can lie with impunity because the court always believes the officer over the ordinary person :uhoh:



Not totally accurate in all cases. Back in 1997 we had an entire chain of command in a local police department commit perjury in a General District Court againsta deputy sheriffin a false arrest. All the way from the chief down to the arresting rookie. They were making up lies as fast as they could think 'em up once a question was asked of them. Obviously CYOA had kicked into high gear, because they knew lawsuits were coming down the pike after the criminalcharge was tossed out. Without a doubt, they felt they had to win the case or be sued big time. The captain couldn't even look the judge in the eye when answering questions posed to him, so the judge knewhe was committing perjury. He kept looking down and answering to the carpet.

At the conclusion of the trial, the judge went into his chambers and told his baliff that he couldn't believe the entire police department had lied under oath in his courtroom. He was extremely offended. (The judge also retired shortly after this, wasn't hard to figure out why)

The lawsuits were filed. The entire department continued to fight tooth and nail for 6 years plus. When the Circuit Court judge set a definite jury trial date to hear the lawsuits, the county was knocking on the door of the plaintiffbegging to settle the lawsuits out of court. They didn't want their dirty laundry hung out for the public to see. And they knew there was plenty of dirty laundry to hang out too.

So, NO! Judges don't always automatically believe a cop. They don't automatically believe an entire circle of cops either. Cops no longer possess the enhanced credibility factor they once enjoyed.

In the above case I referenced, things went south for the entire department oncetestimony that the 911 tapes, under a lawful court ordered subpoena, were "accidentally" destroyed was admitted into evidence.

In another false arrest case, directlyrelated to the case I spoke of above, a judge called a small group of cops liars to their face, in open court, and while still on record. I have the transcript laying on my desk right now as Itype this.

EDIT: typical ie vs ei typo. :lol:
 

GLENGLOCKER

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Good point Sheriff. (This thread is probably in the Thread Closed Danger Zone now) I just got done reading Constitutional Chaos What Happens When The Government Breaks Its Own Laws By Judge Andrew Napolitano. He threw a lot of cases out when he knew police were lying and making up evidence and he says A LOT of them have no problem doing it. In one case a good friend of his came in his court and lied and he knew it just looking at him.
 

Sheriff

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GLENGLOCKER wrote:
Constitutional Chaos What Happens When The Government Breaks Its Own Laws By Judge Andrew Napolitano.
Judge Napoliano is now the senior judicial analyst for FOX News.

Good book. Read his other book too -- "The Constitution in Exile: How the Federal Government Has Seized Power by Rewriting the Supreme Law of the Land"
 

Citizen

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If4400 posts and being a Founders Club member counts for anything, I want to throw my weight around a little.

WHY ARE THERE NO CITES FOR THE ASSERTIONS OF LAW IN SOME OF THE EARLIER POSTS?
 

Citizen

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As to the OPs questions.

1) Its tactically not a good idea to inform the LEO. If he's touchy on the subject, or just a bad cop, your recording or recorder may "disappear". Also, as an extreme, a really bad cop might even be pushed into a corner--he's been recorded saying things that can get him harshly disciplined or fired (if he's been warned for earlier similar incidents). Now, backed into a corner, he has no choice but to arrest you on false charges so he can justify the search-incident-to-arrest thatalso just happens to let him get his hands on your recorder, which of course completely disappears by the time you get to the magistrate's office.

2) Regarding whether you legally are required totell the officer he is being recorded, here is thepertinent part of the law my forum mates have been avoiding giving you:

2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception.(emphasis mine)

You should read the entire law. You can read it here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-62
 
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