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Thread: After a shooting instructions

  1. #1
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    I'm putting together an instruction card from information Massab Ayoob provided on Personal Defense TV. Here is what I have so far:

    Immediately following a shooting:[/b]
    • Call Police
    • When Police arrive, tell them "I have a duty to inform you that I have a concealed handgun permit and I am armed."
    • Point out perpetrator to Police “This man attacked me.”[/i]
    • Tell Police “I will sign the complaint."[/i]
    • Point out the evidence to Police
    • Point out the witnesses to Police
    • Tell Police “You will have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I have spoken with counsel.”[/i]

    Does anyone have any edits or additions I should consider before printing? Maybe what should be said when placing the initial call to Police?

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    Regular Member CRF250rider1000's Avatar
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    No need to declare that you have a CHP in VA since we are open carry Unless you have the firearm concealed of course

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    Not that I have ever been in this situation, but the last thing I'm going to do after a self defense shooting is trying to talk (because I'd likely have an adrenaline 'dump' after fighting for my life) to law enforcement or anyone else besides an attorney.

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    Regular Member CRF250rider1000's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    Not that I have ever been in this situation, but the last thing I'm going to do after a self defense shooting is trying to talk (because I'd likely have an adrenaline 'dump' after fighting for my life) to law enforcement or anyone else besides an attorney.
    Very true! Just say I want my attorney and then shut up and wait to talk to him/her

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    nova wrote:
    Not that I have ever been in this situation, but the last thing I'm going to do after a self defense shooting is trying to talk (because I'd likely have an adrenaline 'dump' after fighting for my life) to law enforcement or anyone else besides an attorney.
    Ask to be taken to a hospital, it will end any discussions quickly. You will want to ensure you weren't hurt for one and it ends communication with the police as a bonus.

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    Regular Member CRF250rider1000's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Not that I have ever been in this situation, but the last thing I'm going to do after a self defense shooting is trying to talk (because I'd likely have an adrenaline 'dump' after fighting for my life) to law enforcement or anyone else besides an attorney.
    Ask to be taken to a hospital, it will end any discussions quickly. You will want to ensure you weren't hurt for one and it ends communication with the police as a bonus.
    +1

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Also keep in mind that the police records and their logs of your conversastions are a matter of public record after they are filed; and can be obtained by any lawyer retained by the person you shot or the family of the "little angel" looking for a payday afterwards in civil court.

    More than just incrimidating yourself to the police/detectives; your lawyer needs to have you watch what is said to make sure you aren't making an ambulance chaser's job easier to collect a payday from you after a lawful defense of your own life.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

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    Exactly. You should be checked out for the mental stress any injuries that "little angel" put you through when you were viciously attacked. *nod*
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    AbNo wrote:
    Exactly. You should be checked out for the mental stress any injuries that "little angel" put you through when you were viciously attacked. *nod*
    Agree, I've never been in that situation but have transported a few that have, the on set of shock needs to be checked out, with or without physical injuries.

    Also remember Miranda - anything you say canor will be used against you (or something like that) - never heard anyone say that it will be used for your behalf.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I would add that it has been suggested and I concur to ask to be taken to seek medical attention, just say you feel sick or hurt, probably will be true anyway. It also I think gives you some room to breathe and buys time until a lawyer can be present.

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    All good points. I like the idea about asking for medical attention. By the way, I am not suggesting to sit a talk to the LEOs. However, it may be very important to point out certain things and make specific statements before things start to disappear or get misconstrued.

    Here is a thread from another forum about the same topic:

    After a Shooting: Massad Ayoob's 5 critical points
    [img]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/jmharvey/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/img]by BobK » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:11 pm
    {BobK: Below is Massad Ayoob's 5 critical points to remember immediately following a shooting, from "Personal Defense TV". I am interested in what you agree with, disagree with, would add, or would subtract. I am especially interested in your opinion if you have actually investigated shootings. The below is a Massad Ayoob and Tom Gresham discussion on TV.}

    Before we get into the five points, I always worry that the police are called for a "man with a gun". I am the man with the gun. That is why one of the critical skills that we teach is not just being able to draw quickly without looking at the gun, but being able to keep an eye on the danger zone while holstering one-handed by feel so you can see what is going on around you, and when the officer gets there you are not the threatening figure with the pistol. You are the person in the non-threatening position, say your hands are about shoulder high with palms forward showing you are unarmed.

    Call the Police.

    When they arrive, {Additional text inserted by BobK for Ohio: "Officer, I have a duty to inform you that I have a concealed handgun license and I am armed." Back to the show:} "Officer, I am the one who called you, this is the man who attacked me, he may still have a weapon, I do not know if there are any more."

    Whoever calls in first gets to be the victim complainant. There is only one other role open in the play, and that's the perpetrator. You want to be the one who makes the telephone call. The perpetrator is laying there in a puddle of blood doing a remarkably convincing imitation of a victim. You by default become the perp if you do not make the call in. The system is keyed on the assumption that whoever made that initial call is the victim.

    I think there are five points that really need to be covered here. A lot of folks will say don't say anything until your lawyer gets there. That's too late, there are a lot of things the cops need to know before they can establish in their mind who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. The 5 point checklist I teach is this:
    1. Officer, this man attacked me.I will sign the complaint.Evidence is here.The witnesses are there.Officer, you will have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I have spoken with counsel.
    If we don't say those things, if we don't point out the evidence, it disappears.

    I did one case in Connecticut. The shooting went down on a cold, icy night. The spent brass will literally blow across an icy street from the wind and from passing cars. If you look at it, 9 MM or 45 brass is just the right size to get caught in the treads of people's shoes or in the treads of passing cars. The evidence that he shot at you if you don't point it out to the officers is gone and it is never coming back . The witnesses are over here thinking could this be some drug shooting or vengeful gang-banger. They don't know what's going on. "Do we really want to get involved?" If they leave, the testimony that would have proven you innocent leaves with them.

    So basically, to recap:
    1. Point out Perpetrator to Police. ("This man attacked me, clearly showing he is the perpetrator, you are the victim).Tell Police you will "Sign the Complaint". ("I will sign the complaint." Cop language that tells them, "He is the victim complainant, the guy on the ground is the subject of the complaint.)Point out the evidence to the police.Point out Witnesses to Police.Will Give Full Cooperation in 24 hours After speaking with Attorney. (From then on, whatever else is said, "Officer, you know how serious this is. You will have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I have spoken with counsel").
    At that point, don't offer anything more. That is your name rank and serial number. Basically, the police officer who is there on the scene will be the one whom the court will be looking to, to say, "what do you think?". The court, the prosecutor, and the investigating detectives will follow him. The tone of this whole investigation is going to be set in the seconds and minutes after the shooting has taken place. The four or five minutes after the shooting may determine where you get to live for the next 20 years.



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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Seems to me you wouldn't want to so quiet that you seem defiant. Sometimes those who refuse to talk appear the most guilty. I would cooperate with the police to the extent of which would be beneficial to you in court. Pointing out evidence and witnesses would be things I would openly divulge before they evaporate and the opportunity is gone.

    But I'm not a lawyer nor law enforcement. It just seems that the ideal response (in your favor) would not be to completely refuse communication. I'm sure that is a flag for many officers as to your guilt.

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    richarcm wrote:
    Seems to me you wouldn't want to so quiet that you seem defiant. Sometimes those who refuse to talk appear the most guilty. I would cooperate with the police to the extent of which would be beneficial to you in court. Pointing out evidence and witnesses would be things I would openly divulge before they evaporate and the opportunity is gone.

    But I'm not a lawyer nor law enforcement. It just seems that the ideal response (in your favor) would not be to completely refuse communication. I'm sure that is a flag for many officers as to your guilt.
    The problem is you don't know what might be beneficial to you, or to the prosecution, in court.

    Everyone should watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

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    mpg9999 wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    Seems to me you wouldn't want to so quiet that you seem defiant. Sometimes those who refuse to talk appear the most guilty. I would cooperate with the police to the extent of which would be beneficial to you in court. Pointing out evidence and witnesses would be things I would openly divulge before they evaporate and the opportunity is gone.

    But I'm not a lawyer nor law enforcement. It just seems that the ideal response (in your favor) would not be to completely refuse communication. I'm sure that is a flag for many officers as to your guilt.
    The problem is you don't know what might be beneficial to you, or to the prosecution, in court.

    Everyone should watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
    Yeah I know. It seems to me to be more of a balance between saying enough and not saying too much VS just keep quiet and don't say a word without a lawyer. You can do a lot to help yourself if you say the RIGHT things. I guess you just have to be able to analyze the situation, your rights and what you say very closely. I hope I'm never in this situation but even moreso...If I am I hope that I am able to do everything correctly.

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    richarcm wrote:
    mpg9999 wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    Seems to me you wouldn't want to so quiet that you seem defiant. Sometimes those who refuse to talk appear the most guilty. I would cooperate with the police to the extent of which would be beneficial to you in court. Pointing out evidence and witnesses would be things I would openly divulge before they evaporate and the opportunity is gone.

    But I'm not a lawyer nor law enforcement. It just seems that the ideal response (in your favor) would not be to completely refuse communication. I'm sure that is a flag for many officers as to your guilt.
    The problem is you don't know what might be beneficial to you, or to the prosecution, in court.

    Everyone should watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
    Yeah I know. It seems to me to be more of a balance between saying enough and not saying too much VS just keep quiet and don't say a word without a lawyer. You can do a lot to help yourself if you say the RIGHT things. I guess you just have to be able to analyze the situation, your rights and what you say very closely. I hope I'm never in this situation but even moreso...If I am I hope that I am able to do everything correctly.
    No, you can't. The right thing to say is nothing more than I'll answer questions tomorrow with my lawyer present.

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    Here's a bloq post from LawDog:

    Link: http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2...1_archive.html

    Quote
    Posted by LawDog at 9:32 PM 7 comments Links to this post Thursday, January 04, 2007 Meditations on aftermath If you spend any time at all on the various gun forums of the World Wide Web sooner or later the conversation will come around to "What to do after a shoot".

    The advice given by anonymous figures riding the electron waves of the Internet can be ... amusing. At best. At worst, some of the advice given will guarantee that the shooter will be hip-deep in legal trouble for the next lifetime.

    I will tell you right up front that any comments made by your Humble Scribe are worth exactly what you paid for them.

    First off -- and I cannot stress this enough -- anyone who carries, or owns, a gun or a knife needs to know a lawyer.

    First thing tomorrow -- or as early as possible -- find yourself a lawyer who is familiar with self-defense cases and the weapons laws of your state.

    Now, folks. Not at 0-dark-thirty with a critter bleeding out on your carpet and red-and-blue lightbars screaming down the road.

    Ask the regulars at your gun range/club who they'd recommend. Use your NRA, GOA, JPFO, KABA, LEAA, or SAF membership services and find out if they can point you at an attorney in your area.

    Once you have the name of an attorney, go talk to him (or her). It usually doesn't cost much -- or anything -- to introduce yourself, sit in his office and talk about What May Come.

    If you like him (or her), get a couple of his cards and put one in your wallet and another under the bedroom phone where you can find them after the bodies quit bouncing.

    If you should find it necessary to help a critter into his next incarnation, hopefully you or a family member will have called 911 prior to the Grand Finale -- so to speak -- and the whole fandango will be recorded. However, if (for whatever reason) it was not possible to call 911 prior to the critter starting his trip to room temperature -- please call 911 as soon as possible.

    You will note that I don't have any advice to give as to what you should tell 911 when you call them. Seems like everyone on the Internet has (legal) advice as to what you should tell the 911 operator, how you should say it, how many words to use and how many seconds to spend saying it.

    In my experience, when your ears are ringing, the smell of powder and blood and various human secretions are clogging your nose, adrenaline is rampaging up-and-down your spine and a man -- critter or not -- that you just killed spent his last moments in this life in your presence begging God for another chance, or calling for his mother, or crying in denial and disbelief as he died ...

    ... you are not going to be thinking of what your anonymous Internet buddy told you to say. You're not even going to remember grabbing the phone, and if you are conscious of your conversation with the 911 people you have my admiration.

    So. You have called 911. The very next thing you should do is pull out that lawyer's card and call him (or her).

    I don't care how justifiable the killing was. I don't care if you're in Deepinahearta, Texas and the deceased is laying in the middle of your living room floor with an axe in one hand and a detailed murder list in the other.

    Call your lawyer.

    Like it or not, guns -- and self-defense itself -- are political. And District Attorneys are political animals. Trust me, you don't want to be caught without a lawyer if Mike Nifong's evil twin Skippy decides to make his political bones with your case.

    You have called 911 and you have called your lawyer. Now -- probably sooner rather than later -- the scene is going to be crawling with cops.

    Whatever you do, please, please, please do not greet the police while holding a pistol in your hand. Or a knife, bludgeon, broken bottle, chainsaw or whatever else you used to shove your critter in front of his Eternal Maker.

    You, standing over a dead man, with a weapon in your paw when the cops show up is a recipe for an unpleasantness. Trust me on this one.

    Again, there are thousands of folks on the Internet, each one with advice on what to do with your pistol, knife, or whathaveyou.

    And -- again -- if you have the presence of mind to do something complicated with your gun, I salute you. But I doubt it.

    Just remember not to have the weapon in your hand, on your body or with-in arms reach when you get face-to-face with the police. The officers are going to take custody of whatever you used to chlorinate the gene pool, and when they do -- tell them where it is, but, please God, don't go grab it yourself to give to them.

    Last, but certainly not least, if there is any subject in which every-single-body on the Internet has advice for, it's what to tell the cops about your shooting.

    Folks, what you should or should not tell the cops is based completely upon the unique circumstances of your personal incident.

    I can tell you that it's never a Bad Thing to not make a statement to the police before your lawyer is present, but let's talk Real Life here:

    You have just ended the life of some mother's child. You may have stared into the eyes of this person as the life drained out of them. You may have listened to the death rattle as they took their last breath. You may have heard this person's last words, or you may have simply watched them kick until they were still.

    Whichever, you have just breached the most sacred of Man's taboos. You have done something that cannot be taken back, and you have done the single most powerful, awful thing one human being may do to another.

    In addition, you're going to be so jazzed on adrenaline that your teeth will hurt. Endorphins will mask any pain -- and failing to find pain, they will be tweaking your inhibitions in 23 different directions. Your mind will have played tricks on you -- sounds will have gone squirrelly; time will have done wierd things.

    And worst of all, you probably won't remember entire sequences of what just happened. Self-doubt is going to jump on your back like an 800-pound gorilla with cold feet and clammy hands.

    And you will want someone -- anyone -- to understand that you were forced to do this terrible act. You will want someone -- anyone -- to know, to understand, that you had no choice in breaking the ancient taboo against killing.

    Ladies and gentlemen, in the average self-defense shooting, it's not getting the shooter to talk to us that's hard -- it's getting him to shut up that's difficult.

    I can tell you to assert your right to have an attorney present during any interview with the police, but in the last 13 years of police work, I've never seen a justified Average Joe self-defense shooter who was capable of doing so.

    Again, you may be different. I salute you if you are, but -- again -- I wouldn't bet anything important that you won't be like everyone else I've seen in that position.

    So -- my advice to you is to sit down with your attorney before the Fit Hits The Shan and discuss what your attorney wants you to do in that situation. Find out what your attorney wants you to tell the police, and try to stick with that.

    Don't be surprised if you find yourself unable to stop talking, though. Prepare for it, and you will probably be able to limit any damage done.

    LawDog
    Posted by LawDog at 8:45 PM 34 comments Links to this post

    Unquote

    Happy New Year

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    I can't wait to hear what the really smart folks have to say about this.

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    He/she/they tried to kill me!!

    I need to talk to my lawyer.

  19. #19
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    Call the Cops

    Then call your lawyer


    Say nothing to the Cops until you have your lawyer there.....

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