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Thread: Defending our rights in 2009

  1. #1
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    2009 has come. It seems like it was only yesterday we were wondering if Barack Hussein Obama was going to inhabit the White House, and now he's filled the cupboards already....oh, I mean cabinet.

    It is very difficult to organize a rally in D.C. when you live in Michigan, due to the distances involved. The logistics and costs are staggering. There may come a time when it is necessary to organize a gun-owners' march on D.C., but as of yet that time has not come. For the present, the most egregious anti-gun regulations come from the states. In 48 of the 50 states, the state "gun-control" laws are stricter than the federal, and Michigan has got some real humdingers. I believe that our efforts would be best spent focusing on our own state, and I believe that, with a concerted effort, we can accomplish much.

    The Brady bunch (whatever their real name is) only got their laws passed because they were organized, noisy, and conspicuous. We need to do the same thing, and I feel certain that we can have greater success than they have had if we are organized, reasonable, and (most of all) consistent. Don't forget, we have the facts on our side. All the anti-gun people have is made-up statistics and illogical emotional ploys. If we are consistent in our activism, (did I mention consistent?) I believe we can accomplish much in the restoration of our right to keep and bear arms.

    I propose a series of rallies in Lansing at times when legislators are moving in and out of the capitol building. For example, (and I would like to actually do this, but I know it's short notice to plan for) the 14th of this month the legislators will be coming back into session at 12:00. We would be in front of the capitol building at 10:00 or so with generic signs such as "Carrying guns is a right, not a privilege" and "Gun owners keep Michigan safe" or what have you. The signs should be coordinated in advance. As the legislators enter, they will become aware that we are going to be making a concerted effort to get their attention this session.

    Subsequently, if we can actually do the 14th, we need to find some legislators willing to sponsor and co-sponsor legislation for us to the ends that we agree upon in this forum, and have them actually write some legislation. Then we need to support it with more rallies with signs to support the specific pieces of legislation (for example, "Support H.B. XXXX—End easy victim zones!" (That would be for H.B. XXXX repealing as many of the absurd "pistol-free" zones as we think we might be able to get passed.) This follow-up will require vigilance, but FEET TALK. When someone is dedicated enough to something to take time off work, drive halfway across the state, and stand in the cold with a sign, people notice. That's how the Bradys get things done, and it's how we're going to have to counteract them. My experience has been (in another state, granted) that we can usually drum up far more people to put feet to our cause than the anti-gun people can. Having the truth on our side helps, I'm sure, but organization and consistency are key.

    We should plan to wear something recognizable and CONSISTENT (I'm stuck on that, aren't I) so that they can tell how many of us there are. In Virginia (where I used to live) I was working with a group that had a conspicuous "Guns save lives" button they wore on their shirt for recognisability. We could probably get some of those fairly inexpensively, or something like it. A uniform shirt would be ideal once things warm up a bit, but not practical now, unless it was worn over a coat, which would look a bit silly. We certainly don't want to give the anti-gun media a chance to call us frumpy clowns......

    I suggest the following legislative agenda, but feel free to post your own ideas:

    REPEAL of the law prohibiting the transportation of loaded firearms in a vehicle without a CPL, perhaps on the condition that they are in plain sight (narrowing the restriction to CONCEALED loaded firearms)

    This confused someone when I bounced the idea off them in a PM, so I explained it this way:
    My past life in Virginia is speaking here. In Virginia, I could strap on my sidearm with no permit required, as here. BUT, when I got to my car, all I had to do was place it on the seat next to me, dashboard, open console, hang it from the rearview mirror , or some other "plain sight" place, and be fully legal. Sometimes I didn't even do that, although I probably should have, what with seatbelts and all. Get where I'm going, just put it back on and go. The absurd law prohibiting the transportation of loaded firearms in MI except by CPL holders makes OC without a CPL in MI so impractical as to be de-facto illegal, unless you walk or bicycle everywhere.

    REPEAL of the paper-trail requirement on private sale of hanguns and bringing them in from out-of-state, along with the rest of the registration scheme they just replaced the "safety inspection" with

    REPEAL of the requirement to get pistol purchase permits

    REPEAL as many as possible of the pistol-free (easy crime) zones

    Each proposed change should be presented as a separate piece of legislation so that the failure of one change during this session does not doom another along with it. We take what we can get as we can get it, and not try to make it into an all-or-nothing hard sell package that would almost surely get rejected. Personally, I don't see the problem with making a laundry list of our grievances with the Michigan firearm code and having the sponsor(s) present them all as separate pieces of legislation. We might be surprised by what we can get, and then we just keep working on the rest in future sessions.

    Eventually, I'd like to see our gun laws resemble Alaska and Vermont, where gun ownership and carry (even concealed) are recognized as a right, not a privilege, and there are almost no regulations at the state level. While I realize that we may never be able to get there, we can certainly try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    Does anyone have any objections to working with other gun-owners' rights groups on this project? If we did, I would keep the reins of the agenda (I started this, for goodness' sake!) and not allow it to veer too much, although I don't see how it would. After all, virtually all gun-owners' rights groups more-or-less agree on the agenda, so let's come together and get it done!

    I very much look forward to the discussion we're about to have, and I look forward to seeing you in Lansing!

    Jason Bassett
    (Why not give you my real name? There....that's it. Not really a secret anyway.....)

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    Can anyone offer legal insight as to why the existing laws are in place? This would be a good starting point to get our brains thinking about our reasons to change them.

    Perhaps each agenda item should be discussed in its own thread?
    United we STAND!

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    Jason, what you say sounds wonderful, but I would like a little background on you. Do you have any links to show me what you've done, what groups you've been a part of, maybe some links to show your postings? I like to know the sort of people I put weight behind. Thx
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    Jason, what you say sounds wonderful, but I would like a little background on you. Do you have any links to show me what you've done, what groups you've been a part of, maybe some links to show your postings? I like to know the sort of people I put weight behind. Thx
    It is good to know your friends, but can this be done through PM's. And remember, the work that comes from this will still benefit us. Lets try to keep this on track.

    It would be great to get some more sub-threads going about the individual agenda items!
    United we STAND!

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    I figure if I ask, others would ask the same thing. That's why I posted instead of sending a PM. PM is fine, if that's how you want to do it.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  6. #6
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    I'm just a cog in the machine; what I want doesn't matter. And there is some validity to your question. Justhoping to keep focused.
    United we STAND!

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    Since Taurus is curious about my background, I imagine others must be as well. After all, I did sort of appear out of nowhere in a flurry of typing! But actually, I am no newcomer to guns or their associated legal concerns. I have simply recently found this forum and discovered how many like-minded people are here. So here's a brief bio on me.

    I am a Michigander by birth and by choice. I was born in Michigan, but have lived in many other places during my life, including Illinois, Ohio, Virginia, Florida, and Taiwan ROC. Somehow living in Michigan seems to be my destiny.

    I was home educated for most of my grade school years, but attended a year of conventional education in high school. I subsequently attended both Pensacola Christian College and Massillon Baptist College. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, that's for sure.

    I married a Michigan girl after college and immediately snatched her away to Virginia. My parents moved there while I was at PCC, and I lived with them briefly between colleges, so I had some connections there, and believed that the economy was better there than in Michigan. I sold office equipment for a small local dealership and started my own printing business on the side. My son was also born there.

    Things were going OK, but my wife found the climate oppressively hot, and her aging extended family was all in Michigan (as was mine, but mine was mostly gone already by that time) so we decided to move back. And we did, last summer. And we're here to stay.

    I am now a small business owner in the Business Services field, providing IT support/computer repair, merchant services, advertising, and printed products (brought that with me). I very much enjoy the flexibility that this affords me, and the knowledge that I can never get downsized is nice, too. (If anybody needs any of my services, I'll make you a great OCer deal. )

    I consider myself a political libertarian, and believe that if our founding fathers were alive today they would associate most closely with the views of the Libertarian party. I have some small disagreements with the Libertarian party line, but nothing to part ways over. I believe that freedom is the answer to the problems we face in this nation today, that government is necessary to protect the inalienable rights of the people, and that good government must never infringe upon those rights for any reason. I believe that this is what the united States constitution teaches, read properly.

    My interest in all things firearm-related stems from my love of liberty, though I do enjoy firearms in their own right. As a child, I took a keen interest in American government, and that interest continues to this day. My understanding of the principles of a representative government of free people has grown much since then, but my love for it continues unabated. I resent the intrusion of big government into people's lives in all areas of life, but I see firearms as possibly one of the most dangerous areas. Quite simply, firearms in the hands of the people symbolize the power of the people to protect their own lives and destinies, and denying people the right to protect their own lives means that government is, at least symbolically, taking posession of people's lives. In a dark alley, this can become far more literal than symbolic, and unfortunately, the government doesn't always protect its poessions very well. Our nation's founders wrote extensively on not only why gun control doesn't work, but also why it is morally wrong. I agree with them wholeheartedly.

    I was a member of the Virginia Citizens' Defense League when I lived in Virginia. Unfortunately, I was not able to be as involved as I would have liked since I had a "normal" job and all of the meetings (and practically all of the membership as well) were on the other side of the state. Still, the contact I did have with this group gave me a greater understanding both of the specific legal challenges facing gun owners in general, and also how to effectively pursue activism. Feet do talk, and the VCDL was always in the news. I'll never forget the time when the anti-gun people had a "lie-in" to protest the "easy availability of guns" following the Virginia Tech shooting. We had far more people than they did, and simply stood in front of their "lie-in." They were denied their silly stunt simply because nobody could see the few of them for the wall of people wearing "guns save lives" pins! The VT shooting was the tripping point for me to get more involved, because I realized that not only were stupid gun laws morally bad and constitutionally improper, they were killing people. You might say I've been on a "rampage" against bad gun laws ever since.

    "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke said that a long time ago, and it is still absolutely true. The people who would deny us our rights are organized, conspicuous, and persistent. They have gathered around them large numbers of people who have believed their lies, and they lobby hard to get their irrational wishes made law. Those of us who know the truth need to be just as vigilant and organized so that the truth can triumph over their lies, and if no one else is willing to stand up and lead the march, I am.

    "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be gained at the cost of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! As for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"
    -Patrick Henry, (mis?)quoted from memory

    Jason Bassett



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    Oh, erm.....just realized I should probably change my Avatar to something more "leaderly" than a hamburger..... Let's see.........

    (it was just the first thing that I saw that I liked, and it made me chuckle.....)

    EDIT: Found a better one; I just hope the estate of John Wayne will forgive me for borrowing his picture.

    EDIT AGAIN: Found what I was after in the first place; Humphrey Bogart, dressed to the nines, and holding a revolver. Much better!

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    Jason, what you say sounds wonderful, but I would like a little background on you. Do you have any links to show me what you've done, what groups you've been a part of, maybe some links to show your postings? I like to know the sort of people I put weight behind. Thx
    Feel free to check my other posts in the OC forums (just do a search by username.) I haven't posted in many other online forums, since most of them are totally pointless. You can also search for some of my comments on YouTube if you like, I use the same username there. I have commented on a number of videos about guns, so you could look for those in particular. But you can't search the comments with YT's built-in search; you have to use Google and put in (for example "edifyguy site:youtube.com" (no quotation marks)

    I know it may seem like I really haven't got much documentation of online work, but there is a reason for that.........some people don't listen no matter what you say, so I've learned to be selective on where I comment.

    OH! I just remembered an occasion you might be interested in: I posted a reply in a gun-control debate on a newspaper website in the wake of the VT shooting. Here's a link (mine is about 3/4 of the way down the page)

    http://blogs.roanoke.com/roundtable/..._comme_11.html

    I hope that this plus the bio helps you "know the sort of people" I am.

    Jason

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    OK folks, sub threads have been set up for each agenda item. The second amendment needs us, pick your passion and see how you can help out! :celebrate
    United we STAND!

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    Boy, it would sure be a big help to the group to stay focused if these threads were somehow stuck at the top of this forum. That way everyone could easily see when new thoughts come in for their particular agenda item!
    United we STAND!

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    Welcome Jason-EdifyGuy. Why not re-register over your real name?

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    Habit, I guess. I have always used "edify" in my screen names because of its meaning.

    From Wiktionary:

    Verb








    to edify (third-person singular simple present edifies, present participle edifying, simple past and past participle edified)
    1. (transitive) To instruct or improve morally or intellectually.
    It's a mission statement, really.


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    JeffSayers wrote:
    Can anyone offer legal insight as to why the existing laws are in place? This would be a good starting point to get our brains thinking about our reasons to change them.

    Perhaps each agenda item should be discussed in its own thread?
    Simple version: Apathy of past voters

    More in depth version: Some thing happened to some one, so acting on emotions instead of rational thought they pursued a solution not knowing or caring of existing laws, they had a knee jerk reaction, and got a bill to the congress, cried on every ones shoulders who would listen, and then some politician saw an opportunity to heighten his political career, and so on, and so forth!

    Hows that?:celebrate

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    +1

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    JeffSayers wrote:
    Can anyone offer legal insight as to why the existing laws are in place? This would be a good starting point to get our brains thinking about our reasons to change them.

    Perhaps each agenda item should be discussed in its own thread?
    A good starting point is not why the laws are in place. A good starting place is a review of your 'natural, inalienable rights' and the philosophical journey that led to the Constitution.

    Once that's done, you may realize that we need a reboot of the Constitution - if we start at our present situation and work backwards, then we are involved in a game of semantics and splitting hairs with our representatives. We will cheer ourselves with each tiny victory, like we're at war with the people who work for us. I believe much stronger measures are required. Assemble. Redress our grievances face to face. Hold our heads high and demand their compliance.

    I'm just sayin'...

    Carry on



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    Question for all those looking at this: how many feel that they would be able to go to Lansing next Wednesday to hold signs as the legislators return from Christmas break? That's Wednesday the 14th. I would like to get as many pro-gun-rights signs as possible in front of the capitol when the legislators return, just to let them know that we're serious about this, and they'll be hearing more from us shortly. I'd like to be on the steps by 10AM at the latest, since session starts at 12. It would be better to have as many as possible there when the building opens so that no one gets in before we get there. (Does anyone know for sure what time the building opens?)

    If we can arrange carpools, that would be great. If we're going to be going to Lansing regularly, that's a bit of a trip for most of us, and keeping costs (gas, parking, maybe tolls) to a minimum would be helpful so that people don't drop out mid-session because of the costs.

    If you can make it the 14th, please reply with your city of residence if it's not next to your screen name (to facilitate carpooling) and how much of the day you could devote to it. We would need at least the morning (until 12) to get all of the legislators "in the know," and then we could go to lunch somewhere gun-friendly. (Suggestions welcome; I don't live there.) If possible, it would be great to be there again when the session ends for the day so they see us in both directions. Remember, feet talk, and the more times the legislators see constituents putting feet to their demands, the more likely they are to take them seriously.

    I look forward to seeing many of you in Lansing next week!

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I can be there. I suggest we have a letter typed up stating what we want addressed for each of our representatives from the area they live in. We can have the letters delivered to the Representative that day. I can make upa letterhead using both MOC and GOA logos.



    Added a draft letter.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    I believe I can be there. Time will tell though as sometimes I don't know my schedule that far out.

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    Venator wrote:
    Added a draft letter.
    Great contribution! There's one typo, and I'll propose a few changes/additions, but that's a GREAT start.

    Does anyone know/have a Rep/Senator/both who would be willing to introduce bills for us? If yours is up for re-election soon, they could be good ones to contact.

    By the way, I have a printing operation, as mentioned in my bio, so all necessary printed materials I can provide will be free for this project. (And maybe other OC activism projects, if they contact me about it.)

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    EdifyGuy wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Added a draft letter.
    Great contribution! There's one typo, and I'll propose a few changes/additions, but that's a GREAT start.

    Does anyone know/have a Rep/Senator/both who would be willing to introduce bills for us? If yours is up for re-election soon, they could be good ones to contact.

    By the way, I have a printing operation, as mentioned in my bio, so all necessary printed materials I can provide will be free for this project. (And maybe other OC activism projects, if they contact me about it.)

    Let me know what the typo is and any changes you have and I will update the draft.

    I also have the MOC banner we can use at the Capital. I can attach it to two poles for hand held display.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Do you have a picture of the banner? Also, are you suggesting that this be our only signage for the 14th, or just a primary element of it?

  23. #23
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    EdifyGuy wrote:
    Do you have a picture of the banner? Also, are you suggesting that this be our only signage for the 14th, or just a primary element of it?
    These are the banners Doug had made. I have the top two and Doug has the bottom one.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Representative Opsommer is not my representative but is in my county and a strong advocate of 2nd amd. Rights. I sent him and myRepresentative Ballas well as Senator Cropseya letter asking for an AG opinion on transporting a handgun as well as the repeal of certain handgun restrictions. Rep. Opsommer’s response was the same day (Very fast) and is as follows. I have not heard from my legislators yet.

    “Thank you Brian, as you may know, we attempted to accomplish some of these goals last year, but were only able to get as far as repealing the safety inspection. Given the split nature of the House and Senate, it will likely be another year of incremental change. In particular however, we do feel that changes to transport need to be addressed, for both in state and out of state residents. We will be analyzing the final wording of legislation passed in lame duck by Rep. Mayes to see what improvements in this area are still necessary.

    We are sure Rep. Ball will also be able to help you with your concerns, but we appreciate hearing from you as a representative of Open Carry and appreciate the updates.” Representative Opsommer
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Very good. I like the signage, but do you suggest using it exclusively? I don't. I think some other signs would be good, too.

    Are these reps willing to introduce legislation for us?

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