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Thread: OC in National Parks?

  1. #1
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    Forgive me if it's been discussed already.

    As the new law takes effect on the 9th, are we then allowed to OC in the parks if the states normally allow it otherwise?

    Don't worry, I don't plan to. Just would like the info.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    chris in va wrote:
    Forgive me if it's been discussed already.

    As the new law takes effect on the 9th, are we then allowed to OC in the parks if the states normally allow it otherwise?

    Don't worry, I don't plan to. Just would like the info.
    Well you may want to wait to see the final wording of the regulations after that date. You may also want to give a little time for all the Rangers to get the word. Keep checking here and at VCDL for updates.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    The new rule writes:




    (h) Notwithstanding any other provision in this Chapter, a person



    may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable




    firearms within a national park area in accordance with the laws of the




    state in which the national park area, or that portion thereof, is

    located, except as otherwise prohibited by applicable Federal law.




    The document leading up to the ruling would imply that it only applied to concealed carry, however, my english skills would tell me that if that were true one would have to interpret that rule to mean that the firearm must be all three: "Concealed, loaded, and operable" in order to be carried. However, to me the actual wording of it equally appears to allow foran interpretation that wouldallow for concealed firearms, loaded firearms, and operable firearms.


    Here is the ruling in the Federal Register: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/E8-29249.htm



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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    ...SNIP
    one would have to interpret that rule to mean that the firearm must be all three: "Concealed, loaded, and operable" in order to be carried. However, to me the actual wording of it equally appears to allow foran interpretation that wouldallow for concealed firearms, loaded firearms, and operable firearms.
    SNIP...


    ...And the interpretation of the thousands of Park rangers would be ....?

    I still would suggest that we all just wait until some of the dust settles such that we can see clearly what Will be allowed. Don't forget this is a regulation we are talking about, not a formal piece of legislation where the language is set in stone. There is still some wiggle room on the final language. The January date is the promulgation date, so the language might still be tinkered with between now and then.

    If you want to show up at the gate of the local Park at midnight on January 9th feel free. Just be certain you have a copy of the regulation in hand and be prepared to teach a class on your "interpretation" of the language to the ranger staff on duty when you arrive.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  5. #5
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    a person




    may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable





    firearms
    Read that? No carrying of unloaded firearms in NP's, understand! If they must be concealed, that means they must be loaded, too. English.



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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    ...SNIP
    one would have to interpret that rule to mean that the firearm must be all three: "Concealed, loaded, and operable" in order to be carried. However, to me the actual wording of it equally appears to allow foran interpretation that wouldallow for concealed firearms, loaded firearms, and operable firearms.
    SNIP...


    ...And the interpretation of the thousands of Park rangers would be ....?

    I still would suggest that we all just wait until some of the dust settles such that we can see clearly what Will be allowed. Don't forget this is a regulation we are talking about, not a formal piece of legislation where the language is set in stone. There is still some wiggle room on the final language. The January date is the promulgation date, so the language might still be tinkered with between now and then.

    If you want to show up at the gate of the local Park at midnight on January 9th feel free. Just be certain you have a copy of the regulation in hand and be prepared to teach a class on your "interpretation" of the language to the ranger staff on duty when you arrive.

    Regards
    I work in a national park and our rangers are aware of the ruling. It is good to go on Friday, January 9.

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    3 more days. :celebrate

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    You like hiking WAYyy too much.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Whoever wrote that seems to be unaware of open carry at all. As tho the 'only' method is concealed.I traverse thru or bordera National park daily (along with many others). We're mostly armed (openly or otherwise)... 'have done so for years. 'Anybody thinks we're gonna take the guns apart everytime we do ain't playin' with a full deck. In some places... one side of the road is 'Park' 'n the other side isn't. The Rangers don't bother with this kind'a nonsense. They live here 'n know how Arizona is. AZ is an open carry State. Permits required for Concealed only. So... IAW the laws of the State... OC is OK 'n CC with a CWP in AZ. That's how I'd 'interpret' it. I wonder if they actually beat the bushes to find people who can write such vague stuff as this?

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Whoever wrote that seems to be unaware of open carry at all. As tho the 'only' method is concealed.I traverse thru or bordera National park daily (along with many others). We're mostly armed (openly or otherwise)... 'have done so for years. 'Anybody thinks we're gonna take the guns apart everytime we do ain't playin' with a full deck. In some places... one side of the road is 'Park' 'n the other side isn't. The Rangers don't bother with this kind'a nonsense. They live here 'n know how Arizona is. AZ is an open carry State. Permits required for Concealed only. So... IAW the laws of the State... OC is OK 'n CC with a CWP in AZ. That's how I'd 'interpret' it. I wonder if they actually beat the bushes to find people who can write such vague stuff as this?
    In other words, you openly violate the law and brag about it on the internet. And you endorse law enforcement that is carried out with a nod and a wink, and believe that that somehow protects you if you get caught illegally carrying by a park ranger. That's not something I recommend to those trying to keep a clean record.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    You are wrapped WAY too tight! Let's put it down to regional differences as to what's on paper... and what 'is'. Pretty much the only way in/out of here is thru the Park or bordering the Park. 'Road's been a 'road' since 1910... which pre-dates Arizona AND the Park. You wouldn't want'a live outhere...I can tell that. You don't have the first clue.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    You are wrapped WAY too tight! Let's put it down to regional differences as to what's on paper... and what 'is'.
    Please tell me you are not saying "It depends on what your definition of "is" is"
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    It is what it is... :celebrate

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    It is what it is... :celebrate
    LOL
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  15. #15
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    Nobody's poachin' javelina or deer... or shootin' at the coyotes. Most of the people who traverse the park area live here. Most are armed or 'have somethin' in the vehicle. 'Been that way since Cochise was a pup. Everybody knows the 'law'... but there's no reason to actively enforce it. The Rangers might have to depend on a citizen to back 'em up some day (or night) this close to the border. It's the way it works.... The gummint wonks in DC can write whatever they want... Reality is a whole 'nuther thing.

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    In my reading of this the operable word is "may."

    "may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national park area in accordance with the laws of the......"

    May possess.
    May carry and transport concealed
    .
    Operable = not broken down.

    Nothing that I read indicates must possess, must be concealed or must be operable.

    If taken individually (they are parallel terms) it is the same as if the word "may" preceded each condition i.e. "may possess, may carry, and may transport concealed...."

    Nothing therein requires you to possess. Nothing requires you to carry. Therefore nothing requires you to conceal insofar as you are in accordance with the laws of the particular state. Would seem to me that OC will be legal within National Parks in Pa.and Va.


    Just my take on it - we shall see.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    In my reading of this the operable word is "may."

    "may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national park area in accordance with the laws of the......"

    May possess.
    May carry and transport concealed
    .
    Operable = not broken down.

    Nothing that I read indicates must possess, must be concealed or must be operable.

    If taken individually (they are parallel terms) it is the same as if the word "may" preceded each condition i.e. "may possess, may carry, and may transport concealed...."

    Nothing therein requires you to possess. Nothing requires you to carry. Therefore nothing requires you to conceal insofar as you are in accordance with the laws of the particular state. Would seem to me that OC will be legal within National Parks in Pa.and Va.


    Just my take on it - we shall see.

    Yata hey
    I agree with your reading of the wording, but I'm not an enforcer or a prosecutor.

    Who wants to be the test case? :celebrate

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    ...SNIP
    I agree with your reading of the wording, but I'm not an enforcer or a prosecutor.

    Who wants to be the test case? :celebrate
    Come on! Avid hiker!Marine!

    You should be at the gate at 12:00:01, S&W .500 Mag in a chest carry, yelling for the ranger to open the gates.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  19. #19
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    "May"... Good call. 'Gives ya the 'legal' option. This'llimpact you easterners much more than out here. I suspect the same has been goin' on up north in the 'Big' park areas like Yosemite relative to the locals 'packin'. Some places they're hemmed in by the parks as we are here. I think this 'no gun' stuff all came about from poachers back durin' the Great Depression anyway.

  20. #20
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    yelling for the ranger to open the gates.
    Gates? What gates? We don' need no steenkin' gates.We don' got no steenkin' gates!

  21. #21
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    I agree with your reading of the wording, but I'm not an enforcer or a prosecutor.
    Who wants to be the test case? :celebrate
    And I am not the judge.

    Now if I could be guaranteed a jury of my peers..........

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
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    On a related note, did VA ever change the rule about State parks and not being able to Open Carry in them?

    I know we can CC in them without issue.

    If VA has not, then in VA I would think we would be able to CC in National Parks but not OC.

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    After I get done with my current legal battle I might just do it. . . Haha....

    But out of curiosity, what would the possible punishment be? I mean, am I still only subject to the state punishment then or federal?

    Tomahawk wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    In my reading of this the operable word is "may."

    "may possess, carry, and transport concealed, loaded, and operable firearms within a national park area in accordance with the laws of the......"

    May possess.
    May carry and transport concealed
    .
    Operable = not broken down.

    Nothing that I read indicates must possess, must be concealed or must be operable.

    If taken individually (they are parallel terms) it is the same as if the word "may" preceded each condition i.e. "may possess, may carry, and may transport concealed...."

    Nothing therein requires you to possess. Nothing requires you to carry. Therefore nothing requires you to conceal insofar as you are in accordance with the laws of the particular state. Would seem to me that OC will be legal within National Parks in Pa.and Va.


    Just my take on it - we shall see.

    Yata hey
    I agree with your reading of the wording, but I'm not an enforcer or a prosecutor.

    Who wants to be the test case? :celebrate

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Theseus wrote:
    After I get done with my current legal battle I might just do it. . . Haha....

    But out of curiosity, what would the possible punishment be? I mean, am I still only subject to the state punishment then or federal?

    SNIP...
    OOOHHH, It is definitely a FEDERAL matter of you break the law in a National Park. Lose your case and you win an all expenses paid trip to a FEDERAL residential facility of someone else's choice.


    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  25. #25
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    I was on the outer banks shortly before Christmas and visited the Wright Brothers Memorial (National Park Service).

    At the gate house I asked the ranger about the new carry rules and asked if they were in effect.

    He said they had been briefed on them, and we operating under the understanding that it was now (as of that date) legal to carry with a CHP in the park. So I did.

    Pretty obvious he didn't like the rule (kept mentioning problems with poachers and such), but made it clear I was good to go there.

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