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Thread: Neglegent Discharges Can Injure & Kill

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I never accept the term "accidental discharge (AD)."
    IMHO - they all constitute a "negligent discharge" (ND) = operator error.

    Many of us have had such events, hopefully without serious consequences; yet the possibility always exists but for our constant attention to good safety procedures.

    I was reminded of this by a recent Times Dispatch news article about a security guard who shot himself while "working" on his gun.
    http://www.nbc12.com/global/story.asp?s=9613775

    Had this security guard followed good safe practices, he would have suffered neither the injury nor the embarrassment.

    My initial thought was wondering if it was a Glock. I do not like weapons which require that the trigger be depressed to disassemble. No flames please - that's just me expressing my opinion. There are actually a number of the smaller Glocks that appeal to me.

    First rule when cleaning/working on a gun = make sure that it is unloaded and all ammunition is away from the work area.

    Second rule = double check empty/clear condition & follow rule #1.

    Safe unloading requires that the barrel be pointed in a safe direction with the trigger finger off the trigger, magazine (if pistol) removed.

    Unloading stations like sand barrels are nice but most of us do not think them needed. I am contemplating making one out of a five gallon bucket and sand - maybe covering the top with cloth to keep the sand in place. Has anyone done this? What do you think?

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I was taught decades ago to open the chamber, look, and stick my skinny finger down there to "feel" the empty chamber. This has been passed onto my children. A firearm is checked every time it is picked up, or accepted.

    When I asked my father years ago if I really should stick my skinny finger into that M1 Garand action to make sure, his reply was: "God gave you ten fingers for a reason. Would you rather lose a finger or cross paths with a 30-06 round?"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    But we only get two thumbs - ever have an M1 thumb?

    Relating to my OP, good training = safe practice.

    Yata hey

    PS - Ya I know it's his left hand & M1 thumbs happen to the right hand.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Re discharge buckets; the ordinance typically not preempted by the state(s) is discharge within municipal boundaries. Needs an exception.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Re discharge buckets; the ordinance typically not preempted by the state(s) is discharge within municipal boundaries. Needs an exception.
    As I am not looking to discharge but rather to have a safer direction/place to clear my weapon, I am not sure (don't think) that I would be violating any laws.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    But we only get two thumbs - ever have an M1 thumb?

    Relating to my OP, good training = safe practice.

    Yata hey

    PS - Ya I know it's his left hand & M1 thumbs happen to the right hand.
    Does this make you feel better :^).



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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Something that I find interesting is that he was apparently working, and "working" on his gun.

    I cant see any reason for working on your gun during your shift. It should be ready for duty.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Does this make you feel better :^).
    Sure does. Now we have a double tap.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    I never accept the term "accidental discharge (AD)."
    IMHO - they all constitute a "negligent discharge" (ND) = operator error.
    I have been handling and shooting firearms for over 35 years, participating in and running organized shooting events for 20, and instructing professionally for over 10. In all of that time I've only seen 3 cases of an unintentional firing that could be classified as something other than negligent (accidental, perhaps). In all 3 of these cases, there was a (repeatable) malfunction with the firearm.

    "AD" is a greatly overused and misused term.

    "M1 thumb" and "AR pinky" are close cousins.

    Randy


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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Randy wrote:
    I have been handling and shooting firearms for over 35 years, participating in and running organized shooting events for 20, and instructing professionally for over 10. In all of that time I've only seen 3 cases of an unintentional firing that could be classified as something other than negligent (accidental, perhaps). In all 3 of these cases, there was a (repeatable) malfunction with the firearm.

    "AD" is a greatly overused and misused term.

    "M1 thumb" and "AR pinky" are close cousins.

    Randy
    Negligent discharges - not repeatable (ADs)malfunctions - would cause you to be pulled from the line and at the least repeat the classroom portion with the next class before live firing again. In the case of instructors class, very possibly expulsion from the course if serious enough. But times have changed and standards have in many cases been lowered.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    These were three different incidents. One with a Remington 700, one with a Walther P99, and one with a very old German semi-auto of some type. In all three cases, the failure could be demonstrated at will.

    A negligent discharge would result in immediate removal from a class, be it student or instructor level.

    Randy

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    I never accept the term "accidental discharge (AD)."
    IMHO - they all constitute a "negligent discharge" (ND) = operator error.
    NDs are a subset of ADs. That is, all NDs are ADs, but not all ADs are NDs.

    Accidental and unintentional are synonyms. If the gun fired when you didn't intend it to, it's an AD. Most accidents are due to negligence (e.g. one of the 4 rules has been violated), and thus most ADs are NDs. For these cases, I prefer the term ND as is stresses that negligence was the cause (and that is was preventable by following the rules).

    ADs that are not NDs are largely represented by mechanical or ammo failure. As a kid, I had a .22 rifle (owned by the rifle club) fire when I lowered the bolt on a loaded chamber. This was an AD, as the cause was found to be a worn sear (subsequently replaced).

    I don't mind the term ND, when appropriate, but I think it's silly when I see someone get indignant about the terms.


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    ProShooter wrote:
    Something that I find interesting is that he was apparently working, and "working" on his gun.
    I agree. Sounds a lot more like he was "playing" with his gun to me...

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    My initial thought was wondering if it was a Glock. I do not like weapons which require that the trigger be depressed to disassemble.....
    We don't know if it was a Glock or not, but I understand your point. I think this stresses the age old wisdom of "knowing the condition of your weapon at all times".

    I have different sidearms with different actions. If I make a change in what I'm carrying for the day, I first go through a drill of clearing and reloading the weapon just to reinforce how the action works for that particular piece. An automated ritual perhaps, but I think it helps.

    I do sometimes wonder If I would be better off sticking to just one action type.

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