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Thread: Skepticism About Second Amendment Support

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    http://www.thenewamerican.com/review...ion-please/647

    I apologize if this has already been posted, I didn't see it anywhere.
    ITEM: The Chicago Sun-Times reported on December 8: "As gun sales shoot up around the country, President-elect Barack Obama said Sunday that gun-owning Americans do not need to rush out and stock up before he is sworn in next month. 'I believe in common-sense gun safety laws, and I believe in the second amendment,' Obama said at a news conference. 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear. I said that throughout the campaign. I haven't indicated anything different during the transition. I think people can take me at my word.'"

    ITEM: A press release issued by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, dated November 5, asserts: "The election of Barack Obama as President and Joe Biden as Vice President along with significant wins in the U.S. Senate, the U.S. House of Representatives and key state legislative chambers, have significantly improved the political environment for progress on gun violence prevention issues in the years ahead.... 'This is a good day for people who want to reduce gun violence in America,' said Sarah Brady, Chair of the Brady Campaign. 'It's a bad day for extremists who are stuck in the rhetoric of the past.'"

    CORRECTION: The disarmers of the Brady group no doubt are also offended by the rhetoric of past extremists such as Thomas Jefferson, who said that "No free man shall be debarred the use of arms," and Patrick Henry, who maintained that "The great object is that every man be armed."

    In contrast to such straight shooting, President-elect Obama seems resentful that citizens should be wary of his intentions just because he has inveighed against Americans who "cling to guns or religion" in times of adversity, and has a record, at one time or another, of supporting handgun and ammunition bans, outlawing concealed-carry permits, and favoring stricter restrictions on rifles and shotguns.

    Some of Obama's positions proved embarrassing to him in times of political adversity, so he subsequently affected not to cling to those extremist views. Take, for example, a questionnaire filled out in Obama's name, when he ran for the state Senate in Illinois (with his own handwriting shown on the form). The document acknowledged that he favored a ban on the manufacture, sale, and possession of handguns. He later said those answers did not reflect his opinions, repeating that claim in particular this past year when he was running for national office and more Americans were looking carefully at his record.

    In April of 2008, columnist Robert Novak also took note of the fact that Obama was on the board "of the Chicago-based Joyce Foundation, which takes an aggressive gun control position, and in 2000 considered becoming its full-time president. In 2006, he voted with an 84-16 majority (and against [Hillary] Clinton) to prohibit confiscation of firearms during an emergency, but that is his only pro-gun vote in Springfield or Washington. The National Rifle Association grades his voting record (and Clinton's) an 'F.'"

    There are many reasons to be leery of Obama's views on the right of Americans to keep and bear arms. Among these are his false assertions relating to concealed-carry permits and support for a permanent ban of so-called assault weapons. Obama called the ban on the latter "common sense" β€” though it was nothing of the kind, since it outlawed almost 200 types of firearms, many simply for cosmetic reasons such as having a rifle grip that protruded "conspicuously" from the stock or including a bayonet lug. Such weapons, despite their name, are not automatic weapons and do not necessarily fire faster than other weapons or have more powerful ammunition.

    The NRA's Institute for Legislative Action has kept a careful eye on the purposely misleading claims about this ban, which has since expired:

    Perhaps no other firearm issue has been more dishonestly portrayed by gun prohibitionists. Notwithstanding their predictions that the ban's expiration in 2004 would bring about the end of civilization, for the last four years the nation's murder rate has been lower than anytime since the mid-1960s. Studies for Congress, the Congressional Research Service, the National Institute of Justice, the National Academy of Sciences, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have found no evidence that gun prohibition or gun control reduces crime. Guns that were affected by the ban are used in only a tiny fraction of violent crime β€” about 35 times as many people are murdered without any sort of firearm (knives, bare hands, etc.), as with "assault weapons." Obama says that "assault weapons" are machine guns that "belong on foreign battlefields," but that is a lie; the guns are only semi-automatic, and they are not used by a military force anywhere on the planet.

    There are real-world consequences to disarming local populations, as Indians found out not long ago during the terrorist attacks on Bombay (Mumbai). Scholar and author John R. Lott, Jr., now at the University of Maryland, pointed out in the "Fox Forum" that the terrorists just smuggled their automatic weapons into India. Accordingly, he asked, "Would anyone argue that India's extremely strict gun licensing and artificially high prices for guns helped prevent the terrorist attacks? In fact, the reverse is more likely the case."

    In India, said Lott, victims were forced to just watch as "armed police cowered and didn't fire back at the terrorists." Meanwhile, "according to the hotel company's chairman, P.R.S. Oberoi, security at 'the hotel had metal detectors, but none of its security personnel carried weapons because of the difficulties in obtaining gun permits from the Indian government.'" Who was disarmed by the strict gun-control laws? Lott answers: "The terrorist attack showed how difficult it is to disarm serious terrorists. Strict licensing rules meant that it was the victims who obeyed the regulations, not the terrorists."

    In the United States, in the 40 states that have "right-to-carry" laws, violent crime rates on average are 26 percent lower than the rest of the nation. Yet, Obama has supported federal legislation to supersede the rights of citizens carrying weapons because the laws in those other states are "threatening the safety of Illinois residents." Never mind the truth, such as the fact that the seven states with the lowest violent crime rates are "right-to-carry" states, according to FBI statistics.

    Even before Barack Obama's inauguration, he was making moves that raised more concerns among those who believe in the right to self-defense, with the selection of Eric Holder as his potential attorney general and Rahm Emanuel as chief of staff of the White House. John Snyder, a spokesman for the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, observed: "Holder has stated that the Second Amendment does not protect an individual right to keep and bear arms. Emanuel worked at the White House for passage of the Clinton administration ban on certain semiautomatic firearms, which President Clinton himself later admitted led to Democrat loss of the House in the 1994 elections."

    The right to keep and bear arms is not restricted to hunters, despite the claims of certain politicians and left-wing activists. Asserting this right not only has an effect on crime, but it also tends to protect citizens from terrorists and tyranny. As Texas Representative Ron Paul put it: "As long as there is metalworking and welding capability, it matters not what gun laws are imposed upon law-abiding people. Those that wish to have guns, and disregard the law, will have guns. Gun control makes violence safer and more effective for the aggressive, whether the aggressor is a terrorist or a government."

    While Barack Obama has been urging citizens not to stock up on weapons because they mistrust him, other anti-gunners are a tad more candid, seeing in the new administration an opportunity to disarm Americans. The Brady Campaign, the day after the election, was demanding the adoption of what it duplicitously calls "common sense gun laws." Similarly, John Rosenthal, co-founder of Stop Handgun Violence, gleefully wrote in the Boston Globe: "With the historic election of Barack Obama, the nation finally has an opportunity to enact sensible national gun control policy."

    Not so. We already have such a "policy." It is called the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

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    'I believe in common-sense gun safety laws...' Obama said at a news conference. 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...'

    If one of these statements is true then the other cannot be true.

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    After borrowing a babelfish from Ford Prefect, I heard the literal translation of the designation.. Obama.. it is anVogan word meaning.. FAIL..

    Even though this information is known to a lot of us, I believe there is still a lot of citizens who are not up to speed so an occasional repost is not so bad. It was not so long ago I too was a sheeple living in condition white..

    J

    "All hail J! All hail J!"



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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    To quote an old saying from the Musical "Hello Dolly" 99.9% of the people in the world today are fools, and the rest of us are in great danger of contamination." Anyone that believes that BHO and his Liberal socialist ant-gun gun grabbin tree huggin Kum Bai Ya singin touchy feely Barney the dinosaur I love you you love me singin Kool aid drinkin swivel hip punks are not gonna do everything in their power to disarm "We the People" and turn this nation into a nation of slaves,,,is sadly disillusional.
    Now,,you want me to tell you how I really feel?
    Keep your powder dry !
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member dukenukum's Avatar
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    and I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale cheap .

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    KansasMustang wrote:
    ,,,is sadly disillusional.
    You misunderestimate us!

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    The Donkey wrote:
    KansasMustang wrote:
    ,,,is sadly disillusional.
    You misunderestimate us!
    Sokay, I should have said Delusional HOWEVER Donkey, where I come from we have another saying. If the shoe fits, wear it. You know exactly what I meant. South end of a north bound mule.
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    The Donkey wrote:
    KansasMustang wrote:
    ,,,is sadly disillusional.
    You misunderestimate us!
    Not at all. I always had a low opinion of Obama supporters and they've done everything humanly possible to live down to it, ESPECIALLY with regard to individual liberties.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    There are important differences between an ass and a mule:

    but as far as the American people are concerned, I like to think of them like Balaam's ass: unwilling to be lead where they oughtn't go. See Numbers 22:23-32.

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    You didn't go far enough, Because the Lord spoke to Balaam and said you cannot curse the ones I have blessed.
    No we will not be lead, nor beaten to where we shouldn't go. You amaze me Donkey.
    I too keep my Bible handy since I'm a "Bitter Clinger"
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    KansasMustang wrote:
    You didn't go far enough, Because the Lord spoke to Balaam and said you cannot curse the ones I have blessed.
    No we will not be lead, nor beaten to where we shouldn't go. You amaze me Donkey.
    I too keep my Bible handy since I'm a "Bitter Clinger"

    A call for militia? Civil defense?

    [Ezek 9:1.29] He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

    [Matthew 10:34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword. -- Jesus

    β€˜β€˜You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.’’ β€” Charles A. Beard


    β€˜β€˜War clouds were gathering rapidly. The sending of more than 3,000 British army regulars under Maj. Gen. Thomas Gage to Boston further exacerbated the imperial rift. When a column of these troops under Lt. Col. Francis Smith moved into the countryside to collect arms and munitions gathered by the patriot militia, hostilities erupted at Lexington and Concord on Apr. 19, 1775.’’

    We are just the most recent to fight the battle.

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    And part of BOH's plan for to boost the economy with the Trillion dollar "economic Boost? " is for the creating or "saving" 3 million jobs. Of these jobs 85% are supposed to be in the "private sector". 600,000 will be government? Anyone else heard about his plan to have a 600K "Civilian force" that is as well funded, well equipped and well trained as the US Armed Forces?? Can anyone else say "Peoples Army" ??
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    (Rev.6:3,7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, come. I looked and there before me was a pale horse! It's rider was named Death and Hell followed close behind him.
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Deanimator wrote:
    The Donkey wrote:
    KansasMustang wrote:
    ,,,is sadly disillusional.
    You misunderestimate us!
    Not at all. I always had a low opinion of Obama supporters and they've done everything humanly possible to live down to it, ESPECIALLY with regard to individual liberties.
    I had a low expectations for BHO, his incoming administration and the new congress and they have thus far failed to achieve them.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    Deanimator wrote:
    The Donkey wrote:
    KansasMustang wrote:
    ,,,is sadly disillusional.
    You misunderestimate us!
    Not at all. I always had a low opinion of Obama supporters and they've done everything humanly possible to live down to it, ESPECIALLY with regard to individual liberties.
    I had a low expectations for BHO, his incoming administration and the new congress and they have thus far failed to achieve them.
    I think it's completely unreasonable to expect the Treasury Secretary to pay his taxes!
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Well,,they expect me to pay mine,,ands yes I did file,,and wound up owing 4000 more, even after the 10K I'd already paid,,dang, you'd think I was rich or sumpin'.
    If I had all that money I'd have some guns,,even after the tragic boating accident,,,
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    KansasMustang wrote:
    Well,,they expect me to pay mine,,ands yes I did file,,and wound up owing 4000 more, even after the 10K I'd already paid,,dang, you'd think I was rich or sumpin'.
    If I had all that money I'd have some guns,,even after the tragic boating accident,,,
    I'll bet you think that Chicago aldermen should have to register their guns [like everyone else]... and BEFORE the registration has been expired for a year!
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Deanimator wrote:
    KansasMustang wrote:
    Well,,they expect me to pay mine,,ands yes I did file,,and wound up owing 4000 more, even after the 10K I'd already paid,,dang, you'd think I was rich or sumpin'.
    If I had all that money I'd have some guns,,even after the tragic boating accident,,,
    I'll bet you think that Chicago aldermen should have to register their guns [like everyone else]... and BEFORE the registration has been expired for a year!
    But,,don't they?
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    The Donkey wrote:
    There are important differences between an ass and a mule:

    but as far as the American people are concerned, I like to think of them like Balaam's ass: unwilling to be lead where they oughtn't go. See Numbers 22:23-32.
    The biggest problem among Democrats: They tend to think that they know what's best for the individual, more so than the individual himself.

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    cccook wrote:
    'I believe in common-sense gun safety laws...' Obama said at a news conference. 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...'

    If one of these statements is true then the other cannot be true.
    There is a way that both statements can be true...

    Common-sense gun safety laws... mandate that part of public / private education is mandatory firearm training by qualified instructors / groups on the safe handling and usage of common firearms.

    As for 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...', just make it such that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated under the 14th and encourage lawful gun ownership by offering a small (~$100) income tax credit for each person who lawfully purchases a firearm each year.

    Support for gun owners by requiring all citizens to have safety training by qualified instructors and encouraging / protecting lawful ownership.

    Yeah yeah. I know. Snowball's chance and all that.

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    DopaVash wrote:
    The Donkey wrote:
    There are important differences between an ass and a mule:

    but as far as the American people are concerned, I like to think of them like Balaam's ass: unwilling to be lead where they oughtn't go. See Numbers 22:23-32.
    The biggest problem among Democrats: They tend to think that they know what's best for the individual, more so than the individual himself.
    Replace "Democrats" with "Statists", and you'd be spot-on.
    • There are plenty of Statist Republicans who also feel they know what's best:
      They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to play internet poker, or any other internet gambling.
    • They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to use a natural herbal medicine which carries zero risk of overdose or fatality.
    • They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to choose his or her sexual stimulation of choice, if such involves anything more than married heterosexual couples in the dark, under the covers, in the missionary position. (Which can be fun, but which makes for pretty sad porn.)
    • They know the individual shouldn't be free to pick up a six-pack at his suburban corner store in their precious "dry" territory, but instead should have to drive miles to enjoy a drink.
    Et cetera, et cetera, und so weiter.

    The problem is not the party in power, it's the power of being in power.


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    KBCraig wrote:
    Replace "Democrats" with "Statists", and you'd be spot-on.
    • There are plenty of Statist Republicans who also feel they know what's best:
      They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to play internet poker, or any other internet gambling.
    • They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to use a natural herbal medicine which carries zero risk of overdose or fatality.
    • They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to choose his or her sexual stimulation of choice, if such involves anything more than married heterosexual couples in the dark, under the covers, in the missionary position. (Which can be fun, but which makes for pretty sad porn.)
    • They know the individual shouldn't be free to pick up a six-pack at his suburban corner store in their precious "dry" territory, but instead should have to drive miles to enjoy a drink.
    Et cetera, et cetera, und so weiter.

    The problem is not the party in power, it's the power of being in power.
    I probably should have said Most Democrats. There are some Conservative minded ones, just like there are some very liberal Republicans. I have to disagree with you, however. It seems like you have a very misguided view of the Republican party. I don't blame you, there is not much unity in it at the moment.

    I will have to agree with you that these things should be left to the individual to decide on. The problem lies in that so many folks have been so coddled by our Govt that they no longer have the ability to make intelligent, responsible decisions for themselves. So in all, Both viewpoints are right on these issues. One mindset says "People need to choose for themselves!" which is true, after all that's what liberty really is. And the other says "These things will harm society!" Which is also true, because of the nanny-state that we've created, people will not stray from such dangers because "Someone will bail me out." In creating a nation with a mentality of preventing folks from failing, we've created a nation where its increasingly harder to succeed.


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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    I see almost no differentiation between democrats and republicans, in the scope of politics.

    - Both have become overwhelmingly displaced with their power in the (strict 2-party) system.

    - Both parties share the same passion of elimination people's rights and moving towards a more socialist way of government.

    Etc, etc etc.

    Now, was for the representatives themselves... It depends solely on their voting record and stances (either for, or against the people and their rights). Those two things depend solely on who their contributors are.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    darthmord wrote:
    (snip)
    As for 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...', just make it such that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated under the 14th and encourage lawful gun ownership by offering a small (~$100) income tax credit per firearm for each person who lawfully purchases a firearm each year.

    Support for gun owners by requiring all citizens to have safety training by qualified instructors and encouraging / protecting lawful ownership.

    Yeah yeah. I know. Snowball's chance and all that.
    Fixed for the free people's republic.

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    demnogis wrote:
    I see almost no differentiation between democrats and republicans, in the scope of politics.

    - Both have become overwhelmingly displaced with their power in the (strict 2-party) system.

    - Both parties share the same passion of elimination people's rights and moving towards a more socialist way of government.

    Etc, etc etc.

    Now, was for the representatives themselves... It depends solely on their voting record and stances (either for, or against the people and their rights).Β* Those two things depend solely on who their contributors are.
    +1000

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