Skepticism About Second Amendment Support

The Donkey wrote:

There are important differences between an ass and a mule:

but as far as the American people are concerned, I like to think of them like Balaam's ass: unwilling to be lead where they oughtn't go. See Numbers 22:23-32.

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The biggest problem among Democrats: They tend to think that they know what's best for the individual, more so than the individual himself.

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• There are plenty of Statist Republicans who also feel they know what's best:
  They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to play internet poker, or any other internet gambling.
• They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to use a natural herbal medicine which carries zero risk of overdose or fatality.
• They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to choose his or her sexual stimulation of choice, if such involves anything more than married heterosexual couples in the dark, under the covers, in the missionary position. (Which can be fun, but which makes for pretty sad porn.)
• They know the individual shouldn't be free to pick up a six-pack at his suburban corner store in their precious "dry" territory, but instead should have to drive miles to enjoy a drink.

Replace "Democrats" with "Statists", and you'd be spot-on.

• There are plenty of Statist Republicans who also feel they know what's best:
  They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to play internet poker, or any other internet gambling.
• They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to use a natural herbal medicine which carries zero risk of overdose or fatality.
• They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to choose his or her sexual stimulation of choice, if such involves anything more than married heterosexual couples in the dark, under the covers, in the missionary position. (Which can be fun, but which makes for pretty sad porn.)
• They know the individual shouldn't be free to pick up a six-pack at his suburban corner store in their precious "dry" territory, but instead should have to drive miles to enjoy a drink.

Et cetera, et cetera, und so weiter.

The problem is not the party in power, it's the power of being in power.

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(snip)
As for 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...', just make it such that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated under the 14th and encourage lawful gun ownership by offering a small (~$100) income tax credit per firearm for each person who lawfully purchases a firearm each year.

Support for gun owners by requiring all citizens to have safety training by qualified instructors and encouraging / protecting lawful ownership.

Yeah yeah. I know. Snowball's chance and all that.

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I see almost no differentiation between democrats and republicans, in the scope of politics.

- Both have become overwhelmingly displaced with their power in the (strict 2-party) system.

- Both parties share the same passion of elimination people's rights and moving towards a more socialist way of government.

Etc, etc etc.

Now, was for the representatives themselves... It depends solely on their voting record and stances (either for, or against the people and their rights).  Those two things depend solely on who their contributors are.

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darthmord wrote:

(snip)
As for 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...', just make it such that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated under the 14th and encourage lawful gun ownership by offering a small (~$100) income tax credit per firearm for each person who lawfully purchases a firearm each year.

Support for gun owners by requiring all citizens to have safety training by qualified instructors and encouraging / protecting lawful ownership.

Yeah yeah. I know. Snowball's chance and all that.

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Fixed for the free people's republic.

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cccook wrote:

'I believe in common-sense gun safety laws...' Obama said at a news conference. 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...'

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If one of these statements is true then the other cannot be true.

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There is a way that both statements can be true...

Common-sense gun safety laws... mandate that part of public / private education is mandatory firearm training by qualified instructors / groups on the safe handling and usage of common firearms.

As for 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...', just make it such that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated under the 14th and encourage lawful gun ownership by offering a small (~$100) income tax credit for each person who lawfully purchases a firearm each year.

Support for gun owners by requiring all citizens to have safety training by qualified instructors and encouraging / protecting lawful ownership.

Yeah yeah. I know. Snowball's chance and all that.

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Replace "Democrats" with "Statists", and you'd be spot-on.

• There are plenty of Statist Republicans who also feel they know what's best:
  They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to play internet poker, or any other internet gambling.
• They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to use a natural herbal medicine which carries zero risk of overdose or fatality.
• They know the individual shouldn't be trusted to choose his or her sexual stimulation of choice, if such involves anything more than married heterosexual couples in the dark, under the covers, in the missionary position. (Which can be fun, but which makes for pretty sad porn.)
• They know the individual shouldn't be free to pick up a six-pack at his suburban corner store in their precious "dry" territory, but instead should have to drive miles to enjoy a drink.

Et cetera, et cetera, und so weiter.

The problem is not the party in power, it's the power of being in power.

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darthmord wrote:

cccook wrote:

'I believe in common-sense gun safety laws...' Obama said at a news conference. 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...'

Click to expand...

If one of these statements is true then the other cannot be true.

Click to expand...

There is a way that both statements can be true...

Common-sense gun safety laws... mandate that part of public / private education is mandatory firearm training by qualified instructors / groups on the safe handling and usage of common firearms.

As for 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...', just make it such that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated under the 14th and encourage lawful gun ownership by offering a small (~$100) income tax credit for each person who lawfully purchases a firearm each year.

Support for gun owners by requiring all citizens to have safety training by qualified instructors and encouraging / protecting lawful ownership.

Yeah yeah. I know. Snowball's chance and all that.

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Your intentions may be good (in your mind) but the end result is just another law which rabid anti-gun-rights liberals will use against us. Introducing any such legislation would be a grave error in judgement.


Any time you require the public to undergo training by "Qualified Instructors" you are adding a level of red-tape that infringes on our right to keep and bear arms. A tyrannical government could arbitrarily disqualify all instructors, thus effectivelypreventing the public from acquiring firearms without actually banning guns.

This is precisely what happened in DC that eventually resulted in DC losing DC vs Heller. DC arbitrarily denied all gun permit applications. DC wasn't actually "banning" guns, they just had "Common Sense Permitting" where no DC authority was issuing the permits.

This is also what is effectively banning Title II NFA weapons such as Destructive Devices, Any Other Weapons, Machine Guns, Short-Barreled Rifles, Short-BarrelledShotguns, Sound Suppressors, etc. All you need is to fill out a BATFE Form 4 with a Chief Law Enforcement Officer signature, send it off with some background info to the BATFE and get your tax stamp to own your Title II NFA Weapon. However, not all CLEO's are willing to sign the form 4. Some of them arbitrarily refuse to sign all form 4's. Thus, if you fall into that CLEO's jurisdiction, Title II weapons are effectively banned, even though they are technically available to you via permitting.

Sorry buddy, but ANY common sense regulation is an infringement. The longer it lasts, the more entrenched the infringement becomes, until we're all like DC...

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There are extremes on both sides of the fence, but the right side is right for a reason.

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There are extremes on both sides of the fence, but the right side is right for a reason.

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Common-sense gun safety laws... mandate that part of public / private education is mandatory firearm training by qualified instructors / groups on the safe handling and usage of common firearms.

As for 'Lawful gun owners have nothing to fear...', just make it such that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated under the 14th and encourage lawful gun ownership by offering a small (~$100) income tax credit for each person who lawfully purchases a firearm each year.

Support for gun owners by requiring all citizens to have safety training by qualified instructors and encouraging / protecting lawful ownership.

Yeah yeah. I know. Snowball's chance and all that.

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Keep in mind, .40 Cal, that the "right" and "left" have "bipartisan"-ly aligned themselves in their agendas to eliminate our rights and replace them with privileges. They are either for our freedoms or against, and by the voting records of the "left" and "right" in the last few years it is apparant by a majority they are against. Be careful in who you support.

.40 Cal wrote:

There are extremes on both sides of the fence, but the right side is right for a reason.

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.40 Cal wrote:

There are extremes on both sides of the fence, but the right side is right for a reason.

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Because of the French Estates-General?

Just a little FYI, the Classical Liberals (which here in America included men like Jefferson) originally sat on the Left in the Estates-General.

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marshaul wrote:

.40 Cal wrote:

There are extremes on both sides of the fence, but the right side is right for a reason.

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Because of the French Estates-General?

Just a little FYI, the Classical Liberals (which here in America included men like Jefferson) originally sat on the Left in the Estates-General.

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I understand.  The were the progressives of their time.  The difference is that their actions made sense.

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You may want to re-read the post you quoted. At no time in my post you quoted (or in the text above) did I advocate tieing training to firearm ownership. That's a stupid and dangerous path to tread.I refuse to walk that path.

I'm not so stupid as to ask the government to require certain things AND tie them to firearm ownership. That gives the government an inch they'll use to take a mile.

The idea behind mandatory training for all citizens, whether they are gun owners or not is to provide exposure and hopefully breed some level of familiarity. People fear what they don't know. If they have had some level of training in safety around firearms, they will be less fearful of the presence of a firearm.

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Common sense gun laws are quite simple. They simply need to be written such that they support & defend the 2nd Amendment as being an individual right recognized (and affirmed) by the Constitution & BoR; that limits/restrictions on purchasing including quantity and types be abolished; that limits/restrictions on method-of-carry be abolished.

IMO, the only limits on where one can carry should be solely based on the discretion of the property owner.Public property including all government buildings would beopen to carry at all times (since the public or the People own the property and the People have the RTKB).

I know, nice pipe dream. I doubt it'll happen in my lifetime.

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