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Thread: BART Shooting

  1. #1
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    Mike and I have had to close or delete several threads about this incident which is a shame. Many thoughtful comments were lost because there were those calling for the execution and lynching of the officer involved.

    THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!

    Do I think the officer will ultimately face criminal charges? Based upon the video evidence I have seen so far, YES I DO.

    Would I allow a frank discussion of the issue? YES I WOULD.

    Will I tolerate these kinds of comments? NOT A CHANCE.



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    Thanks for doing that; those threads were getting out of hand.

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    centsi wrote:
    Thanks for doing that; those threads were getting out of hand.


    The extremists making us all look bad? Nooo! Never!

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    jpierce wrote:
    Mike and I have had to close or delete several threads about this incident which is a shame. Many thoughtful comments were lost because there were those calling for the execution and lynching of the officer involved.

    THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!

    Do I think the officer will ultimately face criminal charges? Based upon the video evidence I have seen so far, YES I DO.

    Would I allow a frank discussion of the issue? YES I WOULD.

    Will I tolerate these kinds of comments? NOT A CHANCE.

    My apologies once again...I started the thread but it was with good intentions to discuss what happened. Maybe sometime later on a discussion can take place that would not be latent with such immaturity.

    Cave

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    thanks for closing those threads down.

    its an insult to lump hard working honest heros like me into with these rouge individual officers.

    we put our bodies and emotions in the line of fire for the people we protect every night we're on the beat.

    god bless me

  6. #6
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    I apologize for my comments in several of the threads. They were in fact sarcasm, but I go too far with that occasionally.

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    Closing them would be better, then we could just copy/paste our intelligent post to the new discussion.

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    PaulBlart wrote:
    thanks for closing those threads down.

    its an insult to lump hard working honest heros like me into with these route individual officers.

    we put our bodies and emotions in the line of fire for the people we protect every night we're on the beat.

    god bless me


    Go home Johnny.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    jpierce wrote:
    Mike and I have had to close or delete several threads about this incident which is a shame. Many thoughtful comments were lost because there were those calling for the execution and lynching of the officer involved.

    THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!

    Do I think the officer will ultimately face criminal charges? Based upon the video evidence I have seen so far, YES I DO.

    Would I allow a frank discussion of the issue? YES I WOULD.

    Will I tolerate these kinds of comments? NOT A CHANCE.

    +1

    I support your decision100%
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  10. #10
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    The video certainly seems to scream murder. Victim on the ground, shot in the back.

    Very bad precedent not arresting the shooter. Makes it seem like a two tier system with no justice for those in the lower tier.

    Maybe it was a mistake, but whether it is murder or manslaughter is a job for the jury. Tasers are not an appropriate tool for the police. Many are killed by the continued over use of the weapons and poor training of police in their use.

    Riots will continue to harm the community until the public sees that the police are not above the law.


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Thundar wrote:
    The video certainly seems to scream murder. Victim on the ground, shot in the back.

    Very bad precedent not arresting the shooter. Makes it seem like a two tier system with no justice for those in the lower tier.

    Maybe it was a mistake, but whether it is murder or manslaughter is a job for the jury. Tasers are not an appropriate tool for the police. Many are killed by the continued over use of the weapons and poor training of police in their use.

    Riots will continue to harm the community until the public sees that the police are not above the law.

    Not speaking to Thundar specifically, but -


    On the surface you are correct, but video is not always what it appears to be at first to the untrained viewer. For one thing a cell phone misses some of the action because of the frame capture rate. Also it is not full frame video, so it is of severely reduced resolution. It is in compressed format further degrading what is in the image. Then all of us are viewing it on the Internet, and where it is sent to your computer to play in a 3x4" inch or lessbox. Under those conditions what you see in the video can be quite deceptive.

    I agree with everyone else here that there are some serious problems based on what we know at this time.

    But I do know this.

    I know the person personally who will likelyprocess all the video, and that person DOES NOT work for the police department or the BART authority. I know the person to be of the highest personal and professional integrity, and ethical background. They will NOT be bullied by anyone to reach a conclusion not support by the evidence. There will be no white washing or cover up. The evidence will be allowed to speak either for or against those involved.

    So all I ask is for everyone to wait until ALL the evidence comes out before anyone judges these people.

    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  12. #12
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    To me the video screams accident. His body language before the shot did not look to me like someone thinking about shooting somebody and after the shot his body language was definately that of someone who really wishes they could have the last five seconds of their life back.

    The only ear witness I've heard said that, right before the shot, the suspect was basically saying "Don't Tase me, bro", one of the officers appears to let go right before the shot like he was expecting a Tase to happen, and no one has given me a logical reason for the officer to suddenly decide to blatantly murder somebody who was clearly not a threat in front of dozens of witnesses.

    I agree that some departments misuse Tasers, from what I saw in the video this guy looked pretty much under control and Tasing him would have been abusive, but I disagree with the idea that Tasers can't be a useful police tool. Sure bad things can happen with Tasers, but anytime police have to arrest an actively resisting person bad things happen.

    All that said, police should not be above the law. This guy killed somebody, on tape, through IMO incredible negligence. They should probably charge this guy with negligent homicide or something like that and let a jury sort it out.

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    Thundar wrote:
    Riots will continue to harm the community until the public sees that the police are not above the law.

    I've never fully understood the whole "let's burn down our neighborhood and trash everything" rational for protesting something that was done by someone that doesn't live anywhere nearthe neighborhood involved. Why do people trash their own place to get even with someone from somewhere else? Not that I want them to go elsewhere and trash that place, it's just, what does it do to destroy your own neighborhood?

    Frequently this is followed by cries for help because of economic depression in the same area. Why can't they see why businesses would not want to come to their neighborhood? They already burned out the last ones who came in.

    A far more effective approach would be a peaceful march to City Hall, or the StateCapitol, like civil rights marches of the past. This still gets the attention that is necessary, but it leaves the neighborhood still intact. This would also allow for reporters to get up close and interview the people to get them on TV, present them in a good light, and show that these law abiding citizens deserve better treatment.

    Rioting makes the people involved look like a bunch of thugs and punks. Of course, the government frequently gives in to the riots like an over indulgent parent giving in to a spoiled child's tantrum, so I guess that I've just answered my own question.

    I suspect that the rioters are in truth, less concerned with the injustice, and more in just using it as an excuse to trash the neighborhood.

    Sorry about the rant, it just drives me a little crazy.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    I've watched the video. Suspect was in cuffs... numerous 'police 'warm bodies' involved. 'Appears that this officer wanted to get a 'lick' in and tase the man. (Unnecessary IMHO) Cop was excited... drew the 'wrong' weapon. I dunno HOW one could do that... but he definaltely shot him in the back at close range for no legitimate reason. I'm certain a jury will decide his fate.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    PaulBlart wrote:
    thanks for closing those threads down.

    its an insult to lump hard working honest heros like me into with these route individual officers.

    we put our bodies and emotions in the line of fire for the people we protect every night we're on the beat.

    god bless me
    Oh pul-eeeze! I was a 'real' cop... You look like a housecat donut depository in comparison. Anyone who callsthemselves a 'hero'... ain't.

    "god bless me"(?) What'd you do... sneeze from the powdered sugar?

    BTW... "God" is always capitalized.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    PaulBlart wrote:
    thanks for closing those threads down.

    its an insult to lump hard working honest heros like me into with these route individual officers.

    we put our bodies and emotions in the line of fire for the people we protect every night we're on the beat.

    god bless me
    Oh pul-eeeze! I was a 'real' cop... You look like a housecat donut depository in comparison. Anyone who callsthemselves a 'hero'... ain't.

    "god bless me"(?) What'd you do... sneeze from the powdered sugar?

    BTW... "God" is always capitalized.
    don't trivialize my honored profession

    i've saved lives. how many have you saved?

    here is me in action, keeping this man safe.



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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    PaulBlart wrote:
    thanks for closing those threads down.

    its an insult to lump hard working honest heros like me into with these route individual officers.

    we put our bodies and emotions in the line of fire for the people we protect every night we're on the beat.

    god bless me
    Oh pul-eeeze! I was a 'real' cop... You look like a housecat donut depository in comparison. Anyone who callsthemselves a 'hero'... ain't.

    "god bless me"(?) What'd you do... sneeze from the powdered sugar?

    BTW... "God" is always capitalized.
    Just FYI.

    Paul Blart is a character in the new movie "Paul Blart: Mall Cop" that is a theater near you right now.

    The particular person now using that name here, has been banned under other handles in the past and is now trying to fly under the radar. He is actually a "20 something" who has trolled the forum under at least the two previoushandles of"JonnyB", and "MrBiggles". Both of those handles are now banned, and I expect "PaulBlart" will not be far behind.

    (Watch this space and you will see what I mean)

    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:

    So all I ask is for everyone to wait until ALL the evidence comes out before anyone judges these people.

    See there you go again,saying that we keep our opinions to ourselves. What is is with you wanting to muzzle our freedom of speech ?

    I've seen "8" Different, video's of this shooting incident. You don't have to be some super sneaky LEO, who is a highly trained video watcher to know that, an unarmed man, was shot and killed, while lying face down.

    An innocent man also has no need to quit his job. It's sad, but the man knows what he did was wrong. Whether it be an accident or not. I do believe it to be an accident, just a very costly one. Costly for him and his poor family.


    I say theLEO went for histazer, pulled out his piece, fired, then his body language shows his suprise.







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    Dustin wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:

    So all I ask is for everyone to wait until ALL the evidence comes out before anyone judges these people.
    I say theLEO went for histazer, pulled out his piece, fired, then his body language shows his suprise.

    you're most likely correct.

    but the sad part is... this is happened many times... and i believe everytime the LEO has not had any charges brought against him.

    it would be AT LEAST man slaughter for any "normal" person.

    but heros like me get a pass, our job is hard you know

  20. #20
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Heh... 'ReckonI been had. 'Ain't been to a 'walk-in' movie since '98, soI don't pay much attention to that stuff.

    But actually... I've saved lives (temporarily) 4 times. I say temprorarily 'causeI only prolonged their dyin' by a dayor less. They were pretty far gone.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Dustin wrote:
    ...SNIP
    See there you go again,saying that we keep our opinions to ourselves. What is is with you wanting to muzzle our freedom of speech ?


    Yes I am saying that in this society, this man has a right (which you are trampling) to due process, without prejudgement from ANYONE, including you. By stating your "opinion" as to his guilt or innocence you (and others) are damaging his right to enter a courtroom with the presumption of innocence.

    Now I suppose that is only important to him and his family, and should be of no concern to you, unless you want to live in a society like China, where you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. I for one do not like that approach and I prefer to argue for a mans innocence until he is PROVED guilty in a court of proper jurisdiction. You obviously feel different.

    Your opinions as to what you postulate may have happened are legit, so are discussions in other areas, but where people cross the line is with statements that prejudge this mans guilt. So yes I will argue for his rights just as I would for yours. You have a right to an opinion, but you do not have the right to prejudge this man under our laws. By the way, I have the right to MY opinion that you are violating his rights and should not do so.

    Please cite legal precedent or code sections if your opinions on prejudgmentdiffer.


    My view come from HERE-

    "Amendment V

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    Amendment VI

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. "




    Edit to add citation
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  22. #22
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Dustin wrote:
    ...SNIP
    See there you go again,saying that we keep our opinions to ourselves. What is is with you wanting to muzzle our freedom of speech ?
    Yes I am saying that in this society, this man has a right (which you are trampling) to due process, without prejudgement from ANYONE, including you. By stating your "opinion" as to his guilt or innocence you (and others) are damaging his right to enter a courtroom with the presumption of innocence.

    Now I suppose that is only important to him and his family, and should be of no concern to you, unless you want to live in a society like China, where you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. I for one do not like that approach and I prefer to argue for a mans innocence until he is PROVED guilty in a court of proper jurisdiction. You obviously feel different.
    where the @#$% have you been? "normal" people are always guilty until proven innocent in our country today, at least in LE's book. you know this... if this weren't the case we wouldn't have OCers stopped every day to prove they're not felons.

    this person, and everyone else DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT for other citizens not to "pre-judge" him, or consider him guilty.'

    he only has "guilty until proven innocent" rights in court.

    its a hard tough dirty job, but someone has to do it! thank me


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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Heh... 'ReckonI been had. 'Ain't been to a 'walk-in' movie since '98, soI don't pay much attention to that stuff.

    But actually... I've saved lives (temporarily) 4 times. I say temprorarily 'causeI only prolonged their dyin' by a dayor less. They were pretty far gone.
    i haven't either. but i'm gunna see this one... too funny to wait for dvd.

    guess you didn't save em after all. you might not have what it takes to be a hero like i do

  24. #24
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Is a taser, by itself, a deadly weapon? Many people in the US have died from the use / misuse of the taser.

    It is often used as a police compliance tool. Not always unjustified, but with many documented abuses, the taser seems to be the equivalent of the billy club. When used by striking the thigh, it is an effective , less than lethal weapon. When used to crack skulls the effect is more lethal and denigrates the police force that uses the tactics. Same with tasers.

    IMHO the use of a taser is an assault with a deadly weapon. It may be justifiable or excusable, but the use for crowd control or compliance is wrong. The people are human beings. We don't use cattle prods and electric c shock, nor should we use tasers, except when the use of deadly force is justified.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  25. #25
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Dustin wrote:
    ...SNIP
    See there you go again,saying that we keep our opinions to ourselves. What is is with you wanting to muzzle our freedom of speech ?
    Yes I am saying that in this society, this man has a right (which you are trampling) to due process, without prejudgement from ANYONE, including you. By stating your "opinion" as to his guilt or innocence you (and others) are damaging his right to enter a courtroom with the presumption of innocence.

    Now I suppose that is only important to him and his family, and should be of no concern to you, unless you want to live in a society like China, where you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. I for one do not like that approach and I prefer to argue for a mans innocence until he is PROVED guilty in a court of proper jurisdiction. You obviously feel different.

    Your opinions as to what you postulate may have happened are legit, so are discussions in other areas, but where people cross the line is with statements that prejudge this mans guilt. So yes I will argue for his rights just as I would for yours. You have a right to an opinion, but you do not have the right to prejudge this man under our laws. By the way, I have the right to MY opinion that you are violating his rights and should not do so.

    Please cite legal precedent or code sections if your opinions on prejudgmentdiffer.
    I'm not violating his rights with my freedom of speech.

    Your arguing that he is innocent until a court proves him guilty. I'm not arguing against that, but IN MY OWN OPINION, he is guilty. I'm entitlted to that opinion. So stop telling me I can't have it. It's like your just trying to derail this topic like you've done the past 3 that were open. How about we stay on topic. Which is discussing the shooting and not telling people to hold their own opinions until later.

    We live in a police state. We are all guilty until proven innocent, EXCEPT IF your a COP.

    For example, Is theCOP that did thisin Jail right now ? - Nope

    If this were a civilian, where would they be ? - JAIL !

    This is why they are rioting. This is why people are pissed. This is why LEO in America is looked down upon.

    Every civilianisGuilty until proven innocent, only LE have the right to be Innocent until proven guilty.


    He'll sit there in his home, until they look over all the evidence, and then decide to go an arrest him.



    You, me, we'd be in Jail Buddy !

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