BART Shooting

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buster81 wrote:

MetalChris wrote:

I've been tempted to go to O.com and seewhat the pigs are squealing about...

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Pigs might be uncalled for.

You should check it out over there. According to most of them, this LEO was reaching for his taser to subdue the man on his stomach, so you should read up on the thread dedicated to humorous phrases used to describe the process of applying a taser to someone. If in fact he was reaching for his taser, I hope he testifies that he intended to make this poor fool “ride the lightning”, or “do the electric chicken” or my favorite, “do the floppy chicken”. That ought to really help his case.

I can't wait to hear some of the knee-slappers they come up with for shooting an unarmed man.

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Myself, I'm pretty partial to the neo-Nazi screeds that supporters of the police so often post in defense of similar actions by police. They're so common on Chicago newspaper websites, it's no more out of the ordinary than a popup add. No doubt, they add immeasurably to the credibility of those who support the police in such incidents.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

buster81 wrote:

MetalChris wrote:

I've been tempted to go to O.com and seewhat the pigs are squealing about...

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Pigs might be uncalled for.

SNIP...

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I was not going to dignify that post with a response, but since you brought it up I agree, that comment is over the line.

These things are very easy to write when you think you will never have to meet people who take offense face to face. I would suggest you not post anything you would not be willing to say to the least tolerant person you can imagine, or his widow.

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That kind of sounds like a threat. I guess it goes with the "jokes", racial slurs and references to the "ghetto lottery" whenever a Black person is shot by police in a CLEARLY wrongful manner. Of course we were treated to a generous helping of "she had it coming" in the Karolyna Obrycka case too.

You willing to look the dead guy's family in the eye?

I didn't think so.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Actually in this case your prejudice is overshadowing your thinking.

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That's possible. Because I have seen 4+ hours of audio destroyed after a subpoena was issued for it.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Those videos are not really motion images of the people on that rail platform.  They are a series of digital still images, shown in rapid succession and your brain tricks you into seeing them as smooth movement of the subjects in the images.  The cell phone videos are probably recorded at something between 11 and 24 "frames" per second (FPS).  That is in part why the motion does not seem as natural as it does on TV.  In the US, NTSC standard video like on your analog TV is 30 FPS.  With that analog video there are actually 60 separate "fields" per second.  NTSC video when digitized is 720x486 pixels.  Cell phone video is typically 320x243, or less.  That is 1/4 of the information in a full sized image, and nominally 1/3 of the total number of images, but cell phone video is also progressive digital and has only 1/2 of the number of images as analog video to start with.  Do you really think that cell phone video should be viewed and considered in the same way and with the same weight as we would other video sources?

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This is all quite irrelevant and basically a red herring.

The resolution and framerate are quite irrelevant. Progressive vs interlaced scanning is also quite irrelevant.

In the video I posted, you can see the officer deliberately go for his handgun. There is no question that he goes directly for it and "finds" whatever he was going for without any fumbling.

It doesn't take 1080i60 to see this. It's plain as day, poor video quality and all.

The only thing missing from the video is intent.

I submit that I can prove intent using the four rules of firearms safety, which of course a "veteran" police officer knows by heart. :quirky

1: All firearms are always loaded.
2: Keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction (only point the muzzle at something you are willing to destroy).
3: Keep your finger off the trigger until you are going to fire.
4: Know your target and what is beyond.

The fact that the officer drew his weapon and fired means he "violated" rules 2 and 3. Of course, he's too well-trained as a "2 year veteran" do possibly do something like that, so we can assume the officer was actually following the rules carefully.

Which means, according to 2 and 3, he was "willing to destroy" the target (muzzle covering him) and he had "intent to fire" (finger on the trigger).

This adds up to intent. The Tazer defense nullifies this, but then you already know that I believe that to be 110% unmitigated BS.

I carry a gun. There's no way you "mistakenly" grab your Tazer. People who carry know where every piece of equipment on their belt is. Period. Especially "two year veterans".

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Sheriff wrote:

rds801 wrote:

When this shooting first made the news, there were rumors going around saying that police were taking peoples cell phones. How true was that? Why?  

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I would assume it's true.  The BART police confiscated one video of the shooting, which means they had to take the entire cell phone.  You don't simply turn a cell phone upside down, shake it, and the video falls out in your hand. 

Why?  Cops generally don't want video to exist of any critical incident in which they might have been wrong.  It's human nature.

 

 

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Actually in this case your prejudice is overshadowing your thinking.  Most LEOs are trained to seized evidence at a crime scene.  The cell phone video was seized and taken into evidence.  Not because it contained video they wanted to destroy, but because it was evidence in a crime investigation.

That phone AND the video are now in the evidence locker of the Oakland police, who have taken over the investigation.

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I know there are bad cops out there that do bad things. I don't know the good ones from the bad ones (unless I know them on a personal level) so I have to lump all in the bad cop category. Hey, that's what they do with with all citizens, isn't it? "I have to handcuff you for YOUR/OUR safety!"

We have all seen the media photographers get arrested and have their cameras taken and heard about the images being deleted and all that nonsense. And law abiding citizens being detained and found to be breaking no laws so the cops take an hour to try to find something to charge them with.

Cops consider themselves a family so they all get lumped together.

Edited to add I don't hate police. Just don't trust them.

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marshaul wrote:

...SNIP

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This is all quite irrelevant and basically a red herring.

SNIP...

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It is actually neither.

If you had read and understood my post instead if obsessing on trying to convince me of your position, you would know that information was offered as an EXAMPLE indicating that people are not actually looking at what they think they are when they view raw video. The very kinds of details you are claiming to find are the very types of things that may not be as YOU think they are. That however does not prevent you from convincing yourself that you can see everything that happened on that platform, even though you cannot. Self delusion is a powerful thing, as is preconception.

If you do production video then I would not expect you to understand Forensic video or why it is necessary. I have spent a lot of time showing people in your industry things they never knew or even considered about video.

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Deanimator wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

buster81 wrote:

MetalChris wrote:

I've been tempted to go to O.com and seewhat the pigs are squealing about...

Click to expand...

Pigs might be uncalled for.

SNIP...

Click to expand...

I was not going to dignify that post with a response, but since you brought it up I agree, that comment is over the line.

These things are very easy to write when you think you will never have to meet people who take offense face to face. I would suggest you not post anything you would not be willing to say to the least tolerant person you can imagine, or his widow.

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That kind of sounds like a threat. I guess it goes with the "jokes", racial slurs and references to the "ghetto lottery" whenever a Black person is shot by police in a CLEARLY wrongful manner. Of course we were treated to a generous helping of "she had it coming" in the Karolyna Obrycka case too.

You willing to look the dead guy's family in the eye?

I didn't think so.

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First off I don't make threats. If I have something to say I will say it, and I don't post things I would not say to someones face. SO if I was threatening you or anyone else you would know it. Second I have had to look a lot of people in the eye and pass on the horror. I can do that because I have done them no wrong. How about you?

As for "I didn't think so". It is usually considered normal to wait for a response before dismissing the response, but since I am not certain what you think matters at all, I can dismiss your opinion without any pain.

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All of us hereos need to go on strike. After a week... and the economy crumbling, criminals going crazy, millions of dead, the terrorists nuking major cities, and four horsemen running amok... the civilians we give up our lives for will finally appreciate our dedication and obsession with tazers

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rds801 wrote:

...SNIP

I know there are bad cops out there that do bad things. I don't know the good ones from the bad ones (unless I know them on a personal level) so I have to lump all in the bad cop category. Hey, that's what they do with with all citizens, isn't it? "I have to handcuff you for YOUR/OUR safety!"

We have all seen the media photographers get arrested and have their cameras taken and heard about the images being deleted and all that nonsense. And law abiding citizens being detained and found to be breaking no laws so the cops take an hour to try to find something to charge them with.

Cops consider themselves a family so they all get lumped together.

Edited to add I don't hate police. Just don't trust them.

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Maybe it was growing up in the 60's. Maybe it was living through the Vietnam era. Maybe it was the civil rights movement. I really don't know why but for some reason, I have never learned to "Lump" people into categories and make sweeping generalities about them. So I find it very hard to understand you point of view.

As I read the definition, "lumping" people together and generalizing about them is the first step in bigotry. Since I refuse to participate in that sort of thing, I will have to leave it to others to provide that valuable service to our society.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

...for some reason, I have never learned to "Lump" people into categories and make sweeping generalities about them.

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I'm with Hawkflyer on this one. Funny thing about sweeping generalizations...they almost never hold up to any degree of scrutiny.

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Bigotry isn't the word. Just being cautious and knowing that there are cops out there that use their badge to try to get away with whatever they can. Like I said, I don't know the good guys from the bad guys. Come to think about it, I tend to treat all people like that. I don't disrespect anyone when I meet new people. I just keep in the back of my head that I don't know them...black, white, yellow, whatever.

I tend to be more cautious towards cops. I can't remember the last time I was detained by an ordinary citizen and not allowed to walk/drive away. When police can charge you with anything just because they can, and you have to prove otherwise, even when you did nothing wrong......

Maybe if I stopped watching those YOUTUBE videos of police officers violating peoples rights, I might feel different. When I see cops doing wrong it still shocks me. I guess because we try to hold cops to a higher level. Here is a group of people that are suppose to be working for the citizens (am I wrong?) but MOST don't even follow the laws they are hired to enforce. If I see a regular citizen doing wrong, it doesn't surprise me.

Please don't come back at me with "You can't believe everything you see on the internet". I (family members) have personal experience with cops not doing the right thing.

When I was a little kid my parents use to tell me that if I ever got lost or needed help, find a policeman. Wonder how many parents still tell their kids that.

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rds801 wrote:

When I was a little kid my parents use to tell me that if I ever got lost or needed help, find a policeman. Wonder how many parents still tell their kids that.

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only the ones that want their kids taken away by the state for negligence. or want to have their house ransacked by some asshole DHS piece of shit.

we know better

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People here have made up their mind based on a few things after watching the video.

One group seesno logical reason for the officer to shoot the guy. There is the human element involved here and people can make a mistake. That being the taser was meant to be deployed and not a handgun. This is the most logical explanation this group will have. They are open to more proof to the contrary butat this point in time no matter what you see on the videoit appears to be nothing but confusion and the deployment of the wrong item during a crisis moment.


Then you have the opposite group that saw the video and based on whatever their life experience and knowledge is, they havedetermined this to be a cold blooded murder that should be obvious to everyone. There is NO WAY the officer could mistake his handgun fora taser. Different grips, different color, lighter in weight. The officer MUST have meant to shoot this guy and murder him. No reason is necessary.

I present you with the following links so that you maysee for yourself that this is not an isolated incident. The police have on more than one occasion meant to deploy a taser but drew and fired their handgun.




05-03-2003 // No charges against officer
http://www.maderatribune.com/news/newsview.asp?c=56821

12-23-2006 // Sheriff's deputy mistakes pistol for taser
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13512149/

12-19-2007 // California Cop mistakes gun for taser and kills handcuffed suspect
[url]http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/california-cop-mistakes-gun-for-taser-and-kills-handcuffed-suspect/[/url]

02-26-2008 // Man sues PD after officer gets his gun and taser mixed up
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=68802

04-24-2008 // Man Accidentally Shot By Police Improving In Hospital
[url]http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/18144979.html[/url]

06-19-2008 // Deputy who fired gun, not taser, wins suit in federal court
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4183/is_/ai_n26685909



So it is evident from these prior events that is IS possible to mistake when deploying the taser and drawing your handgun.

This was not a casual moment that night. The police were removing several young men that were fighting. As they did people were exiting the train and posturing and yelling at the police for doing their job.

This is clearly going to get the blood pumping not knowing if the train full of peoplewere going to rush them as several passengers can be heard yelling profanity at the police. This is all in the video.

So I can see how you could mean to do one thing and actually do do something else that is done in the same motion. Drawing a gun shaped item and pulling the trigger. It is not mace were you hold it differenly. It is not a baton where you swing it. It is shaped just like a gun.

As I said before, the shooting appears to be unintentional. Even the officer reacted to this afterward wondering what happened.

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they should've all been charged with manslaughter, most got off with nothing. one more reason to love me

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A deputy sheriff who pulled his handgun instead of his Taser cannot be sued by the man he shot, a federal judge has ruled.
Since Purnell's actions were not unreasonable, he is entitled to immunity from suit, the judge ruled.
Henry was wanted for failure to pay child support at the time. He had lied to Purnell about his identity when Purnell came to his home in Eden; then, when Purnell stopped him on the road three days later, he ran.





no child support TAZE HIM, KILL HIM. i love it when i get to taze people.

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rds801 wrote:

Bigotry isn't the word. Just being cautious and knowing that there are cops out there that use their badge to try to get away with whatever they can. Like I said, I don't know the good guys from the bad guys. Come to think about it, I tend to treat all people like that. I don't disrespect anyone when I meet new people. I just keep in the back of my head that I don't know them...black, white, yellow, whatever.

I tend to be more cautious towards cops. I can't remember the last time I was detained by an ordinary citizen and not allowed to walk/drive away. When police can charge you with anything just because they can, and you have to prove otherwise, even when you did nothing wrong......

Maybe if I stopped watching those YOUTUBE videos of police officers violating peoples rights, I might feel different. When I see cops doing wrong it still shocks me. I guess because we try to hold cops to a higher level. Here is a group of people that are suppose to be working for the citizens (am I wrong?) but MOST don't even follow the laws they are hired to enforce. If I see a regular citizen doing wrong, it doesn't surprise me.

Please don't come back at me with "You can't believe everything you see on the internet". I (family members) have personal experience with cops not doing the right thing.

When I was a little kid my parents use to tell me that if I ever got lost or needed help, find a policeman. Wonder how many parents still tell their kids that.

Click to expand...

The problem with your theorem is the scale. There are at least 5,000,000 LE people in the US according to the DOJ. You have seen relatively very few do these things you speak of. Even if you could document that 100,000 LE peopleengage in criminal activity every year, that is only 2%. How is it fair or even reasonable to say they are all bad because of the actions of 2%.

I would be the first to echo the sentiment that ONE is too many, but the fact is there are a LOT more LEOs who are NOT out violating peoples right then there are who do. You are making your judgment on the smallest of fractions.

It is as though I took the view that because two airline pilots were arrested for drinking on the job, that all airline pilots are drunks. It is a logical fallacy to attribute from the specific to the general. The same holds true for LEOs or any other group you choose to define..

I am not saying you should not be cautious, only that you not make negative prejudgements based on small samples. This is in fact the basic flaw in the anti-rights movement thinking. One guys shots someone and 80,000,000 firearms owners are suddenly all bad guys.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

rds801 wrote:

Bigotry isn't the word. Just being cautious and knowing that there are cops out there that use their badge to try to get away with whatever they can. Like I said, I don't know the good guys from the bad guys. Come to think about it, I tend to treat all people like that. I don't disrespect anyone when I meet new people. I just keep in the back of my head that I don't know them...black, white, yellow, whatever.

I tend to be more cautious towards cops. I can't remember the last time I was detained by an ordinary citizen and not allowed to walk/drive away. When police can charge you with anything just because they can, and you have to prove otherwise, even when you did nothing wrong......

Maybe if I stopped watching those YOUTUBE videos of police officers violating peoples rights, I might feel different. When I see cops doing wrong it still shocks me. I guess because we try to hold cops to a higher level. Here is a group of people that are suppose to be working for the citizens (am I wrong?) but MOST don't even follow the laws they are hired to enforce. If I see a regular citizen doing wrong, it doesn't surprise me.

Please don't come back at me with "You can't believe everything you see on the internet". I (family members) have personal experience with cops not doing the right thing.

When I was a little kid my parents use to tell me that if I ever got lost or needed help, find a policeman. Wonder how many parents still tell their kids that.

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The problem with your theorem is the scale. There are at least 5,000,000 LE people in the US according to the DOJ. You have seen relatively very few do these things you speak of. Even if you could document that 100,000 LE peopleengage in criminal activity every year, that is only 2%. How is it fair or even reasonable to say they are all bad because of the actions of 2%.

I would be the first to echo the sentiment that ONE is too many, but the fact is there are a LOT more LEOs who are NOT out violating peoples right then there are who do. You are making your judgment on the smallest of fractions.

It is as though I took the view that because two airline pilots were arrested for drinking on the job, that all airline pilots are drunks. It is a logical fallacy to attribute from the specific to the general. The same holds true for LEOs or any other group you choose to define..

I am not saying you should not be cautious, only that you not make negative prejudgements based on small samples. This is in fact the basic flaw in the anti-rights movement thinking. One guys shots someone and 80,000,000 firearms owners are suddenly all bad guys.

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Agreed!!

Just like 2% of the population will rob, rape, and kill you.

Sure, I can believe that everyone that passes me may want to rape me but how logical is that?

I have friends that have been victims of crime. Does this mean I should distrust all citizens because I know it has happened to people I know?

Not every citizen out there wants to rob me and kill me. Or even assault me or steal my car. Do they exist? Sure. But the percentage is small and the odds are very low.

I believe it is irrational to view all cops as a threat of harm based on knowing that there are so many videos out there proving it can happen.

I can show just as many videos of citizens attacking cops first trying to kill them.

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Maybe I should rethink the way I "lump" all cops together but I am doing it for my own safety being that I can't handcuff them.:lol:

Seriously though, I just don't trust them. One bad apple ruins the whole bunch I guess.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

rds801 wrote:

Bigotry isn't the word. Just being cautious and knowing that there are cops out there that use their badge to try to get away with whatever they can. Like I said, I don't know the good guys from the bad guys. Come to think about it, I tend to treat all people like that. I don't disrespect anyone when I meet new people. I just keep in the back of my head that I don't know them...black, white, yellow, whatever.

I tend to be more cautious towards cops. I can't remember the last time I was detained by an ordinary citizen and not allowed to walk/drive away. When police can charge you with anything just because they can, and you have to prove otherwise, even when you did nothing wrong......

Maybe if I stopped watching those YOUTUBE videos of police officers violating peoples rights, I might feel different. When I see cops doing wrong it still shocks me. I guess because we try to hold cops to a higher level. Here is a group of people that are suppose to be working for the citizens (am I wrong?) but MOST don't even follow the laws they are hired to enforce. If I see a regular citizen doing wrong, it doesn't surprise me.

Please don't come back at me with "You can't believe everything you see on the internet". I (family members) have personal experience with cops not doing the right thing.

When I was a little kid my parents use to tell me that if I ever got lost or needed help, find a policeman. Wonder how many parents still tell their kids that.

Click to expand...

The problem with your theorem is the scale. There are at least 5,000,000 LE people in the US according to the DOJ. You have seen relatively very few do these things you speak of. Even if you could document that 100,000 LE peopleengage in criminal activity every year, that is only 2%. How is it fair or even reasonable to say they are all bad because of the actions of 2%.

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Yawn. most of us are not caught.

And its a win win situation for us heroes, the govt has ruled the bad things, the unconstitutional things, the immoral things we do are ok and legal!

As soon as they make killing someone with a pistol while thinking you had a tazer legal it'll be perfect.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

rds801 wrote:

Bigotry isn't the word. Just being cautious and knowing that there are cops out there that use their badge to try to get away with whatever they can. Like I said, I don't know the good guys from the bad guys. Come to think about it, I tend to treat all people like that. I don't disrespect anyone when I meet new people. I just keep in the back of my head that I don't know them...black, white, yellow, whatever.

I tend to be more cautious towards cops. I can't remember the last time I was detained by an ordinary citizen and not allowed to walk/drive away. When police can charge you with anything just because they can, and you have to prove otherwise, even when you did nothing wrong......

Maybe if I stopped watching those YOUTUBE videos of police officers violating peoples rights, I might feel different. When I see cops doing wrong it still shocks me. I guess because we try to hold cops to a higher level. Here is a group of people that are suppose to be working for the citizens (am I wrong?) but MOST don't even follow the laws they are hired to enforce. If I see a regular citizen doing wrong, it doesn't surprise me.

Please don't come back at me with "You can't believe everything you see on the internet". I (family members) have personal experience with cops not doing the right thing.

When I was a little kid my parents use to tell me that if I ever got lost or needed help, find a policeman. Wonder how many parents still tell their kids that.

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The problem with your theorem is the scale.  There are at least 5,000,000 LE people in the US according to the DOJ.  You have seen relatively very few do these things you speak of.  Even if you could document that 100,000 LE people engage in criminal activity every year, that is only 2%.  How is it fair or even reasonable to say they are all bad because of the actions of 2%.

I would be the first to echo the sentiment that ONE is too many, but the fact is there are a LOT more LEOs who are NOT out violating peoples right then there are who do.  You are making your judgment on the smallest of fractions.

It is as though I took the view that because two airline pilots were arrested for drinking on the job, that all airline pilots are drunks.  It is a logical fallacy to attribute from the specific to the general.  The same holds true for LEOs or any other group you choose to define..

I am not saying you should not be cautious, only that you not make negative prejudgements based on small samples.  This is in fact the basic flaw in the anti-rights movement thinking.  One guys shots someone and 80,000,000 firearms owners are suddenly all bad guys.

Click to expand...

There might be a lot less officers violating peoples rights but I have no idea who those officers are so I will think the worst until I learn otherwise.

If I was stopped by police, I would be treated the same way. They don't know who I am.

Are you saying that I should trust someone just because they are police?