Columnist Says Wisconsin Open Carriers Are Now Fighting Back Against Police Abuse

suntzu · Jan 11, 2009

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So while this article is not specifically concerned with the West Allis case--could anyone explain what the current status of that case is?

Parabellum · Jan 11, 2009

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suntzu wrote:

So while this article is not specifically concerned with the West Allis case--could anyone explain what the current status of that case is?

Vegas won.

Date

Event

Court Official

Court Reporter

1

09-28-2007

Change of address notification

Event Party

Vegas, Andres

Additional Text:

ADDRESS INFO for Andres Vegas
Current: 5110 S Packard Ave, Cudahy, WI 53116 United State (Effective: 09-28-2007)
Prior: Milwaukee, WI United State

2

11-28-2007

Letters/correspondence

Additional Text:

of 11-28-07 from Rebecca M. Coffee, with attachments, filed.

3

11-30-2007

Administrative disposition

Kremers-36, Jeffrey A.

4

12-10-2007

Hearing

Kremers-36, Jeffrey A.

Philbert, LeeAnn

Additional Text:

Court reporter Lee Ann Philbert
Attorney Craig Mastantuno appeared for the petitioner.
Irene Parthum appeared for the City of Milwaukee
Petition granted in part and denied in part.

5

12-11-2007

Notes

Additional Text:

Certification of transcript of proceedings commencing NOVEMBER 30, 2007 - RETURN OF PROPERTY PETITION received and filed. (Pages 9) Copy of transcript forwarded to: ATTY. CRAIG MASTATUONO, 276-8662./CM

6

12-20-2007

Motion

Additional Text:

Defendant's motion for reconsideration.

7

12-21-2007

Notes

Additional Text:

Petition assigned to the Hon. Jeffrey Kremers, Br. 36, for review.

8

01-02-2008

Order

Kremers-36, Jeffrey A.

Additional Text:

Decision and Order Denying Motion for Reconsideration signed and filed. sm

9

01-11-2008

Notes

Additional Text:

Notice of Appeal filed. mc

10

01-14-2008

Notes

Additional Text:

Notice of Appeal Transmittal. Copy of Notice of Appeal and a copy of the docket entries transmitted to the Court of Appeals. mc

11

02-14-2008

Notes

Additional Text:

Original Record forwarded to Court of Appeals 02/14/2008. Last Page No. 12. Appeal No. 2008AP167. tf

12

10-29-2008

Notes

Additional Text:

per court of appeals order dated 10/28/08 on appeal # 2008AP167; this matter is immediately remanded to the circuit court for a hearing consistent with this order, but the court of appeals retains jurisdiction of the appeal; the circuit court shall conduct an evidentiary hearing and enter a decision within 60 days of the date of this order; a transcript of the proceeding shall be prepared & filed within 20 days of the date of the circuit court's decision and the clerk of the circuit court shall return the record to the court of appeals, including the decision entered by the circuit court and the transcript of the hearing within 10 days of the date the transcript is filed in circuit court. mc

13

10-31-2008

Notes

Additional Text:

remittitur received from the Court of Appeals on Appwal # 2008AP167. mc

14

10-31-2008

Notes

Additional Text:

file to Br 27, Judge Martens, for Remand Order dated 10/28/08 to hold an evidentiary hearing. mc

15

11-05-2008

Letters/correspondence

Martens-27, Kevin E.

Off the Record

Additional Text:

received and filed, from attorney Craig Mastantuono dated 10-30-2008 regarding return of property hearing.
/krw

16

11-06-2008

Notes

Martens-27, Kevin E.

Off the Record

Additional Text:

Attorney Mastantuono and ADA Antoni Apollo appeared and court date of 12-16-2008 at 1:30 pm set for hearing as to return of property. Defense counsel to notify the petitioner.
/krw

17

11-07-2008

Judicial transfer

Martens-27, Kevin E.

Garry, Pauline

18

12-16-2008

Hearing

Martens-27, Kevin E.

Garry, Pauline

Additional Text:

Antoni Apollo appears for the City of Milwaukee
Court Reporter Pauline Garry
Petitioner appeared by counsel, attorney Craig Mastantuono
Rebecca Coffee co-chaired with attorney Mastantuono
Attorney Jeremy P. Levinson - additional counsel appeared
Petition granted.
Order signed and filed.

Brigdh · Jan 11, 2009

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Wong case parabellum, I think he was wondering about the "OCing while planting a tree in West Allis" case. Which has been delayed until...what Feb 16th?

Parabellum · Jan 11, 2009

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suntzu wrote:

So while this article is not specifically concerned with the West Allis case--could anyone explain what the current status of that case is?

The bolded setion leads me to think he meant the Vegas case. Or at least NOT the West Allis case.

Brigdh · Jan 11, 2009

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Parabellum wrote:

suntzu wrote:

So while this article is not specifically concerned with the West Allis case--could anyone explain what the current status of that case is?

Click to expand...

The bolded setion leads me to think he meant the Vegas case. Or at least NOT the West Allis case.

well, either way i think we got the bases covered

Nutczak · Jan 12, 2009

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Back to Minocqua for a bit, Since this is the paper that printed that article about open carry being legal and the DNR overstepping their boundaries once again.

And the officer in question, get this. His last name is Trojan!! And that name fits like a glove for this guys personality and intelligence (or lack thereof)

I have spoke to chiefgee this last summer, he almost seems like a reasonable guy from the way he reacted to theheated discussion I had with him about theunorthodox acts of the parking Nazi he hired and then fired shortly after he relaized the crap this kid was pulling.

I might need to wander into town today and speak toChief Geeabout what he directs his department to do if they see someone openly carrying. But we have another problem, Oneida county also has jurisdiction in town too. So if the head cop in Minocqua instructs his force to back off, an Oneida sherriff may act differently.

Maybe I'll just walk into the police department carrying openly and ask to talk to the chief?

A little off topic here, but did any off you get to see the videos a few years ago that had a guy walking into various police departments simply asking for the correct paperwork on how to file a complaint against an officer? he was beaten, arrested and charged with several bullschitt chargesat several different locationsfor simply asking what needs to be done to make a complaint. And the whole wild part of the video's is that there was no complaint being made! he just simply asked how he would go about that procedure.

I often wanted to do that at the Minocqua PD just to see what would happen, I bet itcould go either way lately with the recent changes to the force.

For you guys that are not familar with the northwoods police, they have alot of young guys trying to make a name for themselves to go elsewhere, and a history of corrupt cops that got busted for sex with minors, Child porn, drug offenses and the list goes on.

Remember the young cop that took his Ar-15 into a party of his high school friends and shot 7 of them?it wasn'ttoo far away from here and I almost expected something like that to happen for years from the limited contacts I have had with some.

At least in Oneida county you may get a fair trial, but that will not happen in Vilas as long as Chip (on his shoulder) Nielsen is allowed to be seated at the bench.

Shotgun · Jan 12, 2009

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Nutczak wrote:

Maybe I'll just walk into the police department carrying openly and ask to talk to the chief?

Does the chief run the department from his living room? If not, then I hope you're only being facetious, because taking any firearm into a government-owned building WILL get you into trouble.

Malum Prohibitum · Jan 13, 2009

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Mike wrote:

Parabellum wrote:

Vegas got his gun back last month and the court of appeals had jurisdiction.

Click to expand...

Please explain in detail. What proceeding? Was their an opinion? etc.

Wrong case. That was not the U.S. Court of Appeals.

apjonas · Jan 16, 2009

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In case you missed it, the WI LRB updated its brief on Firearms in Wisconsin. The new version is at http://www.legis.state.wi.us/lrb/pubs/wb/08wb16.pdf. I guess they'll have to revise again after the outstanding cases are decided. Why doesn't somebody who knows the writer call and ask for a case cite?

apjonas · Jan 16, 2009

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Is it possible to set up a blog type feature to track cases of interest. In other words a one-stop shopping place to go to get the background and blow by blow details on (e.g.) the Krause/West Allis case?

Lammie · Jan 17, 2009

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For those interested in pointing out the errors in the report (there are a number of them) you can mail your comments to:

Legislative Reference Bureau, One East Main Street,Suite 200, Madison, WI 53703

Mailing address: P.O. Box 2037, Madison WI 53701-2037, Stephen, R. Miller, Cheif

Doug Huffman · Jan 17, 2009

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Thanks for the updated LRB Brief.

Some case-activists have used Wikis to get their words out.

Blogs/'Blogger' security features are cumbersome enough that I read and regularly comment on two only. Further, there are so many and so many poor ones that the good ones are over whelmed by the chaff.

This forum is the best and most convenient as long and it is read and posted to with discretion - and by discriminating posters.

It is unfortunate that discourse has sunk to the bald bandying of opinion (that is trivially true lest the person be attacked ad hominem) and normative/prescriptive statements (that are not decidably true or false) rather than affirmative/positive statements that are falsifiably 'scientific'. (W. E. Williams/T. Sowell have recently introduced normative, prescriptive, and positive statements and Sir Karl Popper wrote long ago on falsifiability).

bnhcomputing · Jan 17, 2009

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Lammie wrote:

For those interested in pointing out the errors in the report (there are a number of them) you can mail your comments to:

Legislative Reference Bureau, One East Main Street,Suite 200, Madison, WI 53703

Mailing address: P.O. Box 2037, Madison WI 53701-2037, Stephen, R. Miller, Cheif[sic]

I browsed http://www.legis.state.wi.us/lrb/pubs/wb/08wb16.pdfand admit to a certain amount of laziness.

Therefore, I would be interested in your take on the "errors in the report."

Lammie · Jan 17, 2009

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Even though the LRB professes to be non-partisan and unbiased I find that even though the document is titled Firearm laws in Wisconsin it is heavily biased toward Concealed carry giving scant attention to the manner of open carry, even though the governor, Attorney General Office, State prosecutors, and the State Supreme Court have acknowledged that open carry is not unlawful. In fact the article attempts to dissuade open carry by threatening a futile charge of disorderly conduct. It supposes that a simple decision that the act of open carry "is a threat to public peace and safety" is sufficient to warrant a charge of disorderly conduct. The article totally disregards the fact that the Wisconsin Supreme Court defined the meaning, breadth and authority of the dissorderly conduct statute in State v Douglas D.

Transportation of firearms: The article reads "motor vehicle" ss just says "vehicle".

The articleignores that when a firearm is hidden in a carrying case it is concealed and if it is carried on a single passenger vehicle it can not be carried "out of reach" It then conflicts with the conditions of concealement the SSC laid down in the Kieth decision. The article specifically references those conditions.

Statute 941.235which prohibits firearms in places that sell on sale alcoholic beverages only applies to handguns. And then only if the owner of thebusiness forbids it. There is no prohibition of the carry of long guns in such places.

The "school zone" law only applies to public property within 1000 feet of school property. Does not prohibit the carry of unloadedand encased firearms. Applies to only public schools that teach grades 1 through 12.

Hunting is allowed within 1700 feet of a school with the schools permission, a proper license and in season.

These are some of the things I noticed on my first read. I suspect there are others.

Doug Huffman · Jan 17, 2009

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I don't believe that the LRB is our friend or ally.

I believe that they are a formalization of our Brobdingnagian-flapper lawyer class that must interpose their interpretation of the law between the legislature and the people.

With respect, 941.235 is "Carrying firearm in public building." 941.237 is "Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages may be sold and consumed."

Lammie · Jan 17, 2009

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You arecorrect Doug. 941.235 is the prohibition of firearms in gov. buildings. ss941.237 is the restriction of carry in places that serve on sale liquor. I "fat fingered that one". Thanks for being on the ball.

Mike · Jan 17, 2009

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apjonas wrote:

In case you missed it, the WI LRB updated its brief on Firearms in Wisconsin. The new version is at http://www.legis.state.wi.us/lrb/pubs/wb/08wb16.pdf. I guess they'll have to revise again after the outstanding cases are decided. Why doesn't somebody who knows the writer call and ask for a case cite?

Kind of funny that the authors included the text below even though the WI AG has in part defended the ban on concealed carry by arguing that open carry is still permitted in WI.

"While state law does not specifically prohibit openly carrying loaded or unloaded firearms in public, doing so may subject the person to the risk of being arrested and charged with disorderly conduct [s. 947.01] on the grounds that the display threatens public peace and safety '. . . under circumstances in which the conduct tends to cause or provoke a disturbance . . .'."

Lammie · Jan 17, 2009

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If any of you do contact the LRB concerning the article, the author of the article is Dan Ritsche.

FLR&amp;@ · Jan 18, 2009

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First the following is what I would call reliable second hand info from a gun store owner who knew Mr. Vegas and had seen the gun.

I was told that Mr. Vegas hadgot his gun back butin a condition that rendered it unusable. The police had stamped the case # on the slide bending the slide and the barrel.

Go figure?

Lammie- I must agree, the LRB is full of mistakes regarding firearms (and only God knows what else), like the ownership of sound suppressors and machine guns in Wisconsin are the two I found about two months ago. As for the carrying of handguns in a place that sells alcoholic beverages I know me and about 25 others possessed pistols in a Milwaukee tavern one day in December 2005; in short- the owner of the tavern approved, no ammo was present, two lawyers were present (on our side), plus a short visit from the cops, no problems arrests ect. There is no doubt the LRB is very biased!!!!

smithman · Jan 18, 2009

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FLR72 wrote:

First the following is what I would call reliable second hand info from a gun store owner who knew Mr. Vegas and had seen the gun.

I was told that Mr. Vegas hadgot his gun back butin a condition that rendered it unusable. The police had stamped the case # on the slide bending the slide and the barrel.

The anecdotes that I have heard about police returning firearms also support this. They don't store things properly, put everything in a bag which makes scratches, often stamp or deeply etch right in the slide the case number or other information, often in a way which destroys the function or value of the firearms. They can also screw with the internal parts and never get caught. They have ZERO respect for your property. Unfortunately if they return it in a non-functioning condition I would be that there is no legal recourse. Probably they would say "Well there was no documentation on what condition your gun was acquired in." In Vegas' case it was acquired after he had successfully used it in a functioning state, so that may be different. Our founding fathers would scoff at LEO behavior like this.

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