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Thread: Lending firearms

  1. #1
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    A friend of mine got jumped by some cholo early this morning and I was wondering if there is anything one should do when lending guns.
    He was walking home from work at a ag processing plant and some ***** walked up and asked "where you from" -here. "who do you claim" -nothing, and now he's got a @#$%load of stitches and a piece of bone floating around in his eye socket and can't work.

    So my question is if I lend someone a firearm that was purchased through a pawn shop, is there anything that should be signed, turned into local PD, or anything at all that need to be done if I am to let him have one of mine until he gets his own?


    And a second question. If you live in a gang area, and someone makes verbal, gang-related threats, and such threats have lead to assaults in the past (like yesterday) what level of force is legal?

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    There are other people more knowledgeable than I on this subject, so I deleted my post. It proved to be chalk full of errors. Thanks guys for the RCW references!

  3. #3
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    I'm not a lawyer, so this is only my opinion.

    If you know this guy -- no mental health issues, drug use problems, no criminal history issues -- there is nolegal hoop to jump through in this state that I know of. I read a thread elsewhere that cited a BATFE ruling that a temporary loan is not a transfer. Even with a friend, I would have them sign a statement to the effect that they may legally possess a firearm, and that the transaction between the two of you is a temporary loan that may be revoked at any time. This protects you somewhat if you have a falling out with them, or if the gun is confiscated and you try to get it back.

    If I don't know the person, I would try to get an NCIS check. I don't know how this would work -- can aFFL run this for a temporary tranfer? I don't know. There are online background checks that would be better than nothing -- have the friend pay you the cost of the check. At least it would demonstrate you tried to verify they can legally possess a firearm. And I still want the signed statement as explaind above.

    Now . . . I do know a thing or two about gangs:

    First, most gangs won't bother the average citizen unless you are in that 14-24 age range and look like you could either be associated with a gang or a potential recruit. There is of course some violence against those who are uninvolved with gangs, but at least in Washington this is not common.

    Your friend needs to assess why he might be mistaken for a gang associate or member. Wearing gang colors? In Yakima, this will primarily be red and blue, but could also be black or grey. It doesn't take much of the "wrong" color to insult a gang member in their 'hood. Possibly wearing the wrong number? Yakima is home to Sureno 13, Noteno 14, Florencia 13, 18th street, and MS-13. I would avoid any jersey or other piece of clothing with any of these numbers. Bandanas -- almost all colors mean something to gang members -- if youcarry one, don't hang it out of your pocket if you're in that age range.

    The right answer if asked "where you from?" is "I'm from nowhere." This indicates no affiliation with any gang or local set. I have to wonder if when your friend answered if his tone of voice was taked as disrespect for the gang culture (I'm not defending these thugs -- just giving you insight into their mindset.) The saying in the gang culure is that "no insult goes unanswered." So, if you say "I'm from here" and he asks again, and you say something like "I don't do that sh*t" it may be taken a disrespect and invite a confrontation.

    I know this is long, but for all of us there is one more thing -- gang members see "mean mugging" as a challenge. That is, staring at them for too long, especially with an angry look. This invites a fight, so avoid it. I mention this because with many street types, sustained eye contact is a good tactic to communicate you are not intimidated. With gang members, it may get you the exact opposite reaction.

    Charles



  4. #4
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    Brandnew wrote:
    You have to be careful there. The concealed carry class I took basically said that ...
    Brandnew - one of the things we have learned over time is that anything that starts with:

    "My CC instructor said..."

    "A LEO friend said..."

    "The pamphlet/letter that came with my CPL/CCW said..." (My favorite)

    and

    "I read on the internet that..."

    is very suspect and is no more likely to be correct than writing on the restroom wall. The first three in the list above are particularly problematic as we think of all of them as authoritative. But these people are just as likely to fall into accepting urban legends (if you repeat it often enough people will believe it) or even worse, telling us what they wish/want the law to be.

    As are reading this on the internet take it with a grain of salt. Do your own research as to what is right, wrong, legal or illegal. And use the actual laws and cases themselves, not someone's (like BATF's) synopsis or FAQ of the law or cases.

    -adamsesq

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    Brandnew wrote:
    But if you can RUN, then you RUN. You can only draw your weapon and fire when you've exhausted your options and danger is imminent. And if your friend shoots somebody who is yelling gang threats, cops are going to look at it like a gang related shooting first.
    Not the case in WA. There is no "duty to retreat" requirement. While being backed up against a wall may help your case, it isn't a requirement.



    9A.16.020 - Use of force — When Lawful.


    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
    ...
    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;


    RCW 9A.16.050 - Homicide — By other person — When justifiable

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.


  6. #6
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    I realized just after I posted that people would come in and point directly to RCW codes contradicting a couple of things I had said. Thanks for the correction guys, always good to see it in writing.

  7. #7
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    https://www.policeone.com/gangs/arti...here-you-from/

    "Where you from?"
    By Sergeant Tom Burris
    Los Angeles Police Department (29 ½ years), Hollenbeck Patrol Division
    Special contributor to PoliceOne


    As a child growing up, the question, “Where you from?” was the usual conversation starter for me when traveling across the United States my with mom, dad, and younger brother. In the South it sounded more like, “Where y’all from?” Nowadays, that simple question can initiate a lethal assault against the person being asked.
    In the city of Los Angeles, there are 400 known street gangs, with 41,000 documented members. In my patrol division alone we have 37 known street gangs, as well as several other gang cliques and “tagger” crews. Across Los Angeles County, you can easily double that number. Across Southern California, triple it.

    There are chances to cross paths with a gang member(s) in any neighborhood. Gang ‘turf’ violations have gotten rival gang members (and numerous non-gang members) murdered for simply being in the perceived wrong place at the wrong time.

    Victims have been confronted while walking down a public street, and even stopped in traffic while driving. The vast majority of the surviving shooting victims say the same thing, “the suspect(s) walked up (or drove up next to me) and asked “where you from?”” The victim usually answered “nowhere,” and shots were fired. Well, it didn’t matter what the answer was, they still got shot.

    The victims are always male, usually a minority (here in Los Angeles), 15-30 years of age, “buzz” haircut or shaved head, usually wearing a sports team shirt, jersey or hat, and/or generally baggy or lose fitting clothing. That description fits the vast majority of the new officers under my supervision, and literally across the nation. The fashion craze of our current young adult generation coming on the job is a reflection of our country. Just like the “styled” hair, long sideburns, and “porn star” mustaches were when I came on the job…way back when.

    Unfortunately, this fashion craze has also been adopted as uniforms by our criminal gang subculture in Los Angeles and across the nation as well. Unknown uniforms “violating” their “turf,” will always attract unwanted attention of their ranks. Usually, attracting the wrong kind of attention.

    As a tenured patrol sergeant, I see that my new officers look younger and younger with each Academy graduating class. Most seem to have been born when I had 5-10 years on the job. Nonetheless, they are my new officers now. I have the duty to do my utmost to ensure they are ready to handle a variety of threats.
    A few months ago I addressed my observations and concerns in front of my officers during our morning roll call. After discussing many of the shootings the officers themselves had recently investigated, the same scenario was repeated each time. We all agreed: Being asked “where you from?” is a definite warning sign.
    It’s safe to say any gang member or group of gang members who confront you with that question are enforcing their gang’s authority over their “hood,” and are more than likely armed to carry out their enforcement.
    A week or so after my talk in roll call the below press release was made by my Department:
    News Release
    Tuesday, June 10, 2008
    Off-Duty Officer Shoots Suspect after Attack
    Los Angeles: An off-duty officer shot and wounded a man after he and a friend were attacked by five gang members on June 8, 2008, in Compton.
    The attack happened just before 9:45 p.m. in the 1700 block of Culver Avenue, when five gang members approached Officer Vicente Lopez and his friend walking to a carnival at The Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ Catholic Church. The suspects asked Lopez what gang he was from, and he told them he was not a gang member (emphasis added by author). The suspects aggressively began harassing and threatening the officer and his companion.

    To avoid any further confrontation, Lopez lifted up his shirt and exposed his badge and gun and identified himself as a police officer. The gang charged Lopez and his friend and a fight erupted. During the fight, one of the suspects, attempted to wrest the officer’s handgun. He was able to gain control of his weapon, fire a round and hit the suspect. After being struck, the suspect ran from the scene.

    Lopez detained a second suspect and waited for the arrival of the Los Angeles County Sheriffs to take him into custody. During a follow-up, investigators received reports of a victim being treated for a gunshot wound to his torso at Saint Francis Hospital. The victim turned out to be the suspect the officer shot. He has been identified as 21-year-old Pablo Arroyo, who was subsequently arrested and charged with an assault with a deadly weapon on a police officer.

    Lopez suffered a cut to the top of his head and a fracture on his face. He was taken to a local hospital where he was treated and released. He is assigned to the Pacific Division and has been with the Department for one year and 11 months.

    Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department will handle the criminal investigation and the Los Angeles Police Department Force Investigation will investigate the officer involved shooting.
    Synopsis: young officer, off-duty, confronted by gang members, asked “where you from?,” resulting in shooting.

    This by no means is the only example of past shootings with this same scenario. Other off-duty officers have been similarly confronted by gang members when they were alone or with family members, parents and their own children.

    Incidents of this kind have occurred both on and off-duty. We have had several incidents involving on-duty, plainclothes, vice and narcotics operators. While conducting enforcement/surveillance operations they are suddenly confronted by gang members with the opening line of, “where you from?” The confrontations usually ended in an officer-involved-shooting (OIS) with the first shots fired by the gang members.

    Basically, my rule is, the phrase, “Where you from?” is your signal to get your gun in your hand and be prepared to defend yourself (and maybe others) from one or more armed suspects. But, you can only defend yourself, and any family members or friends, if you have your gun with you.

    A few years ago, I overheard an officer say “I don’t carry my gun off-duty unless I’m coming into the city.” While keeping my composure, I asked him for his reasoning. He felt safe while in his city of residence. But, the officer was concerned with his safety only when he was crossing back within our city limits. I don’t know if my follow-up discussion with him changed his mind or not.

    I find that a handful of personnel believe in the philosophy that being armed off-duty can only get you in trouble. In reality, reckless behavior gets a person in trouble. If you don’t do stupid things in stupid places you won’t get yourself in trouble.
    The personal consequences are tremendous if you go unarmed off-duty. I tell officers to give themselves a fighting chance because the shooter will not give them any chance.

    My Department, and others across the nation, have stories of officers, off-duty and unarmed, being confronted by armed suspects. The resulting assault have left them and anyone with them, robbed, kidnapped, raped, stabbed, and/or shot. Sadly some have been murdered. Now add being confronted by armed gang members because of your appearance and fashion choice.

    But, I’m sure the un-armed, off-duty officer will feel safe right up until he’s asked, “Where you from?”

  8. #8
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    cynicist wrote:
    So my question is if I lend someone a firearm that was purchased through a pawn shop, is there anything that should be signed, turned into local PD, or anything at all that need to be done if I am to let him have one of mine until he gets his own?
    You can hand him the gun. Its legal to transfer a gun person to person (Not from a dealer unless its his personalguns)without paperwork. If you are lending, you should just be able to hand him the gun, but if you were giving him a gun permanently, you should probably do the transfer through a dealer so it keeps you safe from liability. Also, the stipilation is that you should not transfer to a unscrupulous character. If he commits a crime and they find out you knew about his misdeeds or intentions, you can be tried also.

    I had an SKS transfered to me this way from a family member. I checked out the laws so I could be sure the transfer was legal.

    Washington Revised Code RCW 9.41.080: Delivery to ineligible persons.

    No person may deliver a firearm to any person whom he or she has reasonable cause to believe is ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a firearm. Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony, punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.


    [1994 sp.s. c 7 § 409; 1935 c 172 § 8; RRS § 2516-8.]



    "Is it legal to sell my firearm to another person without the assistance of an FFL Dealer?
    Yes it is legal to sell your firearm to another person withou the assistance of an FFL Dealer. The law allows this between residents of Washington only. You must be very cautious if you sell a firearm this way. It is unl awful to sell a firearm if you have reason to believe that the person buying it is ineligible to possess a firearm under state or federal law. " -http://www.nwcdl.org/faq.html

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