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Thread: Detained/Harassed by Las Vegas MPD on The Strip during my New Year's trip

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    The following details my detention and the seizure of some of my property by officers from the Las Vegas Metro Police Department (LVMPD) during my New Year's vacation with some friends in Las Vegas, NV. I was detained for wearing an EMPTY holster. I apologize for the long length of the post, but I tried to convey as much detail as possible to give everyone a clear picture of what happened.

    My clothing/attire consisted of the following:
    HAT - black baseball cap with the Greek phrase "Molon Labe" in red lettering
    (http://lifelibertyetc.com/product.aspx?pid=21)
    SHIRT - black T-shirt with the quote "The More Corrupt the State / The More Numerous the Laws ~ Tacitus" in white lettering
    (http://www.boffensive.com/store2/cart/product.php?productid=15&cat=1&page=1)
    SHOES - blue/black thong sandals
    GUN BELT - black Liger belt with black buckle
    (http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=16&idproduct=276)
    HOLSTER - Blackhawk! Level 3 SERPA Duty Holster screwed onto the belt
    (http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Level-3-SERPA-Auto-Lock-Duty-Holster,1175,1412.htm)
    SHORTS - six-pocket green cargo shorts carrying the following items:
    - R thigh-pocket: cell phone; iPod; lighter; Cuffmate lighted handcuff key
    - L thigh-pocket: C2 Taser w/ red laser sight; Fox Labs 4 oz. "Mean Green" pepper spray; small composite notebook; black ball-point pen
    - R back-pocket: ASP hinged handcuffs
    - L back-pocket: Ka-Bar TDI Model 1480 Law Enforcement Knife
    - R side-pocket: nothing
    - L side-pocket: wallet w/ AZ DL & CWP, etc.; car keys; house keys attached to a 5-inch black Kubotan with tapered, blunt end (made from molded plastic)

    The whole incident was recorded on an Olympus WS-331M digital voice recorder that was hanging around my neck underneath my T-shirt. The following is the transcript of the audio recording (it might not be 100% exact, but I've done the best job I could). Please note that some parts might be left out because they contain private information or it was too difficult to make out the audio. My editorial comments are in brackets. I am not releasing any of the names of the officers involved in this incident. I will work on editing the recording so I can post it to the forum.

    Here's a key to the main parties involved:
    LC = female officer #1
    LC2 = unknown female officer #2
    UC = unknown male officer #1
    UC2 = unknown male officer #2
    SJ = sergeant and lead officer in charge
    OSG = O'Shea's security guard #1
    OSG2 = O'Shea's security guard #2

    [I'm playing craps inside of O'Shea's Casino on the Las Vegas Strip on Sun. morning, 01/04/2009. I've been in the casino for the last nine hours. At ~3:30 AM, I'm approached at the end of the craps table by two female LVMPD officers with two other male officers nearby.]

    LC: Can I talk to you for a second?
    Me: Yes?
    LC: Do- do you have a weapon with you?
    Me: No.
    LC: You don't?
    Me: No. It's an empty holster.
    LC: Ok.
    Me: I just wear it for a political statement.
    LC: Ok.
    Me: Same as my shirt and my hat.
    LC: Ok. Do you mind, do you mind if I pat you down? I just want to make sure that there's no gun and everyone's safe here and there's no weapon.
    Me: Yes, I do mind. I, I- You have no reasonable suspicion to search me. It's an empty holster.
    LC: Ok.
    Me: I just wore it, you know, as part of my attire.
    LC: Ok, so you mind if we pat you down, is that what you're saying? Well, you know what, we need to talk to you for a second. We have the right to find out who you are, ok?
    Me: I don't consent to any searches.
    LC: I understand, but I'm telling you, we as the police, have the right to find out who you are, so I need you to come with me for a second.
    [The LC starts to tug at the side of my shirt and motion me away from the craps table. It is apparent that they are about to detain me.]
    Me: All right.
    LC: And I need you to keep your hands away from, anything, 'cause if there's anything in your pockets, then we don't want to go ahead and take action. Let's go. Please follow us.
    Me: All right.

    [I tell the craps dealer to take down all of my odds and they place a towel over my chips at the table to save my spot. I move away from the table and it is at this point that I am handcuffed in front of all the other patrons inside the casino.]

    LC: Please step with us over here. Ok, keep your hands where we can see them.
    UC: Step over here. Come here, come here. Put your hands behind your back.
    [The handcuffs are placed on my wrists.]
    UC: Do you have a gun on you?
    Me: No.
    UC: Is there anything illegal on you?
    Me: No. I don't consent to any searches.
    UC: Ok, I heard ya.
    LC: You didn't give us consent to search; however, we do have the right to- to pat down, ok. I just want to let you know that.
    Me: I don't consent to any searches.
    LC: We have reasonable suspicion to believe that you have a weapon. The reason is - you have an empty holster. Do you understand what I'm saying?
    Me: Except the holster is empty.
    LC: I understand that.
    Me: It's empty. And it's empty for a reason, because I do not have a weapon.
    LC: Oh, ok. So, we have the right, like I said, as police officers, to know who you are. So we have sixty minutes to do so, ok? So, you're gonna come with us and we're going to find out who you are, ok?. That's all.
    Me: I'm from out of town.
    UC: Well, in Vegas, we don't carry holsters, ok. That's not how we do it out here.
    Me: Open carry is legal here.
    UC: Let's go. Let's go.
    Me: Ok.
    LC: Thank you.
    SJ: (To LC) Did- did he have one?

    [I am now led outside of the casino property onto the sidewalk on Las Vegas Blvd. There had already been two police cruisers parked outside, as well as several other officers on patrol in the area for several hours. By the way, it is REALLY cold outside (in the mid-30s) and I'm standing there in just shorts and a T-shirt (I never expected to be outside for so long).]

    UC: Can you stand in front of my car for me, sir?
    Me: Right here?
    UC: Yep, right there.
    Me: Facing the car?
    UC: Right here. Right in front of those big bumpers.
    Me: In front of the bumper?
    UC: Yes, sir.
    [At this point, the UC frisks me. He begins to place his hands inside each of my pockets and removes my possessions. They are placed one-by-one on top of the hood of the patrol car. No "probable cause" for the search is stated to me.]
    LC: Do you have an ID, sir?
    Me: Yes I do.
    LC: Wonderful. And where is that located?
    Me: It's in my wallet, in my front, left pocket.
    LC: In the front, left pocket.
    Me: In the little, uh-
    LC: Ok. And, what is your social security number, sir?
    Me: (I state my correct SSN).
    LC: And you are from Arizona?
    Me: From Tempe, Arizona.
    LC: Ok.
    Me: My name is (I state my full name).
    LC: Ok, great.
    UC2: Where's the gun at, Mike?
    LC2: So, what's the statement that you're trying to make?
    Me: I am a supporter of the Second Amendment.
    LC2: Ok.
    Me: As well as the amendment in Arizona, as well as here in Nevada, which allows everyone to carry weapons.
    LC2: Ok.
    Me: And here, you are allowed to carry, openly or concealed with a permit.
    LC2: Right.
    Me: I have an Arizona Concealed Weapons Permit (CWP).
    LC2: Ok.
    Me: That's not recognized by the state of Nevada. However, I am allowed to openly carry here in Nevada.
    LC2: Right.
    Me: I do not have a firearm on me right now.
    LC2: Ok. Well, well- what security's concern was, was that you have the open holster, so they were just wondering where the firearm was.
    Me: I do not have a firearm on me.
    LC2: Ok, that's fine. That's- we're trying to get that figured out, ok. All you gotta do is co-operate and you'll be on your way.
    Me: I don't appreciate being harassed for having an open holster- with nothing in it.
    LC2: You're not being harassed.
    Me: I, would tend to differ.

    [The lead officer in charge, SJ, now comes over to the patrol car and examines my possesions on the hood. He speaks to me from the sidewalk.]
    SJ: (In the background to other officers - states something about "some weird ****" and "stab[bing] someone in an alley" or "getting stabbed up in an alley").
    SJ: (To officers) What's his name? Michael?
    UC2: You carry all that **** with you? A Taser?
    Me: Yeah.
    SJ: Mike, why you got a holster on and no gun?
    Me: I've already explained.
    SJ: Ok, explain it again.
    Me: Ok, in Nevada, you're allowed-
    SJ: I know the law. I'm asking you why you have a holster with no gun.
    Me: It's a political statement. It's freedom of expression.
    SJ: It is-
    Me: The First Amendment-
    SJ: -it also draws a lot of attention to you. Unneccessary attention.
    Me: So? That's the whole point. That's why it's expression. If no one had noticed it, then there would be no point in making the statement.
    SJ: Well, this- this is the statement you're gonna make. When you walk around with a holster on Las Vegas Blvd.-
    Me: Ok.
    SJ: -and you run into one of my gangsters, he'll put a bullet in you 'cause he'll think you have a gun under there.
    Me: I appreciate your concern, but I'm more concerned with the political statement for the reasonable, law-abiding citizens.
    SJ: That's, that's fine, but everytime you're walking down the street- You also have the right to walk down the street with a gun in the holster wide open.
    Me: Yes?
    SJ: Everytime you do that, this is how you end up. You're gonna be dealin' with us everytime.
    Me: So, you're saying I'm going to be harassed by the police-
    SJ: You're gonna be stopped everytime.
    Me: I'm gonna be harassed by the police for-
    SJ: Call it what you want.
    Me: -lawful, lawful conduct.
    SJ: You're gonna be stopped everytime.
    Me: Lawful conduct.
    SJ: Lawful or not, you're gonna be stopped everytime.
    Me: So, you're telling me, uh, if I were wearing a political shirt, you know-
    SJ: You're not wearing a political shirt.
    Me: -that had an expression that you don't like, I'm gonna be stopped-
    SJ: You're not, you're not wearing a political shirt. You're wearing a gun.
    Me: Are you kidding me?! Look, look at my shirt.
    SJ: I didn't see your shirt.
    Me: Look at my shirt.
    SJ: I could care less about your shirt. I'm worried about the holster you got on your waist.
    Me: Ok, well sir, I'm not going to argue with you.
    SJ: A shirt has never put a bullet in my head. A shirt has never hurt me.
    Me: I appreciate your concern, but I'm more concerned with my freedom of speech, so I'm not- I'm not gonna argue with you anymore.
    SJ: We're not arguing. You've got your freedom of speech.
    Me: Ok.
    SJ: I'm just letting you know, if you come down here on the Blvd. with a gun or a holster and it's out and we can see it, we're gonna stop you. That's it. That's what we do.
    Me: Um-hmm.
    SJ: And it's not about being harassed, it's about making sure that you're not gonna walk into a casino and start blasting.
    Me: Well, I would really appreciate it if all the officers here could give me their business card-
    SJ: You'll get my name, that's it.
    Me: So- So, I'll get your name, that's it? That's it?
    SJ: That's it.
    Me: Oh. Thank you very much.
    SJ: I'll give you my name and my badge number-
    Me: Thank you, thank you. I appreciate that.
    SJ: Got it? You can complain all you want. I'm telling you right now, if you come down here on the strip- (SJ now holds up the kubotan with my keys attached) These things, like this, is that yours?
    Me: I'm not talking anymore.
    [SJ begins to talk in a very snide, condescending tone.]
    SJ: You know the law, right?
    Me: I'm not talking.
    SJ: Maybe I should make a point and take you to jail for possession of a dangerous weapon. Just to prove a point, Mike. 'Cause you know the law, right? You know the law? I'm waitin'...
    Me: I'm not making any more statements.
    SJ: But, you say you know the law though?
    Me: I'm exercising my Fifth Amendment right to not make any more statements.
    SJ: Maybe I should take you to jail for possession of a dangerous weapon. What does it say about that, Mike? (Pauses to wait for my answer.) I'm- you got all the answers. (Pause.) Tell me about that corrupt law right there. What does it say about that thing right there, that dagger you got? You don't know. (SJ turns to the other officers) I don't know. What do you think? Maybe we should take Mike to jail... The guy knows the law, maybe I should take him to jail.
    [Throughout the incident, my kubotan is consistently referred to as a "dagger" by SJ and the other officers. According to all the legal definitions I've seen, a dagger is typically a short, double-sided blade attached to a handle with the primary use of stabbing someone (as opposed to in a slicing motion). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger. My kubotan is made out of plastic, has no sharp edges, and is designed as a defensive weapon to jab at one's attacker. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubaton. I don't think that's the same as a "dagger" as cited in NRS 202.350(1)(d)(2) (although, the term "dagger" itself is not defined within the NRS). I suppose they could have tried to charge me with the catch-all "...or other dangerous or deadly weapon" as in NRS 202.350(1)(d)(3), but I think that would be a stretch.]

    [At this point, UC begins the procedure to uncuff me and informs me I can now place my hands down at my sides. I have been detained in handcuffs for approximately eight minutes.]
    Me: Are you sure?
    UC: You can put your hands down there now. Ok, well here's the deal, Mike. Where are you staying at?
    Me: I’m not making any more statements.
    UC: Ok. Um, I'm pretty sure they're not gonna want you back in O'Shea's, just so you know. I don't know if they're gonna trespass you or not, but that's probably what's gonna happen.
    Me: I'd like to talk to the manager if that's possible.
    UC: Well, I'll see what they say, but I'm just telling you, they're probably not gonna let you just walk back in there. I'll ask them though, ok? Would you like me to? Yes or no?
    Me: If you can get the manager, I can speak to him, or her.
    UC: I'm gonna ask security if they want you back in there or not.
    Me: Yes. Yes, please tell them, please tell them-
    UC: No, I'm just gonna ask them-
    Me: Ok.
    [In the background, SJ informs LC that she should impound my kubotan as evidence and he calls me a "smart ass." SJ asks if I have any money in the casino and LC informs him that I still have chips at the craps table. An O'Shea's security guard comes over to talk to me.]

    OSG: Hey Michael.
    Me: Yes.
    OSG: We have your money at the cage right there, but I'm gonna have to trespass you, ok?
    Me: You're- Are you?-
    OSG: You're gonna be trespassing on the property, yes.
    Me: May I ask you why?
    OSG: Yeah, the weapons are very inappropriate. We don't, uh-
    Me: Can I ask you which one you find-
    OSG: Pardon me?
    Me: May I ask you which one you find inappropriate?
    OSG: Uh, the management finds inappropriate the dagger and the firearm-
    Me: The imaginary firearm, sir?
    OSG: Listen, let me say something. You can take it up with management. I really don't care. I'm trespassing you. Whether you like it or not, you're being trespassed, ok?
    Me: I don't-
    OSG: You're gonna go get your money and then you're gonna leave.
    Me: Ok, I, I- I don't mean to argue with you-
    OSG: I'm not gonna argue with you. So, I'm gonna trespass you and then you're gonna be on your way, ok? I don't have time for that, ok? So, you opened yourself up for that, so we're not gonna discuss that, ok?
    Me: I'm sorry if I offended you in some way.
    OSG: Listen, listen. I need you to listen.
    Me: I’m listening.
    OSG: [Reading from a card.] As a duly appointed representative of the property of the owner, I am hereby trespassing you. If you return to this property, you'll be subject to arrest, subject to a misdemeanor. Do you understand?
    Me: Yes, I do.
    OSG: I'm gonna take you back inside and get you your chips and you're money-
    Me: Yes.
    OSG: -when Metro's done with you-
    Me: Ok.
    OSG: -then you have the right to leave. You'll be trespassing at O'Shea's, Flamingo, Imperial Palace.
    Me: Ok.
    OSG: Ok, anything ran by Harrah's, you can't come back. Any Harrah's property.
    Me: Any Harrah's property.
    OSG: Do you understand what I've told you?
    Me: Yes, I do.
    OSG: I appreciate that sir, thank you. You can grab your wallet- (Turns to LC.) I don't know, are you done with him?
    LC: Uh, yeah, we're not done with him yet.
    SJ: He's got to deal with us.
    OSG: Do you want me to go take him back in to get his money?
    SJ: Oh yeah. You know what? Does he have to go get the money?
    OSG: I can't touch it.
    SJ: Ok.
    OSG: He's got to go in and get his own money.
    SJ: Ok, let's uh, let's walk him in and get his money so he can get that done and bring him back out here.
    LC: All right, sir. What we're gonna do is we're gonna go walk in there, we're gonna leave your property here, we're gonna get your money and come back out here, ok?
    Me: Ok.
    LC: Let’s go ahead and do that.
    Me: I am allowed to go in and retrieve my money?
    LC: Yeah, that's what we're gonna do right now.
    Me: Thank you.

    [I'm escorted back into O'Shea's by OSG and LC, along with a few other officers.]
    LC: The money's over here, correct? Ok, let's go over there and get it. Where's the money?
    OSG: The money's been taken to the cage. The pit person cashed it out and it's all been taken to the cage.
    LC: So, the money's this way?
    OSG: Yes.
    LC: Ok, let's follow him.
    [We make it over to the cashier cage where an elderly woman (CW) is working behind the counter.]
    CW: He's the player?
    OSG: This is the player. Yes, ma'am.
    CW: Ok. You are?
    Me: Excuse me?
    CW: What's your name?
    Me: Michael.
    CW: Where's your ID, Michael?
    Me: My ID is currently outside.
    CW: This is him, right?
    OSG: Yeah, that's him.
    CW: Ok, I need you to verify me returning this-
    OSG: Ok.
    CW: -because the pit girl came and signed it. The amount comes to 366.
    Me: Yes.
    CW: Ok, did you want to cash it in, Michael or did you want chips-
    OSG: He's cashing out. He has to cash them out. He's not allowed back on the property.
    [The CW counts out the money and places it in front of me. I initial a sheet of paper with the info. on it.]
    Me: Thank you very much.
    CW: Thank you. Have a great day.
    Me: Thank you. You, too.

    [At this point, something truly bizarre happens (and probably very fortunate in my favor). O'Shea's security gets a report about a man with a gun in the bathroom of the casino. Apparently, a man in his 20s carrying a concealed firearm either tripped and fell or the gun simply slipped out of his pants. In any case, about eight LVMPD officers run to the bathroom to assess the situation.]
    OSG: I've- I've got a report of somebody- a confirmed report of somebody with a gun in the bathroom. (To LC) They're confirming a gun in the bathroom.
    LC: Watch him.
    Me: I'm standing right here. I'll stand right here.
    OSG: I appreciate that. Dispatch, everyone's going. Just do me a favor for a minute. Just turn your back towards the cage, no, no, no turn your back this way and remove your cap for me. My camera wants to take a picture of you. Hold on. [I take off my hat and look up at the ceiling camera.] Cam one, did you get a picture of my man here at the cage? I'll walk you out.
    Me: Um, should I stay here for them?
    OSG: No. They're out there anyway, so I'm gonna walk you out. Is that cool?
    Me: Yeah, I don't know if they want-
    OSG: They've still got your stuff out there, so I'm gonna take you out to them.
    Me: All right. I don't know if they want me to put this [the money] in my pocket, so I'm just gonna hold this.
    OSG: Oh, that's yours. You can put it in your pocket. That's fine.
    Me: I don't know what they want me to do.
    OSG: Well, I'm gonna take you back out to them. We're done as far as us.
    Me: All right. I know you're just doing your job, but honestly, I've been here for the last ten hours playing peacefully with no problem. I've barely said a word to anyone.
    [OSG escorts me back outside.]
    Me: Thank you.
    OSG: We're just gonna hang here for a minute. We can hang here in the doorway. Why don't you hang back here? It's a little bit warmer.
    Me: It's ok. I'm all right.
    OSG: Well, you gotta understand. Somebody, somebody- that made somebody uncomfortable, you know what I'm saying?
    Me: It was a particular-?
    OSG: I can't tell you who or what it was.
    Me: I understand.
    OSG: Ok, maybe- maybe a lot of people didn't pay no mind to it, or maybe the average person walked by and didn't think nothing about an empty holster-
    Me: It's just-
    OSG: -you know what I mean.
    Me: It's unfortunate that one complaint from someone who has an irrational fear negates my Amendment- First Amendment right for freedom of expression to support Second Amendment rights by wearing an empty holster. And yet, they're allowed to continue playing when I did nothing wrong.
    OSG: No, but you, uh- Well, you know.
    Me: I don't know what else to tell ya. You know, it's- people are afraid of everything and it's unfortunate that my lawful conduct made someone fear, that they kicked me out.
    OSG: Well, ya know-
    Me: I know you’re just-
    OSG: I just have to address management's positions-
    Me: I know you're just-
    OSG: -and I don't really have a choice-
    Me: I know you're just doing your job, but-
    OSG: I would have- I could have personally said that I think it's all right, ya know what I mean? I don't have a personal issue with it. I can't really make personal decisions.
    Me: I understand.
    OSG: You know what I'm saying? Opinions are only allowed so much. You understand what I'm saying? And, you know, I support the- I support the freedom of speech, freedom of having a weapon, especially if you're smart enough to use one and defend yourself. I totally agree, because- I would rather have one than have the other guy have one, you know what I'm saying?
    Me: Uh, can I ask you one question?
    OSG: Yes, sir.
    Me: Uh- Now you've warned me that returning to any of the Harrah's Corporation properties-
    OSG: Well, actually-
    Me: -will be trespassing?
    OSG: At this point- At this point, you're just trespassing with O'Shea's and Flamingo.
    Me: Ok.
    OSG: If you- If you get stopped at another property and they run your name- and depending on what you- if you're trespassing there- you'd just be trespassing on that property.
    Me: Right.
    OSG: So you can actually go to Caesar's, Harrah's, and Imperial and all that stuff. If they run your name because you've done something else- you see what I'm saying? Security actually runs your name.
    Me: This is the first-
    OSG: So, you'll be fine.
    Me: This is the first run-in I've ever had with management of a corporation, hotel, casino chain, or any police interaction [besides a speeding ticket]. (Long pause.) Do you know if my friend Jon is inside? He was out here when the police were here. He had a blue and black scarf on.
    OSG: Yeah, I know who you're talking about. I'm gonna go see- Let me take you back to this guy right here.
    Me: Ok.
    SJ: (In the background) Hey, are we done with Mike? Hey, T.J., go back with ?? real quick.
    [It's at this point that the man with the gun in the O'Shea's bathroom is brought outside in handcuffs. Two of his friends (black, mid-20s) follow him out and begin to approach the police and become belligerent. Even after being warned to back off, they continue to approach the officers and yell profanities in their faces. Bad move. Both of the guy's friends are taken down to the ground and placed in cuffs and searched while LC stands over one of them with her Taser drawn. My friend Jon and I just step back and watch all the action go down. Now, all three men are being detained by the police in a much more serious situation than my own. One of them continues to yell profanities and makes claims of police brutality and racial mistreatment by SJ (who himself was black).]
    SJ: Put him in the car! Bring me another car. Put him in the back of the car.
    [More shouting from the two friends.]
    LC: Relax!

    [Another O'Shea's security guard brings some of my belongings over to me.]
    OSG: Hang on just a second. Hang on just a second.
    Me: These are all of my materials?
    OSG2: That's all your materials right there. This is your's, too, right?
    Me: Yes.
    OSG2: Just take them and leave, bro. Ya know. (laughs)
    Me: I- I just want to double check that I have all of my property back.
    OSG2: Oh, you've got your money, too?
    Me: I have- Yeah, my money, my wallet- Um-
    OSG2: You've got your hand keys for your handcuffs?
    Me: I have the return of my ID? It doesn't look like I have my driver's license.
    Jon: It looks like it's still up on the hood.
    [More commotion from the three young men. SJ informs the most belligerent suspect that he's going to jail.]
    OSG2: You wanna go out there and get your ID?
    Me: Excuse me?
    OSG2: You wanna go out there and get your ID?
    Me: Uh, if you could bring it to me, that would be appreciated.
    [I check to make sure I have all of my stuff back.]
    Me: And my house keys? That were attached to the kubotan, the black kubotan-
    OSG2: Hold on- hold on- I believe they're gonna be impounding it and you can retrieve it from Metro.
    Me: Do you mind if I ask why they're impounding it?
    OSG2: That's up to them. That's not- That's not on us.
    UC: Stay right there. The other girl has it. She went to go get her car.
    Me: Ok.
    Jon: There she is.
    Me: Ok.
    LC: (In background to UC) Um, the dagger is, uh, I think we're going to impound that-
    Me: How are you doing, Jon? (laughs)
    Jon: Oh, not too bad. I don't know, you tell me. How are you doing? I talked to Jason. He's uh, heading back to the hotel and grabbing a cab. He's gonna meet us there. So-
    Me: Ok. I'm very cold.
    Jon: Do you need a jacket?
    Me: No, I'm ok.
    Jon: You sure?
    Me: Yeah.
    Jon: So, I didn't realize that you still have the car.
    Me: I do indeed still have the car. He got a free taxi. I'm cold. It's really cold.
    LC: Sir, the keys were left with your items there.
    Me: Excuse me?
    LC: The keys were left with your items there.
    Me: Oh, ok. They've been seperated.
    LC: Yeah.
    Me: And, do you mind-
    LC: (Holds up the kubotan in an evidence bag) This is going to be impounded as evidence.
    Me: Evidence in what?
    LC: As a dangerous weapon.
    Me: Ok. Um, am I receiving a report or citation of any kind?
    LC: Not at this time, but you can go ahead and get the event number with the sergeant's information and you can go ahead and call that in.
    Me: Am I being charged with any crime?
    LC: You are not being charged with any crime, no. That's right.
    Me: Ok, but you're seizing my property.
    LC: As evidence, that's correct.
    Me: As evidence against no crime?
    LC: No. What we do is we impound that evidence and uh, we do it for safekeeping, and we can use it as a potential charge because we can charge you with possession of a dangerous weapon. So, possession of a dangerous weapon could be the crime against you, however you're being released. Now, if you're caught again, and this is, you know, affiliated with your information, we can go ahead and arrest you for that, ok?
    Me: Now-
    LC: If we find any other dangerous weapons, because that's just establishing precedent for you carrying dangerous weapons. That's it.
    Me: And you're telling me that- that a piece of plastic qualifies as a dangerous weapon?
    LC: The dagger thing?
    Me: It's not a dagger, it's a kubotan. It's- it's a kubotan. It is sold-
    LC: Well, you'd have to talk to the sergeant about that.
    Me: It's sold to women as a self-defense item.
    LC: Ok, well, you'll have to talk to the sergeant.
    Me: Do you mind if I receive some sort of receipt for my property?
    LC: Actually, we're gonna go ahead and not do that right now, but we will-
    Me: You're not gonna do that? You're seizing my property against no crime-
    LC: We're seizing the property. We're seizing the property. There is a crime. It will be possession of a dangerous weapon. Would you like to go to jail for that?
    Me: No, I would not.
    LC: Our sergeant is releasing you for this.
    Me: Ok. All- all I'm asking for is a receipt.
    LC: Not at this time, but you can get it through the event number. You will be able to obtain that.
    Me: Ok.
    Jon: The way the sergeant explained it to me is that he's letting you skate on any potential gross misdemeanor and-
    Me: I have- I, however, have-
    OSG: They didn't say that you couldn't retrieve it. They just said that you have to-
    Me: As long as I can get someone's information. I now have no names of any of the officers involved, nor do I have any sort of citation or case report.
    Jon: He has the badge number.
    OSG: Actually, uh- Here, write this down.
    Me: Can you hold this Jon for a second?
    OSG: I'm gonna get you the event number, ok. I haven't gotten the event number yet. The sergeant there, his pin number is ****, ok.
    Me: Sergeant number ****. No name though?
    OSG: His last name is ********.
    Me: Ok.
    OSG: And I'll go get an event number for you, ok?
    Me: Sure. Thank you.

    Jon: Mike, I love ya, I know you're an attorney, but at the same time, just let it go. [Jon then does his best to convince me to just walk away from the scene ASAP before the police change their mind and charge me (rightly or wrongly) with a crime.]
    OSG: Ok, Michael. The event number is **********. Yeah, you give that information to-
    Me: So, I contact the Las Vegas Metro Police-
    OSG: Yes, sir.
    Me: -and I can receive a copy of any sort of incident report, or?
    OSG: Yeah. I don't know- Like I said, I don't think they're doing anything, besides- I think they'll be an event. I think they put some kind of information in their computer with this, you understand what I'm saying?
    Me: Ok.
    OSG: But they didn't, like he said, they didn't process you for nothing. So, uh-
    Me: Ok.
    Jon: Do you have all your keys, though?
    Me: Let me double check. [I look through all of my stuff.]
    Jon: Let's walk.
    Me: I believe I have everything. My ID, credit cards.
    Jon: You did well, my man. You did good. You stood up for yourself.
    Me: All right. I currently have all of my property, except for the kubotan.
    Jon: And are we up? Are we up on the craps?
    Me: A little bit.
    Jon: Sir, thank you very much.
    OSG: You know what? Like- like I said, from O'Shea's and Flamingo, you could probably go anywhere else-
    Jon: In the Harrah's family?
    OSG: Yeah, and like I said, unless you do anything criminal- I really wouldn't advise continuing to carry the holster-
    Me: Correct.
    OSG: -cause you'll get approached again and they'll ask you for your ID and if they run your name they're gonna retrespass you from-
    Me: Is there a statute of limitations or is it just perpetual?
    OSG: Usually about a year.
    Me: A year?
    OSG: Trespass is about a year. Usually that's what we run. Like I say, if something rehappens again, we redo the trespass. You could come back let's say in a couple of weeks again and we'll just retrespass you again. You see what I'm saying?
    Me: Ok.
    OSG: So, it does- it does allow us to arrest you for it.
    Me: Ok. And, can I just get your name again? I don't know if I-
    OSG: I, uh- I don't think-
    Me: Just your first name.
    OSG: *******.
    Me: Ok, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
    Jon: Take care. Stay warm.
    Me: I know you're just doing your job. I thank you. I will promise to stay away from any of the-
    OSG: I, I- You seem very kosher. I understand.
    Me: All right. (To OSG2) Am I free to go?
    OSG2: Oh, yeah, yeah. You're clear at this point.
    Me: All right.
    OSG: We're done Michael.
    Me: I just want to double check with the officers. All right. (To OSG2) This is Sgt. ******* right here, in the middle?
    OSG2: Yes.
    Jon: Are we good to go?
    Me: I just want to double check that we're good to go.
    LC: You called it a kubotan?
    Me: Yes, a kubotan. K-U-B-O-T-A-N. Yes, it is made out of molded plastic. It has a keyring on the end.
    OSG: You ever watch, you ever watch MSNBC?
    Me: Yes.
    OSG: They had a prisoner make a- take a little coffee cup lid and melt it with, you know the little toilet paper thing?
    Me: Yes.
    OSG: And melt it into a sharp little object.
    Me: I, I understand.
    [One of the suspect's friends is still yelling at SJ and the other officers. The original suspect with the concealed firearm is now out of handcuffs and I believe he and the other friend have essentially been released without charge.]
    OSG: You have a good night, Michael. I'm going back inside, ok?
    Me: Thank you. Thank you very much. Have a good night..

    Jon: You did good, Mike.
    Me: I'll be good.
    Jon: No, I said you did good. You look like you're about ready to turn into a popsicle.
    Me: Well-
    Jon: But it's a good idea to probably not have your hands in your pockets right now.
    Me: It's cold. (Pause) Well, I assume that we're going straight back to the hotel, right?
    Jon: Probably a good idea. Unless you wanna grab some grub?
    Me: No.
    LC: Do, do you need anything else, sir?
    Jon: Are we all set?
    Me: Am I free to go?
    LC: You are all set.
    Jon: Thank you so much.
    LC: ****, did you get the last four of the event number, or no?
    Me: Yes, yes I did.
    LC: Good, ok.
    Me: And I can contact the Las Vegas Metro Police Department?
    LC: Absolutely. 828-3111 and uh, you can contact them and you can say they impounded evidence for possession of a dangerous weapon-
    Me: Ok.
    LC: -and, um, it was put in as evidence, so that's evidence. You can try to get that back. Uh, not very likely, but you know, potentially people will try. You can possibly get it back. Like I said, 828-3111
    Me: All right. And I just contact the general number. There's no special-?
    LC: 828-3111 is the general number.
    Me: Ok.
    LC: What you do is, when you contact that number, they'll go ahead and transfer you to wherever they need to transfer you. If you want to retrieve your evidence, they'll go ahead and put you through to the evidence vault and what not. Uh, like I said, I don't know if they're gonna possibly give that back to you, but-
    SJ: (To Jon off to the side) Mike's not understanding that, I'm supposed to take him to jail right now. And he ain't- he ain't- he ain't feelin' that right now.
    LC: -we're gonna impound that as evidence. And the crime would be possession of a dangerous weapon.
    Me: Possession of a dangerous weapon.
    LC: That's correct.
    Me: Ok.
    LC: Ok? And, that's something that you're not being charged with, but, you essentially can go to jail for this, but we're not arresting you. That's within our discretion. Ok?
    Me: Ok.
    LC: That's it.
    Me: Ok. (Looking at LC's name tag) And your last name is ********?
    LC: Yes.
    Me: All right. Well-
    LC: I'm the impounding officer-
    Me: Ok.
    LC: -that's out sergeant-
    Me: Ok.
    LC: -and you can have everyone's name on the event list.
    Me: Ok.
    LC: They can give that to you, ok?
    Me: That will appear?
    LC: That will appear. Absolutely. Every person that was on this call will appear.
    Me: Ok.
    LC: Ok?
    Me: Ok. Thank you very much.
    LC: Thank you.
    Me: All right.
    LC: Thank you very much. I understand, like you said, you don't want to talk this further; I understand the two of you have your rights, we have our procedures that we follow, you know, we have to follow the law according to the Nevada statutes of, uh- Nevada Revised Statutes.
    Me: Oh.
    LC: So, go ahead and look that up also, ok?
    Me: I sure will.
    Jon: Thank you.
    LC: Ok, thank you.
    [Jon and I now start to walk away from the scene in the direction of SJ who is talking with one of O'Shea's security guards.]
    Me: Excuse me, Sgt. *******?
    SJ: Yep.
    Me: Hi. (I extend my hand out and shake SJ's hand) Uh, I just want to say I, uh, appreciate the work you guys do-
    SJ: No problem.
    Me: -I know that, you guys have a tough job.
    SJ: You see what I'm talking about, with the gun thing?
    Me: I, I understand, but I still say that I'm going to enforce my rights for freedom of speech.
    SJ: Nobody's- nobody's gonna stop you. Nobody said you couldn't say anything. You can say anything you want. That's the freedom of speech-
    Me: Well-
    SJ: (Pointing towards my holster) -that's the freedom of expression.
    Me: Understandably though, you claim I'm going to be stopped everytime I come on The Strip.
    SJ: And you will. This guy right here, that had this gun right here, he's legal to have his gun, but you've just seen what it created in the bathroom when he passed out, and his gun comes flying out, and everybody sees it. It creates drama. In this day and age, when everybody is waiting on someone to walk into a casino and kill a bunch of people- You have the right- you have the right to walk around here in Nevada, if- (pauses) if you're a resident here with a gun in the holster out in the open just like the old Wild Wild West. However, everytime you do that, you're gonna draw attention. People are gonna call it in and go, "There's a guy walking down the street with a gun." And we're not just gonna go...

    [Unfortunately, it's at this moment that my digital voice recorder runs out of battery time, so I missed the last two minutes or so of my conversation with SJ. To sum up, he claimed that though it was legal, someone OCing on The Strip is completely out of the ordinary and when the call comes in, they'll detain the subject everytime because they (the police) fear that anyone with a gun is only there with one purpose - to initiate a mass execution in one of the casinos. SJ had a very "us vs. them" attitude for a LEO. He gave me the following example: if I (Mike) was allowed to have my gun out in the open at the craps table and I just lost $200, I'd now be angry and since I had a firearm at the ready, I wouldn't be able to help myself from just "blasting away" at everyone. I politely reminded him that such use of a firearm would be a criminal act, that 99%+ of gun owners would not do such a thing, and his argument is really one against any citizen being able to possess any firearms. I told him that having a "Gun Free Zone" is much more likely to endanger my life and the lives of those around me. Also, back home in Arizona, I OC absolutely everywhere I go and no one, especially the police, even give me a second look. I reiterated how I was going to enforce my rights and continue to OC the next time I came to Las Vegas. I then thanked him for listening to me and wished him a happy New Year. All in all, the officers of the LVMPD acted in a professional and courteous manner during this incident. However, I still believe that they had no legitimate "reasonable suspicion" to initiate a Terry Stop, nor do I believe that they had the authority to seize my kubotan as a "dangerous weapon." What does everyone else think?]

  2. #2
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    I haven't read it, but based on the thread title, you need to delete the post before someone quotes it, and consider getting a lawyer.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
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    Amazing.

    I just don't understand some LEOs... Why do they think anyone BESIDES cops that have guns are teetering on the edge of insanity, ready to go on a killing spree?

    I'd be filing a complaint with their department, and contacting the FBI for prosecution of the department for its policy of stopping anyone with an EMPTY HOLSTER, let alone a gun.

    That's amazingly stupid.

  4. #4
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    Well, since it doesn't look like he's going to delete it, might as well discuss it.

    Lets not quote it, in case he later decides to delete it.

    I'm not sure if he is chargeable for whatever weapons he did have. He might want to look into this thoroughly so he can decide whether he wants to risk even a "political" prosecution on misapplied law or conviction by "testilying" police.

    The standard drill calls for him to file decide whether to sue or formally complain.

    If he decides to formally complain, the next step would be FOIA/Sunshine Law requests for the 911 tapes and radio traffic, in-patrol car text messages, and department e-mails. If the state has such laws.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  5. #5
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    Hey, welcome to vegas.


    You're probably pissed to hell and back about it still as I was when my incident occurs. Don't let that stop you from making the point.

    I still open carry all the time. I make a point to stop at primm, nv just to let the californians see.

  6. #6
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    ourmanthejoker wrote:
    Hey, welcome to vegas.


    You're probably pissed to hell and back about it still as I was when my incident occurs. Don't let that stop you from making the point.

    I still open carry all the time. I make a point to stop at primm, nv just to let the californians see.



    This is a bad case as was yours. What legal action Joker have you taken?

  7. #7
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    They were definitely out of line. Clark Co. and some of the local jurisdictions thereinare already in violation of Nevada state law, and the NRA is already working on that. This is just another example of the attitude of LE in Clark Co. where gun = bad guy.

    The relevant N.R.S. would appear to be:

    N.R.S. 202.320, N.R.S. 202.340, and N.R.S. 202.350

    varminter22is more familiar with the laws than I am, I'm sure that he would be willing to share any insight that he might have in this case. PM him if he doesn't post on this soon.


    Unfortunately, I'm having problems with my computer tonight so I can't include all of the statutes in my post, but you can still look them up.

  8. #8
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    Let's try this again. The relevant N.R.S. would appear to be:

    N.R.S. 202.320, N.R.S. 202.340, and N.R.S. 202.350

    NRS 202.320 Drawing deadly weapon in threatening manner.

    1. Unless a greater penalty is provided in NRS 202.287, a person having, carrying or procuring from another person any dirk, dirk-knife, sword, sword cane, pistol, gun or other deadly weapon, who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits any of such deadly weapons in a rude, angry or threatening manner not in necessary self-defense, or who in any manner unlawfully uses that weapon in any fight or quarrel, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

    Which you didn't do.

    NRS 202.340 Confiscation and disposition of dangerous weapons by law enforcement agencies.

    1. Except as otherwise provided for firearms forfeitable pursuant to NRS 453.301, when any instrument or weapon described in NRS 202.350 is taken from the possession of any person charged with the commission of any public offense or crime or any child charged with committing a delinquent act, the instrument or weapon must be surrendered to:

    (a) The head of the police force or department of an incorporated city if the possession thereof was detected by any member of the police force of the city; or

    (b) The chief administrator of a state law enforcement agency, for disposal pursuant to NRS 333.220, if the possession thereof was detected by any member of the agency.

    Ê In all other cases, the instrument or weapon must be surrendered to the sheriff of the county or the sheriff of the metropolitan police department for the county in which the instrument or weapon was taken.

    2. Except as otherwise provided in subsection 5, the governing body of the county or city or the metropolitan police committee on fiscal affairs shall at least once a year order the local law enforcement officer to whom any instrument or weapon is surrendered pursuant to subsection 1 to:

    (a) Retain the confiscated instrument or weapon for use by the law enforcement agency headed by the officer;

    (b) Sell the confiscated instrument or weapon to another law enforcement agency;

    (c) Destroy or direct the destruction of the confiscated instrument or weapon if it is not otherwise required to be destroyed pursuant to subsection 5;

    (d) Trade the confiscated instrument or weapon to a properly licensed retailer or wholesaler in exchange for equipment necessary for the performance of the agency’s duties; or

    (e) Donate the confiscated instrument or weapon to a museum, the Nevada National Guard or, if appropriate, to another person for use which furthers a charitable or public interest.

    5. Except as otherwise provided in subsection 6, the officer to whom a confiscated instrument or weapon is surrendered pursuant to subsection 1 shall:

    (a) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (c), destroy or direct to be destroyed any instrument or weapon which is determined to be dangerous to the safety of the public.

    (b) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (c), return any instrument or weapon, which has not been destroyed pursuant to paragraph (a):

    (1) Upon demand, to the person from whom the instrument or weapon was confiscated if the person is acquitted of the public offense or crime of which he was charged; or

    (2) To the legal owner of the instrument or weapon if the Attorney General or the district attorney determines that the instrument or weapon was unlawfully acquired from the legal owner. If retention of the instrument or weapon is ordered or directed pursuant to paragraph (c), except as otherwise provided in paragraph (a), the instrument or weapon must be returned to the legal owner as soon as practicable after the order or direction is rescinded.

    (c) Retain the confiscated instrument or weapon held by him pursuant to an order of a judge of a court of record or by direction of the Attorney General or district attorney that the retention is necessary for purposes of evidence, until the order or direction is rescinded.

    (d) Return any instrument or weapon which was stolen to its rightful owner, unless the return is otherwise prohibited by law.

    NRS 202.350 Manufacture, importation, possession or use of dangerous weapon or silencer; carrying concealed weapon without permit; penalties; issuance of permit to carry concealed weapon; exceptions.

    1. Except as otherwise provided in this section and NRS 202.355 and 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, a person within this State shall not:

    (a) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend or possess any knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a switchblade knife, blackjack, slungshot, billy, sand-club, sandbag or metal knuckles;

    (b) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend, possess or use a machine gun or a silencer, unless authorized by federal law;

    (c) With the intent to inflict harm upon the person of another, possess or use a nunchaku or trefoil; or

    (d) Carry concealed upon his person any:

    (1) Explosive substance, other than ammunition or any components thereof;

    (2) Dirk, dagger or machete;

    (3) Pistol, revolver or other firearm, or other dangerous or deadly weapon; or

    (4) Knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle.

    2. Except as otherwise provided in NRS 202.275 and 212.185, a person who violates any of the provisions of:

    (a) Paragraph (a) or (c) or subparagraph (2) or (4) of paragraph (d) of subsection 1 is guilty:

    (1) For the first offense, of a gross misdemeanor.

    (2) For any subsequent offense, of a category D felony and shall be punished as provided in NRS 193.130.

    I don't see where your kubotan falls into the description of "dangerous weapon".


  9. #9
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    Citizen wrote:
    I haven't read it, but based on the thread title, you need to delete the post before someone quotes it, and consider getting a lawyer.
    I don't see much need to delete what will just go in his civil rights complaint anyway. You do need to try to finda nevada lawyer willing to take this on a contingency basis and file a law suit against the police officer involved. If the facts are the way described, it sure deems doubtful that there was reasonable suspicion needed to detain him; further doubtful that there was both reasonable belief that he was both armed and presently dangerous to pat him down, and further doubtful that there was any probable cause to search his person (i.e., pockets).

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    DELETE THE POST

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    I should add that the seizure of your property is a violation of the 14th amendment. Seizure of property without due process of law.

    -Zzz

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    Dude, you really need to see the "don't talk to cops" video

    IMHO, you are doing way, way, way, way too much talking.

    No way I'd give up my SSN or ID in a state that doesn't require it.

    Talking about your permits and all this BS is silly.

    Once again, all you ever need to say in order is:

    I don't consent to any searches

    Am I being detained?

    Do you suspect me of a crime, and if so, what crime?

    Am I free to go?

    I want a lawyer.

    Everytime you do that, this is how you end up. You're gonna be dealin' with us everytime.

    That's one expensive statement. Got Danbus 10k in his VA encounter.

    Exercise your rights and shut up. The ONLY time I'd actually encourage some dialogue is when the SJ went on about harassing me every time I walk with an open holster.

    Maybe I should make a point and take you to jail for possession of a dangerous weapon.

    Why not ratchet up your 1983 suit a few thousand... "Officer if you think I'm breaking the law, you should take me to jail" but that's just me.

    The seizure plus the rest of the crap would most definitely result in a suit.



  13. #13
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    IANAL, but I would say the RAS could be the empty holster. Holsters usually have handguns in them, but one is not present in this holster. The police officer might suspect that the handgun is concealed upon your person, which is a criminal act unless you have a permit.


    The bad part for the police officer is the statement that they will continuously harass you. Shame on them!

    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    i'm glad my fellow heroes were able to keep you safe.

    don't stop paying taxes or else we won't be able to perform our tireless and very important duties.

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    I've got a grandstudent on the job there, I'll ask him what's doing with this.

    To me, it sure sounds as if the cops got ahead of themselves and set themselves up for a civil rights violation law suit. I'd be looking for an attorney to take the case if I were you.

    Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

    Clyde

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    Here are my suggestions to you:

    1. Contact a GOOD civil rights attorney and see if you have a lawsuit against the LVMPD for violating your civil rights. You may be able to financially punish the city of Las Vegas because of the poor, unprofessional conduct of their officers.
    2. Contact your Arizona Congressman and ask him to see if there is anything he/she can do to find out why it is LVMPD insists on acting like they did.
    3. Make several copies of that digital tape, put one in a safe deposit box, give one to someone you know and trust and ask them to hold on to it, give another to the Congressional or State Representative and let them know how you were treated.
    4. Contact the FBI and file a civil rights complaint against the LVMPD--if you feel your rights were violated--and it certainly sounds to me as if they were, but I'm no lawyer.
    5. Contact the state of Nevada and file a complaint against the officers involved. Having the LVMPD investigate themselves is like asking the fox to investigate a recent hen house break in...
    6. It may/may not be a good idea to contact the media and trying to get your story out--if nothing else it could bring unwanted attention to the conduct of the LVMPD.

    These are just suggestions--but if you are willing to simply lay down and let them get by with it--the next time they do something like this--and it sounds like they are quite comfortable with the commission of this type of conduct--they may go even further....The police need more accountability and more oversight. A good lawsuit, or a civil rights investigation by the FBI could help with that--the downside is--if the FBI decided to investigate, and found no wrong doing on the part of the police--it will only encourage more of these type of acts by the Police department. So you need to weigh this carefully.

    My final suggestions--and this is just IMO as well--don't tell officers that "you know they have a tough job"--don't placate them while they are violating your rights, don't apologize to them if you have not done anything, because they are not your friend, and by and large they really just don't care whether you are sorry or not--they are looking for a reason to arrest you--period, and watch this youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

    And if you have any doubts about the type of conduct that you can expect from officers--all you have to do is take a look at the recent events in Alameda Ca., where they shot an unresisting, unarmed guy who was laying face down on the ground. And no--I'm not anti-law enforcement. I am anti-ABUSE. I am PRO CITIZEN--first, last and always.

    These are merely my opinions.



  17. #17
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    I agree with the majority here.

    At a minimum, the LEO(s) conduct was improper - and probably (IMHO) unlawful/unconstitutional.

    Seems to me you need an attorney.

    IF attorneys don't think you have a case, I would most certainly file a complaint with the LVMPD with copies to your Assemblyman, Senator, perhaps the NV AG, etc.

    Thanks to the guy that posted the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjM...eature=related Although some examples in the video refer to unlawful activity, it is still relevant to lawful firearms owners/carriers.

    Do a google search of "stop and frisk law" - many good websites.

    Also see:

    http://www.districtattorney.slco.org...k/vol6iss1.pdf

    http://familyrightsassociation.com/i...lor_of_law.htm



  18. #18
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    I echo the "DELETE THE POST" comments. Keep your case facts between you and your lawyer. Likely already too late for that.

    You and/or your lawyer need to first determine if there is any legal standing for the alleged "deadly weapon" referred to by LE. "Kubotan" as I recall seeing in ads are normally cylindrical. Having one that has edges may redefine it, but I don't know, and IANAL.

    If you were directly in front of any LE vehicle for the relevant period, you have from FOIA requests for video and audio. Same for the Casino cameras, but I don't know if that is the same. I bet the LE can get those videos. If so, then I think "discovery" should allow your lawyer to also get them.

    Notice a trend here? Get a Lawyer. Delete your post.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  19. #19
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    wrightme wrote:
    I echo the "DELETE THE POST" comments. Keep your case facts between you and your lawyer. Likely already too late for that.

    You and/or your lawyer need to first determine if there is any legal standing for the alleged "deadly weapon" referred to by LE. "Kubotan" as I recall seeing in ads are normally cylindrical. Having one that has edges may redefine it, but I don't know, and IANAL.

    If you were directly in front of any LE vehicle for the relevant period, you have from FOIA requests for video and audio. Same for the Casino cameras, but I don't know if that is the same. I bet the LE can get those videos. If so, then I think "discovery" should allow your lawyer to also get them.

    Notice a trend here? Get a Lawyer. Delete your post.
    Depends on what "tapered" with a blunt end means.

    Could be one of several models of kubotan.



    I could see the cops mistaking this one for a "dagger" as it has a pointed end and could by a stretch be considered a stabbing weapon.



    This style however, they would be hard pressed to label "a dagger".

  20. #20
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    Wow....

    OK, here's the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly:

    The Bad: I'm assuming the casino called LVMPD on you, since you were inside their establishment gambling. The police will come based on a call of a potential 'man with a gun call', especially since the casinos are no-go zones (most are posted). The empty holster would most probably count towards reasonable suspicion, since it can be reasonably assumed that if you have a holster, you might have a gun.

    LVMPD would be within their rights, based on the nature ofthe complaint (posted private property), and the RAS, to contuct a Terry stop (temporary detention w/patdown).

    The Good: LVMPD blatently overstepped the Terry stop by digging in your pockets (even by 'manipulating' your pockets). By actually pulling stuff out of your pockets that were obviously not weapons (wallet, keys, etc), they conducted a Search of your person, without 4th Amendment exceptions (arrest, warrant, exigency, concent, etc).

    LVMPD also stated that they would harass you every time you walked down the street with an empty holster. Since NV is an open carry rights state, and has an in-place CCW system, possession of a firearm is not an inherently illegal act (in fact,it is an inherently LEGAL act). This is gold to you.

    The Ugly: LVMPD also confiscated your Kubota (sp?) without a reciept. Now, the good part is that I'm sure it's policy (if not state law) that a reciept must be given for all seized property. The acutal seizure is going to be legal, becuase the officer would be allowed to seize what they believed was an illegal item, then either confer or submit a report to the District Attorney/County Attorney for review and possible filing of charges. It is really not all that uncommon, especially when a) it may be a grey area, and b) the officer doesn't want to arrest you.

    Now, I know many here may argue about the seizure of personal property, but the courts have repeatedly held it as valid.

    All in all, LVMPD stepped on their d*cks. I'm glad you taped it.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    If you carried that same stuff into one of the Rez casino's here... You'd gone to jail. I don't even carry a loaded mag pouch... and I OC all the time. Vegas is... 'Vegas'. I wouldn't carry there or in Reno... anywhere near the 'strip's. There's no real need.

    But then... that's me. My opinion is you pushed the envelope on private property with the 'empty holster' routine. As a former cop...I wouldn't care about your 'political statements' as much as I would about the 'public safety' in that particular environment. The Kubaku is a weapon... not a doo-dad. The 'cuffs are a bit much. Taser's 'n pepperspray are also 'weapons' 'n it's a wonder they didn't sieze them as well.

    In 'police parlance'... they saw you as a 'goof'.

    In Vegas... there are a lott'a 'goofs'. There's also a lotta jailhouse lawyers.You're lucky you didn't get locked up as a public nuisance.

  22. #22
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    If you carried that same stuff into one of the Rez casino's here... You'd gone to jail. I don't even carry a loaded mag pouch... and I OC all the time. Vegas is... 'Vegas'. I wouldn't carry there or in Reno... anywhere near the 'strip's. There's no real need.

    But then... that's me. My opinion is you pushed the envelope on private property with the 'empty holster' routine. As a former cop...I wouldn't care about your 'political statements' as much as I would about the 'public safety' in that particular environment. The Kubaku is a weapon... not a doo-dad. The 'cuffs are a bit much. Taser's 'n pepperspray are also 'weapons' 'n it's a wonder they didn't sieze them as well.

    In 'police parlance'... they saw you as a 'goof'.

    In Vegas... there are a lott'a 'goofs'. There's also a lotta jailhouse lawyers.You're lucky you didn't get locked up as a public nuisance.
    A kubotan is not necessarily a weapon. Anything can be weaponized if you have some idea what to look for. When I see someone carrying a kubotan I say KUDOS to them for taking responsibility for their own protection.

    anything in the environment can be weaponized if you have some idea what to look for...

    You speak of "public safety"--public safety is a catchall for anything they don't agree with....It is not a public safety issue for anyone to carry a gun in the open, much less a kubotan. A kubotan is not a weapon--it is a tool of defense. As I recall I don't recall any stories of anyone being killed as a result of a kubotan attack. If there is a documented case of a preemptive attack against someone by use of kubotan--I would be delighted to see it--could it happen--sure, but it hasn't, now has it? A kubotan is a close quarters tool--it is meant for when you are in close contact with your attacker. What will be next--will it be a public safety issue for us to have an inkpen on our person as we walk down the street? I mean seriously--"public safety" has been taken way too far., and has been the excuse which has been used to justify the trampling of our rights in many cases...

    When I see the police--I see "goof"--in citizen parlance.

    The OP is not a public nuisance. He did not do anything for which he should have been harassed or have his rights stepped on. People are just simply scared of their own shadows...I mean really--when is this society we live in going to grow up and start acting like adults?

    If I saw someone walk by my house right now carrying an AK-I would leave them be--I would not call the police, I would not bother them--if they are minding their own business, then I will CERTAINLY mind mine...everyone else in this society should do the same--because if everyone minded their own business--the world would be a nice, happier place...





  23. #23
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    My bad... Kubotan. Thinkin' one thing 'n writin' the other.



    Past your front door ain't 'Vegas'. 'Vegas is... well, 'Vegas'. It's a whole nuther world.

  24. #24
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    My bad... Kubotan. Thinkin' one thing 'n writin' the other.



    Past your front door ain't 'Vegas'. 'Vegas is... well, 'Vegas'. It's a whole nuther world.
    It sounds like it. I just wouldn't do well in such closed minded, problem hunting cities where the people jump at the sound of a car backfiring....

    they need to grow up and act like adults.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Tourism + gambling + prostitution (legal) + LOTS ofmoney = no weapons

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