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Thread: identify this munition

  1. #1
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    If i'm thinking currectly and my research is good.. this round came from a gun issued to a person who works with national incedent management services...

    As far as i know public knowledge suggests there isnt an armed force apart of this service.. and is meant as a rescue recovery division of fema and HD...



    am i wrong?

    NIms was printed on the back of the shell, it doesnt smell like it was recently fired and it smashed up at the firing end..

  2. #2
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    Maybe stands for"National Inventory Management Strategy"



    http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:...cd=6&gl=us



    FLETC Receives White House Environmental Stewardship Award

    On July 15, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) received the 2004 Presidential Closing the Circle Award for its leadership in driving the development, procurement, and implementation of so-called "green" ammunition used in its firearms training programs.

    The Closing the Circle Award recognizes outstanding contributions of federal agencies in environmental stewardship; this year FLETC was recognized under the Waste/Pollution Prevention category. Reduced Hazard Ammunition (RHA) is manufactured using non-lead materials and greatly reduces the health and environmental risks associated with the use of traditional lead ammunition in training.

    FLETC, which is located in Glynco, Ga., expends approximately 20 million rounds of ammunition per year on 54 ranges at four training sites around the country—a number exceeded only by the military. Since undertaking the RHA project in 1998, FLETC has reduced the amount of lead-containing ammunition that it uses by 75 percent, eliminating some 70,000 pounds of lead from the waste stream, with an eventual goal of 100 percent reduction.

    In 1998, no specifications existed for "green" ammunition. FLETC requested that ammunition manufacturers produce RHA having the same performance characteristics as traditional ammunition but without the associated health and safety risks for students, staff, community, and the environment. FLETC supported product development by establishing $43 million worth of contracts that are now used by 34 agencies. Manufacturers now produce viable RHA in nearly every caliber.

    Since then, due to FLETC’s leadership and the volume of demand for ammunition it generates, the per-round cost of RHA has dropped considerably, in some cases by as much as 48 percent.







    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...p;aq=f&oq=



    Search : National Inventory Management Strategy (NIMS) [ACC]

    1 U.S. Army Defense Ammunition Center and School Course Descriptions. Learning Materials. #38 of 2217 items. Benefit of Value. Popular Tags ...
    https://acc.dau.mil/Search.aspx?id=32115&q=ammunition&m=6&tfp=1&tfk=1&tfd=1 - 24k -
    https://acc.dau.mil/Search.aspx%3Fid%3D32115%26q%3Dammunition%26m%3D6% 26tfp%3D1%26tfk%3D1%26tfd%3D1+NIms+ammunition& hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us]Cached[/url] - https://acc.dau.mil/Search.aspx%3Fid%3D32115%26q%3Dammunition%26m%3D6% 26tfp%3D1%26tfk%3D1%26tfd%3D1]Similar pages[/url]

    Search : National Inventory Management Strategy (NIMS) [ACC]

    3 Office of the Executive Director for Conventional Ammunition ... 6 U.S. Marine Corps Program Manager for Ammunition (Environmental and Explosives Safety ...
    https://acc.dau.mil/Search.aspx?id=32115&q=ammunition&t=All - 39k -
    https://acc.dau.mil/Search.aspx%3Fid%3D32115%26q%3Dammunition%26t%3DAl l+NIms+ammunition&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&a mp;gl=us]Cached[/url] - https://acc.dau.mil/Search.aspx%3Fid%3D32115%26q%3Dammunition%26t%3DAl l]Similar pages[/url]
    More results from https://acc.dau.mil »
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

  3. #3
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    Probably National Incident Command System...DHS and FEMA related

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    search results http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=nims+9mm



    is the search terms i used before when i came across a fema site stateing that a 9mm with 30 round clip was standard issue for a NIMS response team of sorts. not many details given on which situation required these units.. and i have difficulty finding it again. to post here.

    This inventory management to certify green bullets with less lead in them..

    does anyone have a green bullet with NIMS stamped on it? this would then confirm that this is a certification stamp of approval. that the bullet is green... And not a munition from an agency.. as other munition for speacial issue aren't stamped FBI or CIA.. but are special types of munitions and that is how they are identified and traced to the agencies..


    But as far as i know basic training of these types of personel are trianed not to leave anything behind that would identify them or the company.. And i was never soppose to find this..


    this site also had some relevance http://www.ntoa.org/conference/courses.html

    a good read about open carry on campus.. about the VT shooting as well. students already carried guns on campus..prior to this inciedent...

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/8304515/Vi...n-Panel-Report

    lolz another google.. hmm i wonder what dogpile.com would list... i got four windows with these current search topics.. heres another combo ;D



    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=RHA+9mm

    produced this about the 4th one down..

    http://members.shaw.ca/cartridge-corner/shotgun.htm < more helpful but for shotguns..and collecters? old styles? head stamps..

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=RHA+9mm+luger+


    i remembered the manufactuer name...=/

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    :bump:

    As, of this time i still have yet to confirm nor find sufficent evidence to denie, the connection of this bullet shell to fema and HD

    Nor do i have anything, showing recent activites in the area other then training exercises using live ammo.. It still does not explain the location in which i found it, or how and why it was left there.. Or why fema would be carrying live ammunition during a training exercise, for emergency planning that involved volonteer citizens and joint participation of many agencyies..... Or who would be issued this ammo.. or who produces such ammo.. And no reports of individuals being shot or warrenting such use of a firearm locally..

    This is becoming an overwhelming curiousity..

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I'm pretty familiar with ammunition identification. Can you post digital photos of this casing? Headstamp, sides, top, etc...A micrometer measuring of the base width, neck width and length would also be helpful.

    Semper Paratus;

    msc
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    I'm pretty familiar with ammunition identification. Can you post digital photos of this casing? Headstamp, sides, top, etc...A micrometer measuring of the base width, neck width and length would also be helpful.

    Semper Paratus;

    msc
    That was my first thought, though I have little knowledge in the way of MI. I do find it interesting.

    I recently ran across this stuff:



    It's expensive, but really cool looking to me.
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    PrayingForWar wrote

    That was my first thought, though I have little knowledge in the way of MI. I do find it interesting.

    I recently ran across this stuff:



    It's expensive, but really cool looking to me.
    That is the 7.62 nato Saboted Light Armor Piercing round...a hardened steel penetrator in a plastic sabot...very interesting, and yes, very expensive.

    Grimstar

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    Cool sabots... Where are the pics of the OT casings, brass, bullets or whatever they have?

    msc
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  11. #11
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    Well i no longer have the actual shell.. I gave it to a friend that knew of these things.. now, nobody has any idea where he is... how strange =C hope he's ok.. he's not in any jail or hospital, etc i checked.. just gone.. I have filed missing persons reports in the past for such things.. and the paperwork is never actually gone through process.. I don't even know his name anyway... we thought not using names would some how protect us.. I've worked with him for over 3 years, he's always been correct, or could figure out why something went wrong and how..


    So i guess the question now is.. has anyone else seen or have had use of such ammunition.. with "NIMS" stamped on it.. I originally just wanted to know it's unique charecteristics if any.. and if anyone knew of such labeling of ammunitions.. It seems obvious that the public hasn't seen such ammuntion.. yet.. and has since been disposed of and relabled or common labels used...And even law enforcement didn't know of such munitions.. atleast the ones i've talked to and shown the shell.. they did insist that i give it to them tho.. which i didnt..


    As stated earlier nims is now another name <see the pdf> but has the same basic role.. publicly they are soppose to be responsible for disposing of lead, and chemical? ammunition.. In fact they are part of a national incident management force.. there is a broad range of things they have responded to. But they aren't in the public eye, and often wear "fbi,cia,fema" jackets or other uniforms, It includes a police / military like force. As well as first responders and emt's and organisers or group leaders. and then supervisers..

    there are several meanings of "nims" through the years. But none have been stamped on a bullet shell. atleast i thought..
    until i found this one shell.. I should have taken photos

  12. #12
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    20+ years of military service around ammo a lot. I only remember seeing headstamps from where they were made (LC for Lake City, etc) and the year of manufacture. RRA is Rock River Arsenal, TZZ is Israeli Military Industries, WCC is Winchester.

    Can't ever remember seeing NIMS on any casings. Bummer you didn't take pics. The only thing I can think of would be SIMN and thatmightbe Simunitions. Lots of SpecOps units use them for training, including the Navy. I remember them using blue and red rounds. They had a plastic piece with paint crimped into a conical shape at the tip. Did it look anything like this?


    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  13. #13
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    PrayingForWar wrote
    That was my first thought, though I have little knowledge in the way of MI. I do find it interesting.

    I recently ran across this stuff:



    It's expensive, but really cool looking to me.
    Be very careful with this. Check your B A T F E rules about this very carefully before you buy it.

  14. #14
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    shad0wfax wrote:
    PrayingForWar wrote
    That was my first thought, though I have little knowledge in the way of MI. I do find it interesting.

    I recently ran across this stuff:



    It's expensive, but really cool looking to me.
    Be very careful with this. Check your B A T F E rules about this very carefully before you buy it.
    +1 on the above...
    Theseare for sale? To the public? :what:

    They look like miniature armor-piercing anti-tank rounds. Steel or tungsten"penetrator" in an "accelerator" type discarding sabot.

    Looks like .308 (or 7.62mm x 51mm) with the actual round being a .22 to .25 caliber penetrator. I think BATFE does regulate the sale of armor piercing rounds if I'm not mistaken.

    Speaking of BATFE... I ordered those BATFE manuals a couple weeks ago and haven't seen them yet... What gives? I thought they would come in a week or so...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Nope, thx for the reply.. the shell casing was a bit longer
    probably more power then usual would be used, it is longer then most 9mm ammo i've ever seen.. aside from .38 special and federal .38 and .45 think magnum. only 9mm.
    i would estimate the second knuckle of my pointer finger.. an inch and a half?? maybe

    when i first started searching and continue to scour the web for similar shells and rounds.. the 9mm parabellum hand gun comes up quite alot.. but is inconsistent with the 30 round clips fema said ( in a document i saw on their site that is no longer available) they issued to these units.. among other things. sounds like something you'd put on a fully auto berreta.. all that i saw on the shell was nims stamped at the bottom edge.. and 9mm at the top. possibly s on the left side and g on the other..

    This is from recall memory.. i remember it as if it were yesterday but various details could be incorrect.. though i am certain that the text on the bottom under the used fireing pin. was definately NIMS.. pressed into clay it was alot more legible.. reconfirming that it was infact these words.. the clay mold went with the bullet shell =/

    when i found it the fireing end was all mashed up, into a folded point.. much like an unfired blank would be. but i could see tool marks on it.. like the gunpowder had been removed.. but the shell had been fired.. judgeing by the brass's condition less then a month it had been exposed to the elements.. water from rain etc hadn't even touched it.. so it would have had to been left there after the recent rains.. no more then a week..and probably run over by a few cars..

    I did explore the idea that maybe it said sims.. but quickly discarded that after looking it over again.. I can't say that it's stamping is anything else but "NIMS"
    Is there even a shell stamping with "NIM"?? that is a 9mm?+

    the chances that i'll just find another one of these in better condition.. seems highly unlikely =C espeacially if these guys are rounding up lead and used ammo and discarding it / repourposeing it the

    first thing i do when i find something like this again is take a dam photo =/
    at the time my digital camera went from color to black and white.. with spotty focus.. so i didnt think about using it as is.. now its fine.. but focus still sux.. i hate auto focus..

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    23-25 mm seems about the same length of this nims shell casing

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    What am I missing here? Is there something specifically petinent as to where the shell was found?

    If I were looking for a 9mm with a 23mm casing, I'd be checking through Spanish military headstamps. That is of course, unless you know something that hasn't come out in the thread or I'm missing something entirely.

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    well, knowing the bullets or shell casings origins.. what were their purpose. who were they given to and why.

    If other people are widely using the munitions.. and it's for
    casual use with no particularly unique charectoristic. Armor peirceing, depleted uranium, explosive or other types of munitions..

    If its a normal bullet coming out of these things then thats good, Still if its not a widely used commonly available munition..

    who was using it and why.. and where. I know where it was found, i'm familiar with the area. But it was probably placed there not fired in this area.

    so far no one has seen one, or knows who makes them or for who. one thing is connected.. but the acronyms mean many things.. recent information strongly points to divisions and various departments of fema and homeland defense.

    If i could obtain an unused round, or even a photo of one. undoctored etc.. then it proves their existence. tieing it to the gun and the person behind it, with little evidence..
    proves the means of which it was used. and their motives. weither for defense, training, or offense..


    I googled spanish headstamps 9x20 and got some deep history and many details of several types of munitions.. thanks for the info very educational.. s&g i saw may be in the sig sauer?? as a produceing company?

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    shad0wfax wrote:
    PrayingForWar wrote
    That was my first thought, though I have little knowledge in the way of MI. I do find it interesting.

    I recently ran across this stuff:



    It's expensive, but really cool looking to me.
    Be very careful with this. Check your B A T F E rules about this very carefully before you buy it.
    +1 on the above...
    Theseare for sale? To the public? :what:

    They look like miniature armor-piercing anti-tank rounds. Steel or tungsten"penetrator" in an "accelerator" type discarding sabot.

    Looks like .308 (or 7.62mm x 51mm) with the actual round being a .22 to .25 caliber penetrator. I think BATFE does regulate the sale of armor piercing rounds if I'm not mistaken.

    Speaking of BATFE... I ordered those BATFE manuals a couple weeks ago and haven't seen them yet... What gives? I thought they would come in a week or so...
    They are found on Gunbroker.com, and I doubt you can sell anything illegal through them. Further, I looked at the laws, and as far as I can tell, AP restrictions only apply to pistol calibers. Someone smarter than me might find something different. I don't own this stuff, it's $25 bucks a round. I'd rather spend it on plinking ammo.

    Incidentally, if you do buy this stuff, it should not be used in barrels w/ any sort of compensator or muzzle break. Also, all the info I saw in the the military said to ensure the proper barrels were used, because SLAP will not work in standard barrels. As far as I know, the military's smallest SLAP round is .50 BMG, it is also very uncommon. The military did not buy this stuff, (in 7.62)and I can only presume there were too many problems with it. Keep that in mind if you want to buy it and waste a bunch of money.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    As far as I know, the military's smallest SLAP round is .50 BMG,
    From http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...cts/blslap.htm 7.62 was the smallest.
    The 7.62mm effort was not successful in the M60 and caused catastrophic barrel failures due to in-bore break-up of the sabot and the penetrator puncturing the side of the barrel. Also, its increase in penetration was not on the same order of magnitude as the .50 caliber
    Perhaps if you would use a real computer you wouldn't have to apologize for not being able to do so many things on the internet!

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    0.0

    coool

    good info thank you both.

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    jeeper1 wrote:
    As far as I know, the military's smallest SLAP round is .50 BMG,
    From http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...cts/blslap.htm 7.62 was the smallest.
    The 7.62mm effort was not successful in the M60 and caused catastrophic barrel failures due to in-bore break-up of the sabot and the penetrator puncturing the side of the barrel. Also, its increase in penetration was not on the same order of magnitude as the .50 caliber
    Not all together true. In about 1988/89 I was at Picatinny Arsenal and met the engineering team who developed the SLAP rounds for the USMC. They gave me three dummy rounds: .50, 7.62 (.308), and 5.56 (.223). The 7.62 was not developed for the M60, but rather for use in either an M14 or similar semi-automatic or a bolt action rifle. the 5.56 worked fine in the M16A1, but was too light to be very effective. I still have the three slightly tarnishedrounds on my desk.

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