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Thread: Defending our gun rights

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I'm all for defending our gun rights and working with lawmakers on this goal. I also think that if we bite off more than we can chew we may be hurting ourselves.

    After talking with several members at the Flint lunch on Sunday it was decided that perhaps we should choose one law at a time. The statute that concerns MOC at this time is the confusion in the transport of a handgun statute. As you know we have a member that has been charged with a felony for illegal transport even though he followed the statute.

    We need to convince lawmakers to amened this statute with clearer language so that this will not happen again. Short of that we need them to request an AG opinion on what is lawful transport.

    I have written this as a draft of what we would like from an AG opinion.


    Is this something our members can agree on? If so I recommend sending an email to your representatives advising them of our concerns. Comments????

    Generally the confusion in this statute is two fold. First 750.227(2) Sec. 231a (2) b states “Lawful purpose” includes the following: [/b]The first confusion is that many law enforcement agencies define this to mean that these are the only lawful purpose allowed while transporting a lawful handgun. The Michigan State Police (MSP) interprets this to mean a few examples of some lawful purposes but is in no way the only lawful purposes*. Since the term “includes” is used the MSP interpretation is closest to the laws intent, as “includes” is defined to mean a partial list or a portion of a whole. Because of the disparity of interpretations arrests have been made for violating this statute when an officer believes some one has transported a handgun for a lawful purpose that fell outside of the examples given.

    The Cambridge dictionary defines “includes” as a verb; To contain something as a part of something else, or to make something part of something else:[/b][/b]
    [/b]
    [/b]The second area of confusion is the term “en Route”.[/b] Some law enforcement agencies define this to mean a straight line to and from a destination with no detours or other stops between destinations. That is, straight from your home to a destination and straight back with no diversions. Other departments (MSP) have defined “en route” to mean the trip in it’s entirety and allows for many stops in the travel. Some Law enforcement officers have made arrests when it was found that a person deviated from a straight line, back and forth trip.

    Question: Does the term “includes” when used in the statute mean some examples or does it mean all inclusive?

    Question 2: Does the term “en route” mean a straight line or does it mean the travel in it’s entirety and doesn’t necessarily mean directly back and forth?

    The Cambridge dictionary defines “en route” as an adverb; On the way to or from somewhere.[/b]
    [/b]
    [/b]The American Dictonary define “en route” as an adverb or adjective; On or along the way.
    [/b]
    [/b][/b]* Personal conversation with Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441


    TRANSPORTING A HANDGUN:
    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions. (Edited in part)

    Sec. 231a.

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    (2) As used in this section:

    (b) “Lawful purpose” includes the following:

    (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

    (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.

    (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

    (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed on the pistol as is required by section 9 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.429, or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.

    (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.

    (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  2. #2
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    TRANSPORTING A HANDGUN:
    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
    (Edited in part)

    Sec. 231a.

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    (2) As used in this section:

    (b) “Lawful purpose” includes but is not limited to the following:

    (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

    (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.

    (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

    (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed on the pistol as is required by section 9 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.429, or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.

    (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.

    (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.


  3. #3
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    dougwg wrote:
    TRANSPORTING A HANDGUN:
    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
    (Edited in part)

    Sec. 231a.

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    (2) As used in this section:

    (b) “Lawful purpose” includes but is not limited to the following:

    (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

    (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.

    (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

    (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed on the pistol as is required by section 9 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.429, or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.

    (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.

    (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
    I assume you mean that the bold part is what you would like to see be added.

    I would also add a definitionof "en route" meaning the trip in it's entirety and does not mean a straight line to and from. The older statute had verbiage that DID say "to and from" this was changed in 2006 and "en route" was substituted for "to and from". The problem is that some people (apperantley some judges and prosecutors)don't know what en route means and are stuck on the old statute.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  4. #4
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    I have to admit that I'm also a little concerned about spreading ourselves too thin. We are a fairly new group with a lot of energy. If we funnel it properly on our most important issues, we are more likely to gain some headway.

    I also have to agree that transport is currently the most restrictive aspect of open carrying. Current practice increases the chances of endangering folks by increasing the amount of gun handling required in public. Current laws also try to restrict the reasons may open carry without attempting to accomplish this directly.

    The Flint luncheon appears to have been a very well-attended event at a time when our group is trying to make some decisions regarding our future direction. Its too bad many others could not attend. Perhaps we can schedule an event to specifically address these issues in the near future.

    In regards to addressing legislation, I suggest our group shares our intentions withthe other state 2A groupsonce we have developed them. I don't expect these group would oppose our efforts, but I think we might benefit from their experiences in regard to what legislators would be most approachable.

    In regard to strategy and tactics, I think we should continue to develop our own unique grass-roots initiatives. I think we currently have a different approach than the other groups use, and we should not necessarily duplicate the methods they employ.





  5. #5
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    If it's locked and unloaded in the trunk, you can carry it anyway, per federal transport laws, correct? As long as your origin and destination both allow for that firearm to be possessed? or is this ONLY for interstate travel?

  6. #6
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Ziggy, you're thinking of interstate travel. Doesn't apply to driving around solely within your home state.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Hcidem wrote:
    I have to admit that I'm also a little concerned about spreading ourselves too thin. We are a fairly new group with a lot of energy. If we funnel it properly on our most important issues, we are more likely to gain some headway.

    I also have to agree that transport is currently the most restrictive aspect of open carrying. Current practice increases the chances of endangering folks by increasing the amount of gun handling required in public. Current laws also try to restrict the reasons may open carry without attempting to accomplish this directly.

    The Flint luncheon appears to have been a very well-attended event at a time when our group is trying to make some decisions regarding our future direction. Its too bad many others could not attend. Perhaps we can schedule an event to specifically address these issues in the near future.

    In regards to addressing legislation, I suggest our group shares our intentions withthe other state 2A groupsonce we have developed them. I don't expect these group would oppose our efforts, but I think we might benefit from their experiences in regard to what legislators would be most approachable.

    In regard to strategy and tactics, I think we should continue to develop our own unique grass-roots initiatives. I think we currently have a different approach than the other groups use, and we should not necessarily duplicate the methods they employ.



    What a great point. This will grab the attention of those "in charge". I think this definitely needs to be mentioned.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    I'm all for ...
    Looks great. I'd love to send this to the proper people.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  9. #9
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    TRANSPORTING A HANDGUN:
    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
    (Edited in part)

    Sec. 231a.

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner...

    I don't recall Michigan guns as being 'licensed'. I have a license. What is a 'gun licensed to the owner'?

    Also, while responding to one law at a time seems like a moderate approach, they can pass 'em faster than we can fix 'em. Pushing for a single, encompassing bill, i.e. the Preemption Law, is a better course. IMHO

    Carry on

  10. #10
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    I have always read this to mean the license to purchase a pistol. It has struck me as odd before that a license to purchase would not be the same as a license to possess or own.

    I imagine this is the loose interpretation they assign to this term. Perhaps it was enacted before our present time where every comma is used to define new criminals rather than using them to protect our citizens.

  11. #11
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    Hcidem wrote:
    I have always read this to mean the license to purchase a pistol. It has struck me as odd before that a license to purchase would not be the same as a license to possess or own.

    I imagine this is the loose interpretation they assign to this term. Perhaps it was enacted before our present time where every comma is used to define new criminals rather than using them to protect our citizens.
    IMO, you are correct Hcidem.Per 28.422.

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