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Thread: Peaceable Journey Traffic Stop

  1. #1
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    I have a question that I am sure someone here will have some input to.

    I am in the process of getting my CCW. In the meantime I do carry my weapon while traveling in my vehicle.

    If stopped by a LEO for a simple traffic stop, what is everyones recommendation on how to procede with the LEO to inform him/her that I am armed?

    Are you required in the State Of Missouri to disclose this information?

    I am trying to figure out the best way to prevent being drawn down on should something happen.

    Any input will be greatly appreciated.

    Thank You & God Bless

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    I don't have a ccw permit, but I bet they'll let you know the laws at a ccw class.

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    Well Ladies & Gentlemen,


    Unfortunately, I believe I may have "Jinxed" myself by asking this question.

    I was stopped today for my turn signal not working, (*burnt out flasher. It IS fixed now*).

    I was carrying my Springfield XD in a IWB holster inside my vehicle.

    Being as how I am right handed, and carry my wallet on my right side, and there were two officers, one on each side of the vehicle, I decided to inform them that I was armed & asked what they would like me to do.

    The officer did ask me to step out of the vehicle. He informed me that he would get my wallet for me. He got my wallet, took my license, and went back to run my info. All of this while the other officer "secured me".

    The officer then came back, put my license back in the wallet which had been set on the hood of his patrol car, put my wallet back in my pocket & escorted me back to my vehicle.

    He thanked me for informing him about the piece & let me know that he wasn't going to issue me a citation. He ended the conversation with "Man, I sure wish more people would let me know when they are armed." & have a nice day.

    So all in all, I guess it worked out ok. Im not dead, I feel in no way violated, & the cop was very courteous & followed procedure well. Would I have informed them that I had the pistol if I was not carrying an IWB? Probably not. All in all, I guess it is just up to the individual.

    Aim Straight , & God Bless

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    Missouri law does not include a duty to inform. There's some automatic notification by permit holders tied to the driver's (or nondriver's) license, which you are required to carry if you are carrying concealed... but as a non-permit holder you wouldn't be bound by that either (outside of needing it to, well, drive).

    That being said, my answer would be... it depends. If it's just a simple traffic stop where you'll give license and proof of insurance, get your ticket (or hopefully not), and move along, then I don't see a need to even bring it up. If things look like you'll be interacting more than that (stepping outside the vehicle), or if you otherwise have reason to believe that the officer might come to see the weapon in the course of the stop (which, if properly concealed, shouldn't happen) you might go ahead and mention it. I'd rather they know verbally from me than discover it on their own. Something along the lines of, "Hey, FYI, I happen to be carrying a Desert Eagle in a belt holster at 5 o'clock," or whatever, and let them take it from there.

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    Let me get this straight,, You went from (in the process of getting your CCW) on 1/12/09

    to: being pulled over with your pistol on your person in an IWB holster roughly 25 hrs. later on 1/13/09

    That was quick!?!?

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    You don't need a permit to carry while driving:

    From the Missouri statues:
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm
    "Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state."

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    Carnivore wrote:
    Let me get this straight,, You went from (in the process of getting your CCW) on 1/12/09

    to: being pulled over with your pistol on your person in an IWB holster roughly 25 hrs. later on 1/13/09

    That was quick!?!?


    Steelviper wrote:

    You don't need a permit to carry while driving:

    From the Missouri statues:
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm
    "Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state."
    Thank You



    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate



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    scared_shotless wrote:
    Carnivore wrote:
    Let me get this straight,, You went from (in the process of getting your CCW) on 1/12/09

    to: being pulled over with your pistol on your person in an IWB holster roughly 25 hrs. later on 1/13/09

    That was quick!?!?


    Steelviper wrote:

    You don't need a permit to carry while driving:

    From the Missouri statues:
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm
    "Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state."
    Thank You



    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

    The law reads concealable, not concealed,

    It's legal to carry a concealable firearm in a vehicle, not conceal a firearm in a vehicle..

    Carrying a firearm in an IWB holster as it is properly wornis concealing ..

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    Carnivore
    The law reads concealable, not concealed,

    It's legal to carry a concealable firearm in a vehicle, not conceal a firearm in a vehicle..

    Carrying a firearm in an IWB holster as it is properly wornÂ*is concealing ..
    Yes it is... but if you read the subdivision that the relevant clause is modifying:
    "571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
    (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or"

    So... read altogether, you aren't committing a crime by carrying a concealed weapon (knife, firearm, blackjack, or anything else) on or about your person if you are "twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle", etc., etc.

    I'm not a lawyer, but they do cover this pretty extensively in the CCW class. (What else are you going to do for eight hours? It's not shooting...)

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    Didn't scared shotless type that the officer told him to keep his hands clear, and the officer would remove his wallet from his pocket? that causes me to understand that scared shotless was carrying in an IWB holster on his person on the same side or near where he wears his wallet, therefore if he has no CCW permit, and was wearing an IWB holster w/ a firearm holstered in it he was carrying concealed illegal..

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    Carnivore wrote:
    Didn't scared shotless type that the officer told him to keep his hands clear, and the officer would remove his wallet from his pocket? that causes me to understand that scared shotless was carrying in an IWB holster on his person on the same side or near where he wears his wallet, therefore if he has no CCW permit, and was wearing an IWB holster w/ a firearm holstered in it he was carrying concealed illegal..Â*
    Ok. Let's recap.

    1. Scared_shotless was carrying concealed.
    2. It's a crime to carry concealed weapons.
    3. #2 does not apply if shotless is:
    a. over 21
    b. in his car
    c. so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed

    So he was carry concealed, he doesn't have a permit, but since he's in his car and over 21 he's legal. Missouri CCW law is actually great that way.

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    Steelviper wrote:
    Carnivore wrote:
    Didn't scared shotless type that the officer told him to keep his hands clear, and the officer would remove his wallet from his pocket? that causes me to understand that scared shotless was carrying in an IWB holster on his person on the same side or near where he wears his wallet, therefore if he has no CCW permit, and was wearing an IWB holster w/ a firearm holstered in it he was carrying concealed illegal..
    Ok. Let's recap.

    1. Scared_shotless was carrying concealed.
    2. It's a crime to carry concealed weapons.
    3. #2 does not apply if shotless is:
    a. over 21
    b. in his car
    c. so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed

    So he was carry concealed, he doesn't have a permit, but since he's in his car and over 21 he's legal. Missouri CCW law is actually great that way.
    What is so hard to understand here??????

    Steelviper: Great work in trying to put this in plain english.

    Like you said, they cover this extensively in the CCW class.


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    It's not too hard to understand. concealing a weapon IWB or under your seat is still illegal if you don't have a CCW permit

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    Does MO consider IWB like the picture of the two women that appears directly above "stories from the states" at the top of this site, carrying concealed?

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    http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbys...gunlaws_mo.htm

    It is unlawful to carry a firearm concealed on or about one’s person without a concealed carry endorsement on the Missouri driver’s or non-driver’s license or a valid permit to carry concealed firearms issued by any state.

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    lockman wrote:
    Does MO consider IWB like the picture of the two women that appears directly above "stories from the states" at the top of this site, carrying concealed?
    That's a good question. It's not very clearly defined, but for the purposes of it being concealed for the purposes of if you have your permit, I'd say probably not. It's pretty clearly visible from multiple angles. For the purposes of getting in trouble for carrying concealed like that... that's more likely to be a judgment call on the part of whatever LEO you're dealing with at the time. If I were open carrying only I'd go with an OWB to be on the safe side, but that's just me.

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    Carnivore wrote:
    Â*

    http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbys...gunlaws_mo.htm

    It is unlawful to carry a firearm concealed on or about one’s person without a concealed carry endorsement on the Missouri driver’s or non-driver’s license or a valid permit to carry concealed firearms issued by any state.
    You quote a gunlaw summary (which is actually accurate with regards to anybody not in a car, or on their own property, etc.), and I quote the ACTUAL LAW. Subsection 3 of 571.030 clearly makes some exceptions to the rule, and if you refuse to accept that, there's nothing more that I can really do. Subsection 3 was added as a part of the whole CCW initiative, which was what made it such a coup, but unfortunately a lot of people don't know about it.

    Subsection 4 makes the exception of permit holders (MO and otherwise), which is mentioned by your summary above.

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    I stand partially corrected

    http://www.missouricarry.com/mocarry_faq.htm

    I'll concede to being only partially correct on this topic, I was always under the impression that either out in the open, oronly original vehicle storage compartments were legal if one didn't posess a CCW. permit

    But Scared shotless may have walked a fine line when he stepped out of the vehicle still adorning a pistol in a IWB with out a CCW permit, Adisgruntled cop could have seized that moment to arrest scared shotless. I still have trouble accepting a weapon concealed on his person with out a CCW permit, in a vehicle storage compartment is more understandable to my comprehension of the law..



    RSMo 571.030.1.3 and [/font]the Missouri Highway Patrol, Missouri Concealed Weapons Laws (SHP 863).





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    Carnivore wrote:
    I stand partially corrected

    http://www.missouricarry.com/mocarry_faq.htm

    I'll concede to being only partially correct on this topic, I was always under the impression that either out in the open, oronly original vehicle storage compartments were legal if one didn't posess a CCW. permit

    But Scared shotless may have walked a fine line when he stepped out of the vehicle still adorning a pistol in a IWB with out a CCW permit, Adisgruntled cop could have seized that moment to arrest scared shotless. I still have trouble accepting a weapon concealed on his person with out a CCW permit, in a vehicle storage compartment is more understandable to my comprehension of the law..



    RSMo 571.030.1.3 and the Missouri Highway Patrol, Missouri Concealed Weapons Laws (SHP 863).



    You are correct. Technically, I was in violation of the law once I left the vehicle with the concealed weapon.

    However, I was directed to do so by an LEO after I disclosed that I was armed & the location of the weapon.

    I am pretty confident that it would stand in court should the event took a turn for the worse.

    Either way, I do carry in my home, property, &vehicle now, and I will continue to do so until my permit is issued, so that I may carry at all times.



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    YEP ! I need to get seroius about the wife and I getting CCW, and then I'm covered anywhere I'd care to travel, CCW or OC..

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    scared_shotless wrote:
    Carnivore wrote:
    I stand partially corrected

    http://www.missouricarry.com/mocarry_faq.htm

    I'll concede to being only partially correct on this topic, I was always under the impression that either out in the open, oronly original vehicle storage compartments were legal if one didn't posess a CCW. permit

    But Scared shotless may have walked a fine line when he stepped out of the vehicle still adorning a pistol in a IWB with out a CCW permit, Adisgruntled cop could have seized that moment to arrest scared shotless. I still have trouble accepting a weapon concealed on his person with out a CCW permit, in a vehicle storage compartment is more understandable to my comprehension of the law..



    RSMo 571.030.1.3 and the Missouri Highway Patrol, Missouri Concealed Weapons Laws (SHP 863).



    You are correct. Technically, I was in violation of the law once I left the vehicle with the concealed weapon.

    However, I was directed to do so by an LEO after I disclosed that I was armed & the location of the weapon.

    I am pretty confident that it would stand in court should the event took a turn for the worse.

    Either way, I do carry in my home, property, &vehicle now, and I will continue to do so until my permit is issued, so that I may carry at all times.

    If a presumably legal order from a LEO, such as in this case (step out of the car), would cause you to violate the law, does this then make the order invalid? A charge for this would never stick, but just got me thinking. Can a LEO force you to violate the law?

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    scared_shotless wrote:
    Carnivore wrote:
    I stand partially corrected
    You are correct. Technically.................
    Scared Shotless and Carnivore....Car carry is completely legal (you both understand this)...including AR15's under a blanket....but I wanted totalk about IWB a little more. Wasthe pistolcompletely hidden? If ss had a 1911 with the handle showing, then this would be OC, as the statue aboveprohibits concealed carry. Its possible that ss had a pt32 pistol and the IWB holster completely hid the pistol from common observation...at this point in the story, we really don't know. The story on the main page had a great picture of what legalOCing looks like...was this the way your carried your gun ss?



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    Pardon the outsider's intrusion, but I have to ask: what is it in MO law that makes IWB "concealed"?

    I know that MS has a weird ruling that declares a gun concealed "in whole or in part" is concealed, so any holstered weapon would be illegally "concealed", whether IWB or OWB, unless the holster was completely transparent. Does MO have anything like this? If not, why would IWB be a special case?


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    Shawn wrote:
    Scared Shotless and Carnivore....Car carry is completely legal (you both understand this)...including AR15's under a blanket....but I wanted toÂ*talk about IWB a little more.Â* WasÂ*the pistolÂ*completely hidden?Â*
    Actually, if you look at the "definitions" of the statues, the AR15 under the blanket wouldn't fly, as it's got a 16" barrel (unless, I suppose, it's an SBR).

    From the statues:
    "(4) "Concealable firearm", any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, measured from the face of the bolt or standing breech;"

    That being said, the statues don't really provide a uniform definition of what concealed means. Personally, I don't think untucked IWB should count as concealed, but I'd be paranoid about being charged like that guy in Cincinnati who got charged for concealed carry wearing a military-style flap holster. If somebody can call the cops about "man with gun", then it's not concealed.

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    The OP advised the LEO he was armed and the location of the firearm. I'm assuming the butt is visible with that IWB holster ('Don't like them... 'never would wear one) which would not constitute 'concealed'.

    From various threads... it would seem that more than a few people who OC do so with the WRONG holster. Their shirt flops out or whatever 'n then they're faced with a CC situation. For many... this is accidental... but I would caution to 'dress to the gun' always.

    If you are right handed (as I am) I carry my wallet by habit in my right rear pocket. (Some don't, I know... but...) Reaching for your wallet and licenseon the same side as the weapon presents a dillema. (For you and the LEO).When driving, it's also the same side the seat belt buckles on.... effectivelydisarming you in the process and adding something else to 'reach for' in the same location as the weapon. In the presence of a LEO this could trigger an unwanted (Unintended) response.

    I've OC'd a handgun inSW Arizona... beginning in 1966, as CC is rather impractical most times.'Never even heard the term 'open carry'. You were either heeled or you weren't. Concealed carry wasn't even a consideration.

    Early on... it dawned on me that the old time trail cowboys (real ones... not in the movies) carried cross draw. It's much easier to mount up that way and barring a hammer spur loop... the pistol stays in the holster. It's also easier to draw when seated... as those ol' 7" Colts would end up in yer armpit 'fore you could clear leather with a 'strongside' draw. That is... providing the holster didn't come up with the gun.

    That's the reason for 'tie-downs'. However... it's rather awkward climbin' in the saddle with a holster tied to your leg. Once mounted, the pistol isnear sideways or with a dropped buscadero 'is' sideways. The term 'slap leather' is not associated with actually drawing the pistol. It's the act of holding the holster with the free hand while doing so. Cross draw eliminates that problem as well. There's your 'old west' history for today.

    Essentially... it's simple egonomics.

    As applied to bein' heeled while driving... this cross draw method of carry not only makes sense, it's ergonomically practical. The weapon is not in the vicinty of your wallet or seatbelt buckle. It may be drawn while seated... and it's not 'bunched up' with the muzzle in the seat cushion. I also wear a separate gunbelt... which seems to have either 'gone outta style' or been overlooked... particularly among 'townies' 'n city people. (Yeah... I know... I carry on the half-cock notch... 'n I'm not gonna get into the 'why'...)

    For the 'little gun' (Makarov 9x18mm) I use a simple open bucket on my pants belt. No retention feature (unneccesary) 'n that's also cross draw. That's my 'house gun' and sometimes CC gun.

    There's a few 'fanatics on this forum who would argue that they wouldn't advise a LEO that they were armed... 'n cite the Constitutional reasons for not doing so. These types don't like any sort of authority whatever... 'n prob'ly never will. Laws may vary state to state... but the simple courtesy of informing LE that your are armed... or there is a weapon in the vehicle (indicate where) goes a long way. Nice to see some reasonable actions by members of this forum from time to time who prefer to use common sense over 'radical activism'.



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