Peaceable Journey Traffic Stop

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scared_shotless wrote:

Carnivore wrote:

I stand partially corrected

http://www.missouricarry.com/mocarry_faq.htm

I'll concede to being only partially correct on this topic, I was always under the impression that either out in the open, oronly original vehicle storage compartments were legal if one didn't posess a CCW. permit

But Scared shotless may have walked a fine line when he stepped out of the vehicle still adorning a pistol in a IWB with out a CCW permit, Adisgruntled cop could have seized that moment to arrest scared shotless. I still have trouble accepting a weapon concealed on his person with out a CCW permit, in a vehicle storage compartment is more understandable to my comprehension of the law..



RSMo 571.030.1.3 and the Missouri Highway Patrol, Missouri Concealed Weapons Laws (SHP 863).

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You are correct. Technically, I was in violation of the law once I left the vehicle with the concealed weapon.

However, I was directed to do so by an LEO after I disclosed that I was armed & the location of the weapon.

I am pretty confident that it would stand in court should the event took a turn for the worse.

Either way, I do carry in my home, property, &vehicle now, and I will continue to do so until my permit is issued, so that I may carry at all times.

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If a presumably legal order from a LEO, such as in this case (step out of the car), would cause you to violate the law, does this then make the order invalid? A charge for this would never stick, but just got me thinking. Can a LEO force you to violate the law?

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scared_shotless wrote:

Carnivore wrote:

I stand partially corrected

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You are correct. Technically.................

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Scared Shotless and Carnivore....Car carry is completely legal (you both understand this)...including AR15's under a blanket....but I wanted totalk about IWB a little more. Wasthe pistolcompletely hidden? If ss had a 1911 with the handle showing, then this would be OC, as the statue aboveprohibits concealed carry. Its possible that ss had a pt32 pistol and the IWB holster completely hid the pistol from common observation...at this point in the story, we really don't know. The story on the main page had a great picture of what legalOCing looks like...was this the way your carried your gun ss?

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Pardon the outsider's intrusion, but I have to ask: what is it in MO law that makes IWB "concealed"?

I know that MS has a weird ruling that declares a gun concealed "in whole or in part" is concealed, so any holstered weapon would be illegally "concealed", whether IWB or OWB, unless the holster was completely transparent. Does MO have anything like this? If not, why would IWB be a special case?

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Shawn wrote:

Scared Shotless and Carnivore....Car carry is completely legal (you both understand this)...including AR15's under a blanket....but I wanted to talk about IWB a little more.  Was the pistol completely hidden? 

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Actually, if you look at the "definitions" of the statues, the AR15 under the blanket wouldn't fly, as it's got a 16" barrel (unless, I suppose, it's an SBR).

From the statues:
"(4) "Concealable firearm", any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, measured from the face of the bolt or standing breech;"

That being said, the statues don't really provide a uniform definition of what concealed means. Personally, I don't think untucked IWB should count as concealed, but I'd be paranoid about being charged like that guy in Cincinnati who got charged for concealed carry wearing a military-style flap holster. If somebody can call the cops about "man with gun", then it's not concealed.

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The OP advised the LEO he was armed and the location of the firearm. I'm assuming the butt is visible with that IWB holster ('Don't like them... 'never would wear one) which would not constitute 'concealed'.

From various threads... it would seem that more than a few people who OC do so with the WRONG holster. Their shirt flops out or whatever 'n then they're faced with a CC situation. For many... this is accidental... but I would caution to 'dress to the gun' always.

If you are right handed (as I am) I carry my wallet by habit in my right rear pocket. (Some don't, I know... but...) Reaching for your wallet and licenseon the same side as the weapon presents a dillema. (For you and the LEO).When driving, it's also the same side the seat belt buckles on.... effectivelydisarming you in the process and adding something else to 'reach for' in the same location as the weapon. In the presence of a LEO this could trigger an unwanted (Unintended) response.

I've OC'd a handgun inSW Arizona... beginning in 1966, as CC is rather impractical most times.'Never even heard the term 'open carry'. You were either heeled or you weren't. Concealed carry wasn't even a consideration.

Early on... it dawned on me that the old time trail cowboys (real ones... not in the movies) carried cross draw. It's much easier to mount up that way and barring a hammer spur loop... the pistol stays in the holster. It's also easier to draw when seated... as those ol' 7" Colts would end up in yer armpit 'fore you could clear leather with a 'strongside' draw. That is... providing the holster didn't come up with the gun.

That's the reason for 'tie-downs'. However... it's rather awkward climbin' in the saddle with a holster tied to your leg. Once mounted, the pistol isnear sideways or with a dropped buscadero 'is' sideways. The term 'slap leather' is not associated with actually drawing the pistol. It's the act of holding the holster with the free hand while doing so. Cross draw eliminates that problem as well. There's your 'old west' history for today.

Essentially... it's simple egonomics.

As applied to bein' heeled while driving... this cross draw method of carry not only makes sense, it's ergonomically practical. The weapon is not in the vicinty of your wallet or seatbelt buckle. It may be drawn while seated... and it's not 'bunched up' with the muzzle in the seat cushion. I also wear a separate gunbelt... which seems to have either 'gone outta style' or been overlooked... particularly among 'townies' 'n city people. (Yeah... I know... I carry on the half-cock notch... 'n I'm not gonna get into the 'why'...)

For the 'little gun' (Makarov 9x18mm) I use a simple open bucket on my pants belt. No retention feature (unneccesary) 'n that's also cross draw. That's my 'house gun' and sometimes CC gun.

There's a few 'fanatics on this forum who would argue that they wouldn't advise a LEO that they were armed... 'n cite the Constitutional reasons for not doing so. These types don't like any sort of authority whatever... 'n prob'ly never will. Laws may vary state to state... but the simple courtesy of informing LE that your are armed... or there is a weapon in the vehicle (indicate where) goes a long way. Nice to see some reasonable actions by members of this forum from time to time who prefer to use common sense over 'radical activism'.

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http://concealedcarryholsters.org/inside-waistband-holster/

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Steelviper wrote:

Shawn wrote:

Scared Shotless and Carnivore....Car carry is completely legal (you both understand this)...including AR15's under a blanket....but I wanted totalk about IWB a little more. Wasthe pistolcompletely hidden?

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Actually, if you look at the "definitions" of the statues, the AR15 under the blanket wouldn't fly, as it's got a 16" barrel (unless, I suppose, it's an SBR).

From the statues:
"(4) "Concealable firearm", any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, measured from the face of the bolt or standing breech;"

That being said, the statues don't really provide a uniform definition of what concealed means. Personally, I don't think untucked IWB should count as concealed, but I'd be paranoid about being charged like that guy in Cincinnati who got charged for concealed carry wearing a military-style flap holster. If somebody can call the cops about "man with gun", then it's not concealed.

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Hey Steel...hmm...thiswhat I see....?:

571.010 (8) "Firearm", any weapon that is designed or adapted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive.

571.030

(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or

571.030

Section 3. Subdivisions (1), (5), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section do not apply when the actor is transporting such weapons in a nonfunctioning state or in an unloaded state when ammunition is not readily accessible or when such weapons are not readily accessible. Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state. Subdivision (10) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply if the firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed by a person while traversing school premises for the purposes of transporting a student to or from school, or possessed by an adult for the purposes of facilitation of a school-sanctioned firearm-related event.

All firearms in the vehicle are ok concealed from common observation, even if they are not a "concealable firearm" if one is traveling peaceably through this state.

What do you think?

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Shawn wrote:

All firearms in the vehicle are ok concealed from common observation, even if they are not a "concealable firearm" if one is traveling peaceably through this state.

What do you think?

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What troubles me is the opening part of the sentence that you cite:
"Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as..."

It seems like the "Subdivision (1) doesn't apply" is joined with the concealable firearm part, the over 21 part, and the vehicle part, and then "or"'ed with all the other stuff (including the peaceable journey).

All of that would be moot if subdivision (1) specified that the crime was carrying a concealable firearm, but the subdivision is broader (just saying firearm, or any weapon really).

Honestly, I think the way it's interpreted by the law enforcement is consistent with your take on it (especially given the first answer on their FAQ). I was just noting that a strict reading of the law as written seems to exclude rifles, shotguns, and well, everything else.

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Steelviper wrote:

Shawn wrote:

All firearms in the vehicle are ok concealed from common observation, even if they are not a "concealable firearm" if one is traveling peaceably through this state.

What do you think?

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What troubles me is the opening part of the sentence that you cite:
"Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as..."

It seems like the "Subdivision (1) doesn't apply" is joined with the concealable firearm part, the over 21 part, and the vehicle part, and then "or"'ed with all the other stuff (including the peaceable journey).

All of that would be moot if subdivision (1) specified that the crime was carrying a concealable firearm, but the subdivision is broader (just saying firearm, or any weapon really).

Honestly, I think the way it's interpreted by the law enforcement is consistent with your take on it (especially given the first answer on their FAQ). I was just noting that a strict reading of the law as written seems to exclude rifles, shotguns, and well, everything else.

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Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply:

1. to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed.

2. nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game

3.or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control

4.or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state.

Does this help?

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I think what Shawn is trying to decipher for you is "(Continuous)" and "(Through)"

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I'm not trying to Attack Scared Shotless, and neither is Shawn, I'm just at the conclusion that he got lucky in this one occurance..



If that were me, I'da probably got thrown under the jail!!:lol:

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I spoke to my brother's attorney which is also a prosecutor with the County.

He said that it is unlawful to conceal a loaded shotgun, rifle, etc.

This law only applies to handguns & knives.

This is only hear say, so don't let ME have it. LOL

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Carnivore wrote:

I think what Shawn is trying to decipher for you is  "(Continuous)" and "(Through)"

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No, Shawn is arguing (successfully, I think), that the peaceable journey clause is "or"'ed on its own and is separate from the 21 and concealable part.

1. A and B and C and D (21, concealable, car, lawfully owned)
2. E and F (exposed projectile, lawfuk hunting)
3. G (your turf)
4. peaceable journey

And it's 1 OR 2 OR 3 OR 4. Only one of the numbered parts has to be true to make the whole statement true, but the whole numbered part (all of its "ands") has to be true. The way I was reading it before was more 1 AND (2 OR 3 OR 4), such that you had to satisfy the first part, but I think I was wrong.

It's confusing, but the concealable part of the sentence ends after the "so long as" bit.

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Well lets just hope the IWB+ XDis not in the WB and concealed on purpose or by accident when you are going to and fro from your transport. Get your CCW and be done with it. Why an IWB if you are not concealing? If you are in an OC area carry OC I love to do that, especially when my Lib neighbor is out in front of her house.

I was pulled over just this past weekend. I did not have my pistol on me at the time but when the officer asked me to step back into his car (cold out) Once inside he asked for my id. I gave him both of course and let him know I was not carrying at the time on my person, it was in the truck.

:shock: Nice little pause of silence there. My ticket was half of what it should have been since I was in a construction zone.

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Yes I do conceal to & from the vehicle.

Being as how I am concealing on my own property there is no problem there.

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So what do you do when you get where you are going? Remove gun lock in carand carry IWB around in your pants empty? Remove IWB and XD while sitting in a car. Sounds like a hastle to me. This will go away when you get the permit.

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Yes I understand that. Like I said in the OP, I am in the process of getting my CCW permit.

Until then, I will carry as often as possible.

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From Kevin Jamison's, a well known pro-2A atty in MO, website:
http://www.kljamisonlaw.com/updates.asp

Under the statute the right to carry loaded concealed handguns in one’s home is extended to one’s vehicle. This extended right is confined to persons 21 years old or older who lawfully possesses the firearm. This right only applies to “concealable” firearms (they mean handguns). It does NOT apply to rifles, carbines, or shotguns. It doesn’t have to make sense, it’s just the law.


As to wallet/carry issues, after I started carrying I got a business card/credit card wallet (not much bigger than a regular small business card wallet) in which I carry, in my front left pocket, my primary credit cards, my DL, CCW & insurance cards. Firstly it is more secure against pick pockets than back pocket carry (I still carry a regular wallet in my back pocket for store cc's, voter ID card, AAA card, etc.) but carry most of my cash (money clip) and major cc's in my front pocket, AND if I have to ID to an LEO, all the stuff I would need to present is in my front, weak side pocket.

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Section 3: of 571.030 states:

Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply:

1. to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed.

2. nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game

3.or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control

4.or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state.


Now...What does Subdivision 1 of subsection 1 say that does NOT apply: (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or


Now...What is the definition of firearm? No need to guess and neither will the court: RSMo 571.010 -

(8) "Firearm", any weapon that is designed or adapted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;

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1. to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed. Means 21 or older can have a firearm with a barrel less than 16" if lawfully possessed. This doesn't mean that the firearm must be concealed, it simply states that even if it were, there is no violation of the law, if lawfully possessed. The courts consider anything within reach "on or about his or her person" to be applicable to the "concealed" prohibition..this exemption makes it clear that for those 21 and over, if lawfully possessed, they may have it in the car loaded or unloaded. period.

2. nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game This means you can go bow-hunting and carry your pistol concealed and you need no license, as the law doesn't not apply.This exemption does not have an age restriction.

3.or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control This means you can carry concealeda knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use and again there is no age restriction mentioned.

4.or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state. No age restriction mentioned and also includes speeding, crashes and other applicable case law to its construction over the last 140 years or so.


Feel free to send this "in full" to Kevin or any county attorney for review.

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Steelviper wrote:

Carnivore wrote:

Didn't scared shotless type that the officer told him to keep his hands clear, and the officer would remove his wallet from his pocket? that causes me to understand that scared shotless was carrying in an IWB holster on his person on the same side or near where he wears his wallet, therefore if he has no CCW permit, and was wearing an IWB holster w/ a firearm holstered in it he was carrying concealed illegal..

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Ok. Let's recap.

1. Scared_shotless was carrying concealed.
2. It's a crime to carry concealed weapons.
3. #2 does not apply if shotless is:
a. over 21
b. in his car
c. so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed

So he was carry concealed, he doesn't have a permit, but since he's in his car and over 21 he's legal. Missouri CCW law is actually great that way.

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After the castle doctrine was expanded to include a citizens car. it makes a weapon not concealed till the moment the citizen steps out of his or her car.