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Thread: Gun SHow Loop Hole

  1. #1
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    Two proposals are being heard. 1. Private sellers would have a licensed Dealer run the background check at the gun show. That proposal resulted in a tie vote meaning no action.

    2. Have the State Police control and oversee the process. That proposal is being debate as of 12 noon.

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    So, now just walk out into the parking lot and do the exchange and you now have a parking lot loophole.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    http://hamptonroads.com/2009/01/virg...nshow-loophole

    Virginia panel won't recommend closing 'gun-show loophole'

    RICHMOND

    A proposal to recommend closing the so-called gun show loophole failed to pass a vote today by the Virginia State Crime Commission.

    The vote by the commission, an advisory body for the General Assembly, ended in a tie.

    The commission quickly turned to discuss a proposal to staff each gun show with a state trooper - who would watch for unlicensed dealers and provide voluntary checks - and to fund the service with a fee on the gun show's promoter.

    That recommendation passed 7-5.

    Virginia is one of 35 states that do not require criminal and mental-health background checks for gun purchases at shows, though dealers can do it voluntarily. Federally licensed dealers must conduct checks for sales at their stores.

    The commission drew a nearly full crowd, about a hundred people, with many on both sides of the debate.

    About 20 students from Longwood University in Farmville watched the meeting from the third and fourth rows, dressed in black with streamers around their necks in the colors of Virginia Tech. The group, which included family and friends of some of the victims of the April 16, 2007, shooting, planned to demonstrate in support of mandatory background checks by lying down outside after the meeting.

    The Virginia Tech shooter, who killed 32 people before he killed himself, did not buy his firearms from a gun show.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    http://www.wric.com/Global/story.asp?S=9665885

    Panel Deadlocks Over Gun Show Loophole

    Updated: Jan 13, 2009 01:40 PM

    RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - The Virginia State Crime Commission will not recommend closing the so-called gun-show loophole.

    Tuesday's 6-6 tie vote means any legislation filed to close the loophole - where private sellers at gun shows are not required to perform background checks on buyers - will not get the commission's seal of approval.

    The vote came after much political maneuvering.

    Commission Chairman David Albo held off the vote until Republican Del. Jerry Kilgore showed up at the meeting, more than an hour after it started. The tie vote was cast by Del. Ward Armstrong, a Democrat from a southwest Virginia district that favors guns.

    Republican leaders appointed Armstrong to the commission days ago to replace former Del. Brian Moran, a Democrat in favor of closing the loophole who resigned to run for governor.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    And an interesting article on the last minute shift on the commission:

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/vir...e_commiss.html

    Armstrong Shifts Crime Commission to the Right
    Tim Craig

    With Brian Moran's resignation from the House of Delegates, the Virginia Crime Commission appears to have shifted slightly to the right.

    House Minority Leader Ward L. Armstrong (D-Henry), who represents rural Southern Virginia, replaced Moran on the 13-member commission. The appointment puts considerable pressure on Armstrong, who has to balance the wishes of his constituents against his role as a statewide spokesman for his party, including its liberal base in Northern Virginia.

    In his first real test as a member, Armstrong voted today against having the crime commission recommend that the General Assembly close the so-called gun show loophole. Armstrong's vote resulted in the commission deadlocking on whether to make a recommendation. Moran had supported the closure of the loophole.

    According to Washington Post reporter Fredrick Kunkle, Armstrong noted a large gun show is held annually in his district. He said the show was important to the local economy. House Republicans are watching Armstrong's votes closely. They are vowing to field a serious candidate against him this year, noting his constituents overwhelmingly supported Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) over President-Elect Barack Obama in the Nov. 4 election.

  6. #6
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Including quotes from PVC:

    http://www.wvec.com/sharedcontent/AP...D95MGKBO1.html

    Va. commission deadlocks on 'gun-show loophole'

    01/13/2009

    By DENA POTTER / Associated Press

    The state crime commission deadlocked Tuesday on whether to support a bill that would force unlicensed sellers to do background checks on people who buy firearms at gun shows, drawing criticism from the loved ones of those killed at Virginia Tech.

    The 6-6 vote by the commission was largely symbolic and will not stop proponents from filing a bill to close the loophole in state law that allows private sellers at gun shows to avoid the background checks that commerical dealers are required to perform. It does mean that whatever bill is filed won't get the commission's seal of approval.

    Similar bills have failed for at least the past five years, but supporters vowed to continue fighting for them.

    Mike White, whose daughter Nicole died at Virginia Tech, said the indecision Tuesday reminded him of school officials' decision not to close campus after Seung-Hui Cho killed two students in a dormitory on April 16, 2007. Tech officials waited more than two hours to inform students of the shooting, and that e-mail came only minutes before Cho killed 30 others, including White, in a classroom building across campus.

    "Indecision is what caused the murder of my child, when they had two hours to close that school," he said. "Indecision today is what will cause convicted felons, mentally ill and others to walk into the next gun show and purchase a weapon in order to wreak more harm."

    The families and other supporters said were most concerned about political maneuvering before the vote.

    The tie vote was cast by Del. Ward Armstrong, a Democrat from a pro-gun southern Virginia district. House Speaker William Howell, a Republican, appointed Armstrong to the commission to replace former Del. Brian Moran, a Democrat in favor of closing the loophole who resigned to run for governor.

    Armstrong, the House minority leader, said he was upset that he was appointed to the commission only 72 hours before the vote.

    "We all know why, in part, this was done the way it was," Armstrong said.

    Armstrong said he was torn between the tragedy at Virginia Tech and the views of those in his district, where unemployment is about double the state average and the annual gun show is a huge economic boost.

    It was suggested that Armstrong abstain, but instead he voted against supporting the legislation.

    The commission instead voted 7-5 to recommend legislation that would require a fee from gun show promoters so the state can pay for a Virginia State Police trooper make sure sellers are properly licensed.

    Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, said his group would fight the fees.

    While he called the background checks vote a victory, Van Cleave said he doesn't think the bill stands a chance in the legislature even if it had the state crime commission's support.


    Cho did not buy the two guns he used at a gun show, but supporters of mandatory background checks say that's where the troubled student probably would have gone if licensed dealers had turned him down.

    "The fight over smoking, the fight over drunk driving, they took years," said Joe Samaha, whose daughter Reema was killed at Tech. "This might take years, but I think we are making progress."

    After the vote, supporters of the bill held a "lie-in" where about 35 people lay in the grass outside the capitol for three minutes, about the time it takes to run a background check.

    Courtney Edwards, 20, a sophomore at Longwood University, organized a group of students who came to Richmond for the protest. Edwards, Nicole White's best friend, said closing the gun-show loophole is now her life's goal.

    "I have already lost one of the most amazing people in my life due to gun violence, and I will do whatever it takes to prevent it from happening again," she said, her voice cracking.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    "Courtney Edwards, 20, a sophomore at Longwood University, organized a group of students who came to Richmond for the protest. Edwards, Nicole White's best friend, said closing the gun-show loophole is now her life's goal.

    "I have already lost one of the most amazing people in my life due to gun violence, and I will do whatever it takes to prevent it from happening again," she said, her voice cracking.
    "
    __________________________________________________ _________________

    What an extreme shame that taking personal responsibility for her own safety and that of her loved ones is not now #1 on her list.

    The government is not, cannot and will not be responsible for her (our) safety. It is unfathomable and unpardonable to me that even after this, she does not recognize the truth. Sad and frustrating.

    I will just have to redouble my efforts with others.

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Could somebody explain to me what they mean exactly with "unlicenced dealers", is there a certain maximum amount of firearms that they are allowed to sell or something because that comment confuses the hell out of me.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sleepless wrote:
    Could somebody explain to me what they mean exactly with "unlicenced dealers", is there a certain maximum amount of firearms that they are allowed to sell or something because that comment confuses the hell out of me.
    It is one of the lies/myths/distortions the antis perpetuate. Truth is not their basic tool.

    They refer to there being 40% (or other %) of the dealers at a gun show as not being licensed - OK, they are right but they neglect to tell you they are not gun dealers - they are selling T-shirts, belts, holsters, military gear etc.

    All gun dealers whether at a show or not must have FFLs.

    There is NO SUCH THING as an UNLICENSED GUN DEALER.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    TFred wrote:
    http://hamptonroads.com/2009/01/virg...nshow-loophole

    Virginia panel won't recommend closing 'gun-show loophole'

    ...

    Virginia is one of 35 states that do not require criminal and mental-health background checks for gun purchases at shows, though dealers can do it voluntarily. Federally licensed dealers must conduct checks for sales at their stores.


    Really? Dealers only conduct checks at their stores, but not at gun shows?



    Was this reporter ignorance, or politician stupidity?


  11. #11
    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Sleepless wrote:
    Could somebody explain to me what they mean exactly with "unlicenced dealers", is there a certain maximum amount of firearms that they are allowed to sell or something because that comment confuses the hell out of me.
    It is one of the lies/myths/distortions the antis perpetuate. Truth is not their basic tool.

    They refer to there being 40% (or other %) of the dealers at a gun show as not being licensed - OK, they are right but they neglect to tell you they are not gun dealers - they are selling T-shirts, belts, holsters, military gear etc.

    All gun dealers whether at a show or not must have FFLs.

    There is NO SUCH THING as an UNLICENSED GUN DEALER.

    Yata hey
    Atone of the Crime Commission meetings they were trying to define what a "Dealer" was, the federal standard issovague that they couldn't do it. The best description that they came up with is that "you willknow it when you see it". Also, the state would have a worse time than the Feds trying to legally define "Firearms Dealer".
    'Till the last landings made, and we stand unafraid, on a shore not mortal has seen,
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  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    streetdoc wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Sleepless wrote:
    Could somebody explain to me what they mean exactly with "unlicenced dealers", is there a certain maximum amount of firearms that they are allowed to sell or something because that comment confuses the hell out of me.
    It is one of the lies/myths/distortions the antis perpetuate. Truth is not their basic tool.

    They refer to there being 40% (or other %) of the dealers at a gun show as not being licensed - OK, they are right but they neglect to tell you they are not gun dealers - they are selling T-shirts, belts, holsters, military gear etc.

    All gun dealers whether at a show or not must have FFLs.

    There is NO SUCH THING as an UNLICENSED GUN DEALER.

    Yata hey
    Atone of the Crime Commission meetings they were trying to define what a "Dealer" was, the federal standard issovague that they couldn't do it. The best description that they came up with is that "you willknow it when you see it". Also, the state would have a worse time than the Feds trying to legally define "Firearms Dealer".
    An individual or a company engaged in a business pertaining to the manufacture of firearms and ammunition or the interstate and intrastate sale of firearms.

    The operative word to me and I think to ATF is the word "business."

    Good test on a state level might be if you are required to have a business license.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    They used to use an income standard, then they tried to define a dealer based on the absolute number of firearms (s)he sold each year. Now the law on this is really murky.

    Grapeshot is correct that there is no such thing as an unlicensed dealer. Either you are a dealer and have a license or you are not and you don't.

    In the face of what is going on with all of this it is interesting to note, that only a few years ago, the BATF&E purged a number of dealers from the system based on how few transactions they conducted. They raised the fees for the FFL significantly to run all the collectors and others out of the system, who had gotten an FFL just for their own use is shipping and receiving firearms. When those people had FFLs they had to keep records and do background calls unless they were doing a personal transaction and even then there was a record keeping requirement. Many of these people are the same people the antis are now upset about who can legally sell firearms without background checks and forms.
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