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Thread: schools

  1. #1
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    The cpl instructor told my wife that u can only drop your kid off&pick them up while carrying during school hours. He said if there are any after school activities like parent teacher conference's, school plays & ect. that u can nothave your firearm on school property or leave it in your vehicle while u attend theseschool events.

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    Your CPL instructor needs to review the law again, I'm afraid. The statutory school property restrictions on guns make no reference to hours of operation or seasons. They merely define the restricted zone (a school) and the fact that parking lots and drop-off areas are exempted from the restricted area when one is picking up or dropping off a child "from the school."

    Perhaps it would have better to state that the manner in which it is worded could leave room for debate on whether after school events qualify as picking up or dropping off "from the school." It probably is a good point to make since over-zealous "authorities" might try to use this to further limit our rights.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5pv...8-425o-amended

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    Good point. I know someone that attends church at a building used for a school during the week. This person has a cpl, and disarms and unloads in the vehicle they take to the church service.
    Is this illegal?

    Also, I have heard (some time ago) about federal legislation limiting "weapons" from even being near school grounds. Anyone know if these laws are in effect (or were they ever?)


    Thanks in advance

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    Well, your question raised an additional issue. There are restrictions in regard to carrying in a church, but it does not mention carrying at church services. This could become shaky ground if one points out the fact that many people consider a church to be composed of the gathering ofpeople rather than the building in which they gather (which is expressly used for church services, and is commonly known as "a church"). These restrictions are voided if those in charge of the church approve a person to carry a firearm.

    In regard to church services held in a school building, the law (as written) allows open carry by CPL holders on school property beyond the parking and drop-off areas. Many people who know their communities well fully expect that this would not stop school administrators or local LEOs from intervening in an attempt to keep pistols off local school grounds.

    In these instances and in the eyes of firearms law, it makes no difference whether the pistol is loaded or unloaded. It only makes a difference to the person who tries to use an unloaded weapon.

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    Hcidem wrote:
    In these instances and in the eyes of firearms law, it makes no difference whether the pistol is loaded or unloaded. It only makes a difference to the person who tries to use an unloaded weapon.
    Very good point. Seems the older I get, the more I become an anarchist...

  6. #6
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Coelacanth,

    I believe that the law to which you are referring is the Gun-Free School Zones Act. With a MI CPL, you are exempt from the prohibitions if the school is located within MI. If you are carrying out-of-state under the provision that the state you are in accepts your MI CPL, then you are NOT EXEMPT from the Gun-Free School Zones Act requirements.

    Perhaps most the egregious part of the law is that the area under the Gun-Free School Zones Act is not only the school property, but also includes those areas within 1,000 ft of the school property. Private property within this area is also exempt.

    Exemption for state permits can be found here: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

    Seriousness of the 1,000 ft provision can be found here: http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones.htm
    and here,
    http://www.reason.com/news/show/33279.html
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Thanks Dr. Todd, Yes, that is the law to which I referred. (GFSZA), as they call it, apparently. Thans too for the links. They paint a truly sad story indeed. Kinda leaves one without words (nice ones, that is).

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    One of my concerns about the Weapon Free School Zone pertains to the definition of the “Weapon free school zone” itself, particularly the inclusion of vehicles used for transportation. A case could be made that the 1000' rule would place a WFSZ bubble around any school bus, school van or vehicles used to transport students not only to school but any other 'educational' event, such as athletics. The intrusion of this bubble, if the firearm is not properly stowed, could result in a felony charge and conviction.

    Let's say you're walking OC downtown and a school bus stops and offloads students at the museum within 1000'. While you are carrying within your rights, you are now in possession of a firearm within a WFSZ, that is if you don't have a CPL. If you do have a CPL and are carrying concealed, you have also possibly violated the WFSZ. What are you to do?

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hff5x0v2yurvvsvvggu5tt55))/mileg.aspx?page=GetMCLDocument&objectname=mcl-750-237a

    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

    Think I should ask the MSP?

    Carry on

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I think you have very good questions and bring up a good point about the zone.

    Although this only POSSIBLY mitigates the chance of getting charges w/ this, the Fed's can't enforce state law and the Michigan LEO TYPICALLY don't enforce federal law (they do sometimes, though). If the Mich. leo enforce state law, the MI law limits the weapon free school zone to the property, not the 1,00 feet. Federal expands it to 1,000 feet.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    As for the no carry at a church, many folks may not realise the law states that you may not carry a concealed weapon upon a property or premises owned or operated by a church, mosque etc.

    This made my heart flutter when I realized that the bingo hall I often went to wasfrequently operated by a religious organization. The next time I went, I carried open and was asked not to bring my weapon back. It's a shame too, because I used to enjoy playing bingo there. Oh well, I never won anything anyway!

    Also, IIRC the parking lots of all victim zones are exempt from the no concealed carry rule.
    United we STAND!

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    We're continuing the discussion here, unless you want me to keep you posted on OCDO.

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36276

    Carry on.

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    JeffSayers wrote:
    As for the no carry at a church, many folks may not realise the law states that you may not carry a concealed weapon upon a property or premises owned or operated by a church, mosque etc.
    Added:

    Without written authorization from the church management.

    The church my wife and I attend back in MI gave me permission to conceal.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    I am doing a "report" on Education in todays Schools. And am going to the schools all day and questioning the kids (2nd-8th grade). As well as watching-questioning the teachers. I will be going to 10 schools. Can't say the names. But I am going to ALL types of schools and in area's that are tens of tousands a year to scchools that are free. Do to the people I work for I can only CC. And only the principle has to know.

    I will see if funding is being use RIGHT. And I also have family what is getting me in there classes. As well as the private schoolsI wentto. So no BS here.

    That being said I would love to ask the teachers there views on this! I will see what I can do. However I can quess there view based on there location!

  14. #14
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    M16a2 wrote:
    I am doing a "report" on Education in todays Schools. And am going to the schools all day and questioning the kids (2nd-8th grade). As well as watching-questioning the teachers. I will be going to 10 schools. Can't say the names. But I am going to ALL types of schools and in area's that are tens of tousands a year to scchools that are free. Do to the people I work for I can only CC. And only the principle has to know.

    I will see if funding is being use RIGHT. And I also have family what is getting me in there classes. As well as the private schoolsI wentto. So no BS here.

    That being said I would love to ask the teachers there views on this! I will see what I can do. However I can quess there view based on there location!
    Just out of curiosity, what are you judging them on? Please tell me that it's not their teaching of spelling and grammar.

    Ben

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    PilotPTK wrote:
    M16a2 wrote:
    I am doing a "report" on Education in todays Schools. And am going to the schools all day and questioning the kids (2nd-8th grade). As well as watching-questioning the teachers. I will be going to 10 schools. Can't say the names. But I am going to ALL types of schools and in area's that are tens of tousands a year to scchools that are free. Do to the people I work for I can only CC. And only the principle has to know.

    I will see if funding is being use RIGHT. And I also have family what is getting me in there classes. As well as the private schoolsI wentto. So no BS here.

    That being said I would love to ask the teachers there views on this! I will see what I can do. However I can quess there view based on there location!
    Just out of curiosity, what are you judging them on? Please tell me that it's not their teaching of spelling and grammar.

    Ben
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I am reporting on "how well the school spends there money" but we don't say that. We just say level of education. Because we know they will put me in front of there smartest kid.

    I is very hard to set a standard on what to compare them to. B/Cwe would like to look atEnglish,History,Math,Science.But in the same hrs of the day so schools skip history for Gym orMusic. And it gets worst by high school when public goes to auto-tech,cad,gym,dance, even sports. As I did a study atmany schools that removed history (one say 1yr) sokids could do a "Skill class" or if it is football season and history is after lunch skip it and go to practice for a game that day.

    Where the private schools say "every kid will be in a out of school event but not on school time". So when class are over you go to the event you are in. And it doesn't have to be sports!

    So it is unfair to report only on education in these schools! As some schools go more for "well rounded". So I can compare sports but not say dance if it isn't offered at all schools.


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    M16a2, I think what Pilot was making note of with the question was, as it appears that you are judging the schools. If that is correct, then you must make sure that you are without blemish. Make sure that all your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed. When testing the teacher, if you are not correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, you project an image of some one not as sharp as you would like.springerdave.

    ps. Sometimes i copy my writings to Word program and then do a spell-check and use the punctuation guides there.

    Edit for spelling et al.

  18. #18
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    springerdave wrote:
    M16a2, I think what Pilot was making note of with the question was, as it appears that you are judging the schools. If that is correct, then you must make sure that you are without blemish. Make sure that all your i's are dotted and your t's are crossed. When testing the teacher, if you are not correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, you project an image of some one not as sharp as you would like.springerdave.

    ps. Sometimes i copy my writings to Word program and then do a spell-check and use the punctuation guides there.

    Edit for spelling et al.
    Yes, I too think he was referring to your own spelling and grammatical error in your posts.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
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    M16a2, all of us have at one time or another have misspelled text and misused punctuation. I hope that no offense will be taken by you for my posts. None was meant. I and others would just like to have those representing our cause to appear as polished as possible. It only takes slightly more time to get it right. Thank you for your efforts.springerdave.

  20. #20
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    No offense was taken. I am member of MANY forums. Things said online don't mean much. I graduated from a major university and before that from top private schools.

    However in fairness I do have a problem when typing as I think much fast than I type.And I do many things at one time. I have 2 LCD screens on my home computer and my TV with 7.1 playing in the same room. As well as reading 2 or more forums at once or watching a video online and typing in a forum or two. Some time I type likeI am texting with thoughts rather than sentences. AndI was worst inEnglish.Best in History and Math. Onlytwo question wrong on the high school placement test for history.

    But the report is based onmy views and a pre-written test. So I can be dumb as a stick.




  21. #21
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    I would imagine that cc'ing at a school bus lot/garage, away from the school, as well as while driving a school bus, would fall under the no carry zone per my cpl license. I also am to understand that, with a cpl, I CAN OC on school property. I am now a sub bus driver. I can just about imagine what would happen if a kid gets to school and tells his teacher that the bus driver had a gun on his hip.... I think I will leave the 9mm in the safe under the seat of my van while working...

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