Gun goes off in Utah restroom, shatters toilet

Gordie · Jan 16, 2009

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AWDstylez wrote:

SFCRetired wrote:

OK, I'm not an expert on pistols, but I'm thinking the same scenario as Plaxico Burris; the pistol started dropping, he grabbed for it and hit the trigger. I'm also thinking that either it wasn't in the holster or wasn't properly secured by the holster.

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I agree.If you're wearing an IWB holster (99% of which have no retention devices) it's very easy (in fact nearly guaranteed)forthe gunto fall out when dropping your pants totake a deuce. I'll be honest, it happened to me the very first time I attempted it. Ever since then I unholster before my pants go anywhere. Everyone here is assuming he was OCing, which is highly unlikely. If he was using an IWB holster, the gun wouldn't have been dragging on the floor, it would be laying on his pants.

My IWB holster holds mygun when held upside down and being lightly shaken. A quality holster doesn't need retention devices to hold a gun under normal circumstances. Still, I'm very careful while in "compromising" positions to avoid embarrassing and potentially dangerous situations. Even if no discharge occurs, having it bounce under the stall divider and having to ask the guy next to you to return it would be a difficult situation indeed.

I hesitate to set my gun down for fear that I may forget it when I leave. I realize that not everyone will do this, but I know that the potential for me is there to "forget" that I set it down until after I've left. I can't tell you how many pairs of sunglasses I've lost this way.:uhoh:

marshaul · Jan 16, 2009

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AWDstylez wrote:

My money is on a 1911 with a lightened trigger (but it feels so good at the range) being carried cocked and "oops, saftey caught on the holster, but I thought it was locked".

No.

Most NDs happen Plaxico-style. A positively engaging thumb safety renders a 1911 probably safer than a gun with no external safeties if you're going to be juggling it like an NFL wide receiver. The single-action trigger doesn't nullify this, even lightened.

Obviously safety with any gun comes from between the ears, but the simple fact is that with guns with no external safety except on the trigger being so popular these days, most NDs are with this style of gun when somehow the trigger is nudged.

marshaul · Jan 16, 2009

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AWDstylez wrote:

I agree. If you're wearing an IWB holster (99% of which have no retention devices) it's very easy (in fact nearly guaranteed) for the gun to fall out when dropping your pants to take a deuce. I'll be honest, it happened to me the very first time I attempted it. Ever since then I unholster before my pants go anywhere. Everyone here is assuming he was OCing, which is highly unlikely. If he was using an IWB holster, the gun wouldn't have been dragging on the floor, it would be laying on his pants.

No.

I have a Blade-Tech IWB, and it holds my 1911 securely without any "active" retention devices.

I could do backflips if I wanted (or if my person was physically capable of doing so

), and I can certainly drop my pants to drop a load without also dropping my gun.

Guaranteed.

marshaul · Jan 16, 2009

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Hawkflyer wrote:

yale wrote:

Gordie wrote:

I also wonder what type of gun it was, most guns don't fire just by dropping them.

Click to expand...

I had a AD/ND after I dropped a cocked and locked Star BM 9mm. For those not familiar this is a spanish copy of the 1911 but chambered in 9mm and no grip safety. The gun fell from the hoster, hit the pavement barrel first and fired. Because of this I rarely carry this pistol anymore.

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No firing pin block. While no one should ever depend on mechanical devices for safety, in my view the lack of a pin block is part of what makes most pre 1970, 1911 design pistols only a secondary choice as a side arm. IF it is all you have ... well ...

Sorry, the Star is not a true 1911 clone. The internals are different. Specifically and most relevantly, they have long firing pins.

A properly maintained real 1911 will not fire when dropped.

A series 80 is not a 1911 as far as I am concerned. It's a series 80.

If you're really worried you can get a Wolff extra power firing pin spring and you'll have extra redundant safety.

Read the following:
http://yarchive.net/gun/pistol/1911_inertial_discharge.html

Hawkflyer · Jan 16, 2009

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marshaul wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

yale wrote:

Gordie wrote:

I also wonder what type of gun it was,most guns don't fire just by dropping them.

Click to expand...

I had a AD/ND after I dropped a cocked and locked Star BM 9mm. For those not familiar this is a spanish copy of the 1911 but chambered in 9mm and no grip safety. The gun fell from the hoster, hit the pavement barrel first and fired. Because of thisI rarely carry this pistol anymore.

Click to expand...

No firing pin block. While no one should ever depend on mechanical devices for safety, in my view the lack of a pin block is part of what makes most pre 1970, 1911 design pistols only a secondary choice as a side arm. IF it is all you have ... well ...

Click to expand...

Sorry, the Star is not a true 1911 clone. The internals are different. Specifically and most relevantly, they have long firing pins.

A properly maintained real 1911 will not fire when dropped.

A series 80 is not a 1911 as far as I am concerned. It's a series 80.

If you're really worried you can get a Wolff extra power firing pin spring and you'll have extra redundant safety.

Read the following:
http://yarchive.net/gun/pistol/1911_inertial_discharge.html

I don't disagree with your comments. I was in a hurry so you will just have to let the lack of precision in my comments go.

A lot of the firearms in my collection are from before 1968, and going back to before the turn of the century. I also have a few more recent. I only have 1 star I took in trade and I have never thought very highly of it. It is just not very well made. It is as you say internally different, but it does have an inertial firing pin.

I am aware of a lot of testing on muzzle drop discharge. The military said a long time ago that it could not happen, and the FBI Laboratory proved it could. I think it is a good bet that any inertial firing mechanism could be made to fire under the right conditions. While stronger springs might help, they can also reduce firing reliability.

I would still contend that a 1911 style handgun that is not equipped with a firing pin block should be a secondary choice for everyday carry. I have a lot of them, and I have a number of alternatives that are identical except for the inclusion of additional safety designs.

As I said I do not depend on mechanical devices for safety, but the firing pin block is specifically designed to prevent a discharge if the weapon is dropped on the muzzle. I have never dropped a handgun before, but that does not mean is could not happen.

In any case, there is no reason to carry a firearm that does not incorporate modern safety designs unless it is simply all you have or can afford.

Michigander · Jan 16, 2009

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Gordie wrote:

I also wonder what type of gun it was,most guns don't fire just by dropping them.

Most don't, but some do. Like my CZ which caused me to get shot in the leg.

I only carry my Sig anymore, and I've even taken the added measure of keeping the chamber empty unless I'm especially worried about the area I'm in. Makes it a moot point.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, pistol carriers, as a group, need to discuss more often whether or not to carry a round in the chamber, or perhaps alternatively what gun to carry. Many, or perhaps most individuals are very safe, but there are exceptions like these, and I'll bet this guy had no idea his gun wasn't drop safe. Luckily no one was killed in my case or that one, but both were stupid and preventable.

marshaul · Jan 16, 2009

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Hawkflyer wrote:

I don't disagree with your comments. I was in a hurry so you will just have to let the lack of precision in my comments go.

A lot of the firearms in my collection are from before 1968, and going back to before the turn of the century. I also have a few more recent. I only have 1 star I took in trade and I have never thought very highly of it. It is just not very well made. It is as you say internally different, but it does have an inertial firing pin.

I am aware of a lot of testing on muzzle drop discharge. The military said a long time ago that it could not happen, and the FBI Laboratory proved it could. I think it is a good bet that any inertial firing mechanism could be made to fire under the right conditions. While stronger springs might help, they can also reduce firing reliability.

I would still contend that a 1911 style handgun that is not equipped with a firing pin block should be a secondary choice for everyday carry. I have a lot of them, and I have a number of alternatives that are identical except for the inclusion of additional safety designs.

As I said I do not depend on mechanical devices for safety, but the firing pin block is specifically designed to prevent a discharge if the weapon is dropped on the muzzle. I have never dropped a handgun before, but that does not mean is could not happen.

In any case, there is no reason to carry a firearm that does not incorporate modern safety designs unless it is simply all you have or can afford.

I've read the results of a few other, more scientific tests, and the only way the FBI or anyone was ever able to get a 1911 to fire when dropped was either: from a ridiculous height; in Condition 3; with an absurdly weakened (often cut) firing pin spring; or more than one of the above. Oh, or being a Star.

Sure, it's possible for an extra-power firing pin spring to reduce ignition reliability, but, guess what, it's also possible for the firing pin stop mechanism to fail and jam the weapon. If anything this is a worse malfunction than having to manually cock and drop the hammer a second time. Both can happen, but both are unlikely -- in the case of the firing pin spring, as long as it's properly matched to a full-power mainspring you'll never have any problems if you keep your springs maintained; the firing pin spring wears faster than the mainspring so if you tune it right and it works it's not going to fail later.

I still contend that the firing pin stop is unnecessary. I personally would consider a 1911 without one to be a preferable carry weapon (unless perhaps you expect to run the gun with weakened springs :quirky).

If you don't mistreat the gun with extreme negligence, I contend that a non-series 80 is a safer weapon, due to less potential for mechanical failure.

ETA: If you do extremely neglect your weapon, or carry condition 3, all bets are off.

Hawkflyer · Jan 16, 2009

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marshaul wrote:

...SNIP
I've read the results of a few other, more scientific tests, and the only way the FBI or anyone was ever able to get a 1911 to fire when dropped was either: from a ridiculous height; in Condition 3; with an absurdly weakened (often cut) firing pin spring; or more than one of the above. Oh, or being a Star.

SNIP...

Actually, the tests were conducted as part of the testing of a number of different firearms related to the death of a sailor who was killed by dropping his issue sidearm on board ship near the end of WWII. Contrary to your opinion, the tests were quite scientific, and at that time the FBI Laboratory was (and to some still is) the best Laboratory in the world. In these tests they had two discharges in 500 drop tests from heights ranging from 4 to 10 feet of 1911 pistols onto hard surfaces. While this represents a small percentage, the goal is zero. You have not seen these test results because they were conducted as part of the investigation of a case and case results are never published.

However, Aberdeen proving grounds also did a lot of testing, some of which was done with the FBI Laboratory. In their tests, they did not have any discharges from throwing the 1911 onto the ground or dropping them on the ground, but the tests did not include intentional efforts to drop the weapon directly on the muzzle on a hard surface.

Colts and others have also conducted testing. Most of these test concluded that the likelihood of a discharge was slight, but they all acknowledged that the possibility exists. Since the results are mixed I choose not to carry a 1911 as my primary carry weapon and I still recommend others consider them as a second choice.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine, so we will have to agree to disagree.

marshaul · Jan 16, 2009

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I did not intend to suggest that any study was unscientific other than the one I myself linked to above.

rugergirl · Jan 17, 2009

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Well takes shooting the $%*& to a new level, and gives me one more reason to lean toward a shoulder holster.

mpg9999 · Jan 17, 2009

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SteveInAshand wrote:

2 Reasons to take your handgun out of holster when using a public restroom.

1) When dropping trow I always take my 45 out and lay it on the TP dispenser because I don't want anything even my Levis touching the germ laden nasty wet floor, :uhoh:.

2) I sat in the toilet at the local nation wide burger joint one day "doing the doo" , my attention was distracted to the stall next to me by an a loud " biolavial fricative"
( fart) and so I turned over to see a pair of pants down to the nasty floor from the underview screen partition next to me and I noticed a belt holstered Glock half laying on the nasty wet floor amongst a deflated pair of jeans.

Moral of the story: If there was an anti sitting in my place instead of me, the anti would have seen Joe fart bottom's gun. But If the anti was sitting next to me he would only see an empty holster and no gun.

I don't think any anti would call the cop's and say , "there is a man in the restroom with an empty holster", which would go out over the dispatch air as "a 5150 who is delusional" , .

If I'm carrying IWB, I remove the gun (still holstered), and then put it inside my dropped pants. I've read about people putting their gun on the tank or somewhere else then forgetting it. Tucked down inside my pants its out of view of any stall neigbors.

diesel556 · Jan 17, 2009

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Michigander wrote:

Gordie wrote:

I also wonder what type of gun it was,most guns don't fire just by dropping them.

Click to expand...

Most don't, but some do. Like my CZ which caused me to get shot in the leg.

Did you have an early model CZ without the firing pin block (pre 90's I believe)?

nofoa · Jan 18, 2009

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I've had my gun fall out of my holster while i was taking it off, now i remove the gun and unload it first.

deepdiver · Jan 18, 2009

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I don't know if it is a matter of habit, type of holster, body build or people carrying really heavy sidearms. Even with my .45 which weighs in at about 3lbs loaded with 14 rounds of 230 gr, whether IWB or OWB, I can drop trou to my knees and keep the holster vertical by using outward pressure of my knees. It is not the most comfortable position, but it certainly keeps my sidearm holstered, safe and above the prying eyes of a stall neighbor and keeps my clothing off the floor. It is certainly more comfortable to remove the sidearm from the holster, but I would rather not in a public restroom for a myriad of reasons including not wanting my sidearm (or anything else) touching any surface unnecessarily. Now maybe that's just me and partly the fact that I go out of my way to avoid having to sit down in a public restroom.

AWDstylez · Jan 18, 2009

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deepdiver wrote:

I don't know if it is a matter of habit, type of holster, body build or people carrying really heavy sidearms. Even with my .45 which weighs in at about 3lbs loaded with 14 rounds of 230 gr, whether IWB or OWB, I can drop trou to my knees and keep the holster vertical by using outward pressure of my knees. It is not the most comfortable position, but it certainly keeps my sidearm holstered, safe and above the prying eyes of a stall neighbor and keeps my clothing off the floor. It is certainly more comfortable to remove the sidearm from the holster, but I would rather not in a public restroom for a myriad of reasons including not wanting my sidearm (or anything else) touching any surface unnecessarily. Now maybe that's just me and partly the fact that I go out of my way to avoid having to sit down in a public restroom.

In my case it's baggy pants and a loose belt. I wear my normal (really worn and floppy) belt when carrying IWB. The gun is heavy for a sub-comp andvery top heavy in the holster. If it isn't supported against my body the belt will flip forward and dump the gun.

Anyone that can hang upside down while retaining their gun in a non-retention IWB holster has the holster set way way too tight. I'd love to see a draw from a holster that tight.

diesel556 · Jan 18, 2009

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AWDstylez wrote:

In my case it's baggy pants and a loose belt. I wear my normal (really worn and floppy) belt when carrying IWB. The gun is heavy for a sub-comp andvery top heavy in the holster. If it isn't supported against my body the belt will flip forward and dump the gun.

You need a new belt.

I had that happen with an old belt. The next day I ordered a gun belt from our friendly sponsor.

You could also keep your old belt, but add followers (a little super cheap strap) in front of your holster. That will keep it from sliding off the belt, and if you wish you could place it so that it keeps the belt from sliding out of the front belt loop.

AWDstylez · Jan 18, 2009

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diesel556 wrote:

AWDstylez wrote:

In my case it's baggy pants and a loose belt. I wear my normal (really worn and floppy) belt when carrying IWB. The gun is heavy for a sub-comp andvery top heavy in the holster. If it isn't supported against my body the belt will flip forward and dump the gun.

Click to expand...

You need a new belt.

I had that happen with an old belt. The next day I ordered a gun belt from our friendly sponsor.

You could also keep your old belt, but add followers (a little super cheap strap) in front of your holster. That will keep it from sliding off the belt, and if you wish you could place it so that it keeps the belt from sliding out of the front belt loop.

I do have a gun belt for my hip holster. I just can't justify wearing an uncomfortable belt with my IWB holster just so I can drop a duce without taking the gun out. lol

deepdiver · Jan 18, 2009

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AWDstylez wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

I don't know if it is a matter of habit, type of holster, body build or people carrying really heavy sidearms. Even with my .45 which weighs in at about 3lbs loaded with 14 rounds of 230 gr, whether IWB or OWB, I can drop trou to my knees and keep the holster vertical by using outward pressure of my knees. It is not the most comfortable position, but it certainly keeps my sidearm holstered, safe and above the prying eyes of a stall neighbor and keeps my clothing off the floor. It is certainly more comfortable to remove the sidearm from the holster, but I would rather not in a public restroom for a myriad of reasons including not wanting my sidearm (or anything else) touching any surface unnecessarily. Now maybe that's just me and partly the fact that I go out of my way to avoid having to sit down in a public restroom.

Click to expand...

In my case it's baggy pants and a loose belt. I wear my normal (really worn and floppy) belt when carrying IWB. The gun is heavy for a sub-comp andvery top heavy in the holster. If it isn't supported against my body the belt will flip forward and dump the gun.

Anyone that can hang upside down while retaining their gun in a non-retention IWB holster has the holster set way way too tight. I'd love to see a draw from a holster that tight.

I don't know where the hang upside down thing comes into this or the belt (unless you wear an IWB holster that attaches to the belt only which IMO presents a stability issue unless you are wearing a stiff gunbelt). It is pressure against the pants waistband that keep keeps my pants at my knees and my holster parallel to my lower leg, ie vertical to the ground. Unless someone requires a largish size waist or wore pants in a waist size far to large for them I don't see where baggy/large pants comes into it either. :question:

diesel556 · Jan 18, 2009

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AWDstylez wrote:

I do have a gun belt for my hip holster. I just can't justify wearing an uncomfortable belt with my IWB holster just so I can drop a duce without taking the gun out. lol

What about using followers with your flimsy belt?

AWDstylez · Jan 18, 2009

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diesel556 wrote:

AWDstylez wrote:

I do have a gun belt for my hip holster. I just can't justify wearing an uncomfortable belt with my IWB holster just so I can drop a duce without taking the gun out. lol

Click to expand...

What about using followers with your flimsy belt?

Yea I guess that wouldn't be a bad idea. I might have to pick some up. Thanks for the tip.

Gun goes off in Utah restroom, shatters toilet

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