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SCOTUS Rules on loosening to exclusionary rule

marshaul

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This is why Jefferson was right about the oligarchy of the Supreme Court.

Heller is practically the only good decision to come out of the current court. For shame. :cuss:
 

TechnoWeenie

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centsi wrote:
Citizen wrote:
centsi wrote:
SNIP and he could have waited for confirmation of the warrant which was in progress and assumingly would have taken no more than a few minutes.

Am I reading too much into this or could there be more than meets the eye here?

Could be. Could be.

Something interesting, though.

He asked for a copy of the warrant for confirmation? Why? Does he know or think there are errors in the system?

"For confirmation" is different than "I'm going to need a copy in a few minutes."
Exactly. And if it's standard procedure to ask for confirmation (and I don't think it is), then it should also be standard procedure to actually get that confirmation.


SOP is to confirm the warrant...Computer is only there to say theres a hard copy, hard copy is faxed for confirmation.



Now, every agency in the US just has to say 'well, our system said he had a warrant!' and poof, you have PC for a detention and (un)lawful arrest.
 

centsi

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TechnoWeenie wrote:
centsi wrote
Exactly. And if it's standard procedure to ask for confirmation (and I don't think it is), then it should also be standard procedure to actually get that confirmation.


SOP is to confirm the warrant...Computer is only there to say theres a hard copy, hard copy is faxed for confirmation.



Now, every agency in the US just has to say 'well, our system said he had a warrant!' and poof, you have PC for a detention and (un)lawful arrest.
Well there you have it. If they would have waited for confirmation, the whole incident would have been avoided. They didn't wait for it, raising issues of impropriety, and it resulted in a false arrest and charges.
 

ghostrider

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TechnoWeenie wrote:
centsi wrote:
Citizen wrote:
centsi wrote:
SNIP and he could have waited for confirmation of the warrant which was in progress and assumingly would have taken no more than a few minutes.

Am I reading too much into this or could there be more than meets the eye here?

Could be. Could be.

Something interesting, though.

He asked for a copy of the warrant for confirmation? Why? Does he know or think there are errors in the system?

"For confirmation" is different than "I'm going to need a copy in a few minutes."
Exactly. And if it's standard procedure to ask for confirmation (and I don't think it is), then it should also be standard procedure to actually get that confirmation.


SOP is to confirm the warrant...Computer is only there to say theres a hard copy, hard copy is faxed for confirmation.



Now, every agency in the US just has to say 'well, our system said he had a warrant!' and poof, you have PC for a detention and (un)lawful arrest.
Not to mention admissible "fruits of the poisonous tree".

This is how liberty dies. One piece at a time. Bit by bit.
 

Citizen

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Here is an interesting article about this case thatI just came across. By Radley Balko, now at Reason.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/131311.html

This part was interesting, too:

It's not a bad deal. In fact, it would be a good idea to get rid of qualified immunity for all government employees. They idea that getting a government paycheck somehow inoculates you from liability should you harm someone while on the job is antithetical to the principle of equality under the law. If anything, the government should be held to a higher standard.

I'd add, though, that opening police officers up to lawsuits probably isn't enough. There's an interesting dichotomy on the right when it comes to the police. The same philosophy that distrusts the government when it manifests itself as bureaucrats and regulators (a sentiment I share) seems to put an unhealthy amount of trust in the government employees we call police officers. The sentiment among many on the right is that the police need less supervision, less watch-dogging, and less second-guessing than other government emlpoyees. This is particularly odd given that, compared to your average bureaucrat, police officers are entrusted with an extraordinary amount of power, at least when it comes to the power they wield over the people with whom they come into contact. They are as susceptible to the same trappings of power as any scorned EPA regulator or grudge-bearing city council member, only they're also entrusted with the power to detain, use force, and kill.
 

marshaul

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Citizen wrote:
Here is an interesting article about this case that I just came across. By Radley Balko, now at Reason.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/131311.html

In response to the Court's ruling in Herring, University of Tennessee law professor Glenn Reynolds proposed a grand bargain to the law-and-order crowd: He'd give up the exclusionary rule, if they'd work with him to get rid of qualified immunity.

It's not a bad deal. In fact, it would be a good idea to get rid of qualified immunity for all government employees. They idea that getting a government paycheck somehow inoculates you from liability should you harm someone while on the job is antithetical to the principle of equality under the law. If anything, the government should be held to a higher standard.

proposed a grand bargain wrote:
THE OTHER DAY, JONAH GOLDBERG responded to my New York Post column on the Herring case:

One answer—really the only answer—you hear about why we should treat criminals with more respect is that it’s the only way to make government respect the rights of the innocent. I’m all for respecting the rights of the innocent, and I think police should be required to follow strict rules, have warrants, and all the rest. But I don’t see why cops who break the rules intentionally or unintentionally should be “punished” by having objectively guilty criminals let loose on society.

Well, this is the classic argument against the exclusionary rule, and it’s a pretty good one. The other classic argument against the exclusionary rule is that if you’re actually innocent — if the police search you unreasonably and don’t find anything — the rule does you no good because you’ve got nothing to exclude anyway.

These are good arguments and I’d be happy to scrap the exclusionary rule and return to the framing-era approach that put the constable at risk for personal liability whenever there was an unreasonable search or arrest, unless he had a warrant, in which case the magistrate who issued the warrant might be at risk if the warrant was improperly issued. But modern doctrines of official immunity — which are basically judge-made, and a result of “judicial activism” of the first order — make that impossible. There’s no constitutional basis for immunity on the part of police or their supervisors; it’s just something judges think is a good idea. Nonetheless, it’s not going anywhere — as part of my efforts to get something done about no-knock raids, I was recently told that, even in the Democratic Congress, it’s not going to be possible to do anything about official immunity.

Meanwhile, if you reward negligence, by letting cops who are negligent arrest people they’d otherwise be unable to, the cops — and, more importantly, their superiors, who might otherwise look bad if a guilty person is allowed to go free — wind up incentivized to be negligent. That increases the risk that innocent people will be subjected to unreasonable searches. In this imperfect world, the exclusionary rule is pretty much all we’ve got. But hey, if Jonah wants to join me in a campaign to get official immunity abolished or cut back, I’m ready.

I think there are two problems with that.

One, the exclusionary rule protects the innocent and guilty alike, whereas the "solution" proposed above wouldn't do much to protect the factually guilty -- I can't see a system where police are opened up to civil liability doing much good for anybody but white-collar criminals. And let's be real, with drug laws and the like (where after all the cops are "just doing their job", right? :quirky) it wouldn't be fair to make the cop civilly liable when the exclusionary rule could be applied, in most cases with no actual threat to society.

The "solution" proposed is fine for the law-and-order crowd, but some of us worry about our freedoms being taken away through ostensibly "legal" means as well. Once the law has declared us criminals for some or other malum prohibitum offense -- which happens not just to nonviolent drug offenders but also victims of the BATFE -- we might wish we had the exclusionary rule to salvage what little protection we have left from our 4th Amendment rights.

Which brings me to my final point: it has always seemed to me that the real purpose of the exclusionary rule is to enforce 4th Amendment protections to every person regardless of believed or "factual" guilt, which is an end in itself designed to reify an implicit function of the 4th Amendment -- that is, not only the protection of the "factually innocent", but also the protection of the guilty whose only crime is an arbitrary malum prohibitum offense, the guilt of which can only usually be proven by what would have once been considered unreasonable search procedures.

Perhaps this deal could be reasonably applied to the very specific acts of murder, rape, armed robbery, or other crimes where there is a tangible victim whose security or liberty was compromised -- as opposed to the state itself.
 

Citizen

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marshaul wrote:
Citizen wrote:
Here is an interesting article about this case that I just came across. By Radley Balko, now at Reason.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/131311.html

In response to the Court's ruling in Herring, University of Tennessee law professor Glenn Reynolds proposed a grand bargain to the law-and-order crowd: He'd give up the exclusionary rule, if they'd work with him to get rid of qualified immunity.

It's not a bad deal. In fact, it would be a good idea to get rid of qualified immunity for all government employees. They idea that getting a government paycheck somehow inoculates you from liability should you harm someone while on the job is antithetical to the principle of equality under the law. If anything, the government should be held to a higher standard.

proposed a grand bargain wrote:
THE OTHER DAY, JONAH GOLDBERG responded to my New York Post column on the Herring case:

One answer—really the only answer—you hear about why we should treat criminals with more respect is that it’s the only way to make government respect the rights of the innocent. I’m all for respecting the rights of the innocent, and I think police should be required to follow strict rules, have warrants, and all the rest. But I don’t see why cops who break the rules intentionally or unintentionally should be “punished” by having objectively guilty criminals let loose on society.

Well, this is the classic argument against the exclusionary rule, and it’s a pretty good one. The other classic argument against the exclusionary rule is that if you’re actually innocent — if the police search you unreasonably and don’t find anything — the rule does you no good because you’ve got nothing to exclude anyway.

These are good arguments and I’d be happy to scrap the exclusionary rule and return to the framing-era approach that put the constable at risk for personal liability whenever there was an unreasonable search or arrest, unless he had a warrant, in which case the magistrate who issued the warrant might be at risk if the warrant was improperly issued. But modern doctrines of official immunity — which are basically judge-made, and a result of “judicial activism” of the first order — make that impossible. There’s no constitutional basis for immunity on the part of police or their supervisors; it’s just something judges think is a good idea. Nonetheless, it’s not going anywhere — as part of my efforts to get something done about no-knock raids, I was recently told that, even in the Democratic Congress, it’s not going to be possible to do anything about official immunity.

Meanwhile, if you reward negligence, by letting cops who are negligent arrest people they’d otherwise be unable to, the cops — and, more importantly, their superiors, who might otherwise look bad if a guilty person is allowed to go free — wind up incentivized to be negligent. That increases the risk that innocent people will be subjected to unreasonable searches. In this imperfect world, the exclusionary rule is pretty much all we’ve got. But hey, if Jonah wants to join me in a campaign to get official immunity abolished or cut back, I’m ready.

I think there are two problems with that.

One, the exclusionary rule protects the innocent and guilty alike, whereas the "solution" proposed above wouldn't do much to protect the factually guilty -- I can't see a system where police are opened up to civil liability doing much good for anybody but white-collar criminals. And let's be real, with drug laws and the like (where after all the cops are "just doing their job", right? :quirky) it wouldn't be fair to make the cop civilly liable when the exclusionary rule could be applied, in most cases with no actual threat to society.

The "solution" proposed is fine for the law-and-order crowd, but some of us worry about our freedoms being taken away through ostensibly "legal" means as well. Once the law has declared us criminals for some or other malum prohibitum offense -- which happens not just to nonviolent drug offenders but also victims of the BATFE -- we might wish we had the exclusionary rule to salvage what little protection we have left from our 4th Amendment rights.

Which brings me to my final point: it has always seemed to me that the real purpose of the exclusionary rule is to enforce 4th Amendment protections to every person regardless of believed or "factual" guilt, which is an end in itself designed to reify an implicit function of the 4th Amendment -- that is, not only the protection of the "factually innocent", but also the protection of the guilty whose only crime is an arbitrary malum prohibitum offense, the guilt of which can only usually be proven by what would have once been considered unreasonable search procedures.

Perhaps this deal could be reasonably applied to the very specific acts of murder, rape, armed robbery, or other crimes where there is a tangible victim whose security or liberty was compromised -- as opposed to the state itself.

Wow!! Thank you, Marshaul!

I had forgotten all about the Framing-era liability for constables and magistrates. Sorry, Dr. Roots. I did read that part of your essay. It slipped my mind, kinda like forgetting to include Hawkflyer in the scotch.

I vaguely recall that Dr. Roots also reported that the person who made a false affidavit was also liable and/or held to account during the Framing era.
 

Citizen

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marshaul wrote:
SNIP...it has always seemed to me that the real purpose of the exclusionary rule is to enforce 4th Amendment protections...

Whynot read for yourself what the justices had in mind when they made the rule?

Not that you are wrong. You're not. Its just much richer to see what they had to say.

Here is the link to the case thatexpanded exclusion from 5A (forced confessions) to 4A. Weeks vs United States:

http://supreme.justia.com/us/232/383/case.html



Here is a quote from Weeks vs US that any rights-minded fella has got to love:

The efforts of the courts and their officials to bring the guilty to punishment, praiseworthy as they are, are not to be aided by the sacrifice of those great principles established be years of endeavor and suffering which have resulted in their embodiment in the fundamental law of the land.

God, but isn't that packed with meaning? "...established by years of endeavor and suffering..." (emphasis mine)
 

altajava

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ghostrider wrote:
Yep. But, I suppose it's okay because it didn't happen to me. :quirky
Hopefully this was ment as sarcasm. This isthe wrong attitude to take by a group of people walking around with a firearm on their hip where local LE doesn't know or doesn't care about the law.
 

ghostrider

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altajava wrote:
ghostrider wrote:
Yep. But, I suppose it's okay because it didn't happen to me. :quirky
Hopefully this was ment as sarcasm. This isthe wrong attitude to take by a group of people walking around with a firearm on their hip where local LE doesn't know or doesn't care about the law.
Hence the smiley.
 
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