Lancaster County LTCF Application

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OK, I'm game to play. I just moved to Lancaster and still have a valid VA CHP so I'm covered to conceal and carry in the car, but as you know I prefer OC anyway.

My question is this. Isn't the proof of residency requirement redundant and extra-legal since I've already stated my residence on the application and signed it under penalty of law? This was/is an issue in Fairfax VA and down there you could submit with no SSN or proof of residency and they had to issue due to it also being a "shall-issue" state. Anyone tried this yet up here?

Also, the Lancaster County "second form" is titled "INSTRUCTIONS FOR FIREARMS PERMIT APPLICANTS" and yet it requests further personal info. Sure it's splitting hairs but it's either instructions or additional info or both. They need to call it what it is. I think I'll call them them on that also so they know that their program is under scrutiny.

Thoughts?

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Proof of residency should not be a big burden. Any utility bill with your name and address will suffice. Even a hand written statement from your landlordshould do.

I am not familiar withLancaster's "INSTRUCTIONS FOR FIREARMS PERMIT APPLICANTS" but know the PA UFA states:

Form of application and content.-The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police.

Welcome to the Keystone State, BobCav.

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BobCav wrote:

OK, I'm game to play. I just moved to Lancaster and still have a valid VA CHP so I'm covered to conceal and carry in the car, but as you know I prefer OC anyway.

My question is this. Isn't the proof of residency requirement redundant and extra-legal since I've already stated my residence on the application and signed it under penalty of law? This was/is an issue in Fairfax VA and down there you could submit with no SSN or proof of residency and they had to issue due to it also being a "shall-issue" state. Anyone tried this yet up here?

Also, the Lancaster County "second form" is titled "INSTRUCTIONS FOR FIREARMS PERMIT APPLICANTS" and yet it requests further personal info. Sure it's splitting hairs but it's either instructions or additional info or both. They need to call it what it is. I think I'll call them them on that also so they know that their program is under scrutiny.

Thoughts?

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The LTCF application process, by state statute, bootstraps the state gun purchase statute requirements - if you do not have a governmental ID with your address on it, you will need some proof of your address like a utility bill - so let's say you walk in with your US passport and cable bill showing a Lancaster County address, you should be fine.

As I recall, the 2d form that the Sheriff of Lancaster uses asks the for the same info that the PSP form does - so I'm not sure that fighting that form is worth it.

You do not need a PA DL to apply for a LTCF from your Sheriff - the PSP form is clear that you need only provide it is available - there is no need to have PA DMV ixsued DL or ID. So I will be itnerested to hear if you are given grief for not yet getting PA DL - if so, try to politely stand your ground, get them to accept the application, and walk away and await your denial - if they deny, you can file for an immediate de novo appeal with the Lancaster County Court of common pleas - that's the process.

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Thanks ne1 and thanks Mike, that makes sense. Here's a copy of the second form. They just need to call it what it is, it's obviously more than just instructions.

Here's the Sheriff's page on firearms:
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/sheriffsoffice/cwp/view.asp?a=3&q=577251

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ALSO, make sure you do not provide your SSN - the PSP form notes now that this is optional - write somthing like "Not Disclosed, If Any" in that block.

if they give you any strange looks, be nice, but say somthing like, "I'm not sure what the misunderstanding is on the SSN issue - my friend Mike Stollenwerk sued the Sheriff of Lancaster over this a few years back and told me that this was all cleared up now and you all were on board with following federal privacy law. is the Sheriff available to speak with me on this issue??

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Mike wrote:

ALSO, make sure you do not provide your SSN - the PSP form notes now that this is optional - write somthing like "Not Disclosed, If Any" in that block.

if they give you any strange looks, be nice, but say somthing like, "I'm not sure what the misunderstanding is on the SSN issue - my friend Mike Stollenwerk sued the Sheriff of Lancaster over this a few years back and told me that this was all cleared up now and you all were on board with following federal privacy law. is the Sheriff available to speak with me on this issue??

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I saw that and the form does say "optional but will help prevent misidentification" and I had planned on "Not Disclosed, If Any"

LOL, I vaguely remember that incident and thought it would be a hoot to list you as one of my personal references. That should raise the Sheriff's eyebrows! If I could, please PM me your info!

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BobCav wrote:

Thanks ne1 and thanks Mike, that makes sense. Here's a copy of the second form. They just need to call it what it is, it's obviously more than just instructions.

Here's the Sheriff's page on firearms:
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/sheriffsoffice/cwp/view.asp?a=3&q=577251

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The form is not authorized - the part about PA ID or DL is flat wrong - hopefully you have not gotten a PA DL yet and can force them to take your passport!

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Inproved "instruction sheet":
[size=[quote]
[align=center]LANCASTER][/size][size= ][/size][size=COUNTY][/size][size= ][/size][size=SHERIFF][/size][size=’S OFFICE][/size][/align]
[align=center][size=[font="Times New Roman"]READ CAREFULLY! ][/size]INSTRUCTIONS FOR FIREARMS PERMIT APPLICANTS[/align]
[size=[font="Times New Roman"][/font]][/size]

[size=1. Applicant must be at least 21 years of age, and reside in ][/size][size=Lancaster][/size][size= ][/size][size=County][/size][size=. ][/size]Proof of age and residency must be furnished when application is submitted (for example, Pa. Drivers License or [size=Pa.][/size][size= Photo ID card). ][/size]A post office box number will NOT be accepted as a legal residence.

[size=[font="Times New Roman"]][/size][/font]

[size=2. Complete the ][/size][size=Lancaster][/size][size= ][/size][size=County][/size][size= application form. ][/size]Form must be filled out legibly and completely by typing or printing in black or blue ink or it may not be accepted. You must bring this application documents to the Sheriff’s Office personally. A payment of $25.00 CASH (or money order made payable to the Sheriff of Lancaster County) is required when submitting your application. Following an investigation, you will be notified by mail, as to whether your application has been approved or rejected. If rejected, a service fee of $6.00 will be withheld and you will receive a refund of $19.00. NOTICE: The furnishing of false information or offering false evidence of identity is a violation of Section 4904 (relating to unsworn falsification to authorities)

[align=center][/quote][/font][size= ][/size][/align]
[size=[font="Times New Roman"][/font]][/size]

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Mike wrote:

BobCav wrote:

Thanks ne1 and thanks Mike, that makes sense. Here's a copy of the second form. They just need to call it what it is, it's obviously more than just instructions.

Here's the Sheriff's page on firearms:
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/sheriffsoffice/cwp/view.asp?a=3&q=577251

Click to expand...

The form is not authorized - the part about PA ID or DL is flat wrong - hopefully you have not gotten a PA DL yet and can force them to take your passport!

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Good to know, thanks Mike! No PA DL yet so I'll prob just apply on Mon or Tues passport, lease in hand and copy of VA CHP.

Gonna apply with no DL, no proof of residency and no second form. Passport and copy of my VA CHP only. Should be all they need and all that's required by law.

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BobCav wrote:

Mike wrote:

BobCav wrote:

Thanks ne1 and thanks Mike, that makes sense. Here's a copy of the second form. They just need to call it what it is, it's obviously more than just instructions.

Here's the Sheriff's page on firearms:
http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/sheriffsoffice/cwp/view.asp?a=3&q=577251

Click to expand...

The form is not authorized - the part about PA ID or DL is flat wrong - hopefully you have not gotten a PA DL yet and can force them to take your passport!

Click to expand...

Good to know, thanks Mike! No PA DL yet so I'll prob just apply on Mon or Tues passport, lease in hand and copy of VA CHP.

Gonna apply with no DL, no proof of residency and no second form. Passport and copy of my VA CHP only. Should be all they need and all that's required by law.

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If you are now an actual resident of PA, no need to produce your VA CHP. Just bring in your passport and proof of residence - they have to do the PICS check with that. Levae the papers with them and file the application and nicely tell them to deny it if they let the judge sort it out. we need to make sure Sheriffs understand that actual residents of PA do not have to have PA ID or DL to apply for LTCFs.

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ok if what is written above is true, then is it possible for a non resident to obtain a permit LTCF from centre co without a state drivers license from the new state.!

I formally held a Pa non resident permit which expired, Danny Nau's ( great guy)office wrote me and asked thatI produce a florida drivers license and he would renew, since I still drive on another states license, can I use Florida residency documents, passport, old LTCF , and current Florida resident CCW for new permit (Pa LTCF)

sprat

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sprat wrote:

ok if what is written above is true, then is it possible for a non resident to obtain a permit LTCF from centre co without a state drivers license from the new state.!

I formally held a Pa non resident permit which expired, Danny Nau's ( great guy)office wrote me and asked thatI produce a florida drivers license and he would renew, since I still drive on another states license, can I use Florida residency documents, passport, old LTCF , and current Florida resident CCW for new permit (Pa LTCF)

sprat

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If it was me, and what I wanted was the LTCF and not to hassel them, I would call Sheriff Nau's office and tell them I don't have a DL. I would tell them what I do have and ask how I should proceed. My guess is they will fix you up if you do it this way.

JMHO. YMMV.

Ken

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CowboyKen wrote:

If it was me, and what I wanted was the LTCF and not to hassel them, I would call Sheriff Nau's office and tell them I don't have a DL. I would tell them what I do have and ask how I should proceed. My guess is they will fix you up if you do it this way.

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Bob wants to make a point - no DL needed to obtain a LTCF - just proper ID to pass a PICS check under PA statutes.

But regardless, Bob is now an actual resident of Lancaster County - under PA law, he must apply to his Sheriff.

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Mike wrote:

CowboyKen wrote:

If it was me, and what I wanted was the LTCF and not to hassel them, I would call Sheriff Nau's office and tell them I don't have a DL. I would tell them what I do have and ask how I should proceed. My guess is they will fix you up if you do it this way.

Click to expand...

Bob wants to make a point - no DL needed to obtain a LTCF - just proper ID to pass a PICS check under PA statutes.

But regardless, Bob is now an actual resident of Lancaster County - under PA law, he must apply to his Sheriff.

Click to expand...

Yes, and Bob can certainly go ahead and do that. But, it seemed to me thet sprat just wanted to get his LTCF renewed without having to get a new drivers license.

I was responding to sprat.

Ken

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Thanks Ken good suggestion

MikeI was kinda hoped you would have chimed in also, its on the same line of thinking

so much for hoping and wishing

sprat

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Exactly, I can afford to make my point since I do already have a VA and am applying for my FL and UT non-res also. Same as for us, they don't have to like the law, just obey it and if they want to add or delete things from the process, there's a legal way to do it through the legislature.

Thanks Mike and good comments everyone!

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BobCav wrote:

Exactly, I can afford to make my point since I do already have a VA and am applying for my FL and UT non-res also. Same as for us, they don't have to like the law, just obey it and if they want to add or delete things from the process, there's a legal way to do it through the legislature.

Thanks Mike and good comments everyone!

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On the proper ID thing, see http://www.acslpa.org/pa_uniform_firearms_act.htmand note how the Sherriff at Section 6109 is commanded by the legislature to follow Section 6111 procedures - 6111 lays out PA's ID to buy guns scheme and it basically is just like the federal minimum - govt. photo ID and other docs which together give you name, DOB, address, photo, and signature. So a passport and cox cable bill showing address is fine to buy a gun in PA from a dealer or apply for your LTCF from your sheriff - you need to give your DL number only if it available.