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Thread: Michigan Open Carry question

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    Since MI is an open carry state, what are the laws about carrying while on the water?

    I'm referring specifically on Lake St Clair, in Michigan waters only. Can I legally open carry while on my boat?

    I spend a lot of hours on the water in warmer weather when I am not likely to be wearing enough clothing to carry concealed and I've never seen this question addressed anywhere.

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    i dont know.....but honestly pirates on lake st. Clair?

    *green peace boarded a Canadian laker carrying coal in to Naticoke a few years
    ago*

    I am professional sailor(engineer aboard lake boats, in training) and just about
    every company says no firearms aboard.


    so you walleye fishing on those waters?

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    what are the laws about carrying while on the water?

    If I remember correctly (?????)...while the boat is in motion, the gun must be...unloaded and in a case. Once the boat has come to a complete stop, you may load the gun and carry. Given those peramiters, that leaves out trolling and drifting completely. I'm not really familiar with maritime regulations...someone have a more complete answer.

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    Here is the Michigan statute excerpt which addresses the type of loaded firearm one may carry in a sailboat or motorboat.

    750.227c Transporting or possessing loaded firearm in or upon vehicle; violation as misdemeanor; penalty; applicability to person violating MCL 312.10(1)(g).



    Sec. 227c.

    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227c

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    This is what I've found so far.


    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.227c Transporting or possessing loaded firearm in or upon vehicle; violation as misdemeanor; penalty; applicability to person violating MCL 312.10(1)(g).
    Sec. 227c.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
    (3) This section does not apply to a person who violates section 10(1)(g) of chapter II of Act No. 286 of the Public Acts of 1929, as amended, being section 312.10 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


    It seems that only long guns are restricted. I haven't found anything else yet...


    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Well, crap. Your post wasn't there a minute ago Hcidem!!
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

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    I might be "Quick Draw McGraw" on this one, but you underlined it much better.

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    Dono wrote:
    i dont know.....but honestly pirates on lake st. Clair?

    *green peace boarded a Canadian laker carrying coal in to Naticoke a few years
    ago*

    I am professional sailor(engineer aboard lake boats, in training) and just about
    every company says no firearms aboard.


    so you walleye fishing on those waters?
    I'd love to catch a walleye, darn good meal there, but they fear me way too much. Most of my fishing is for smallmouth bass.

    I'll do my best to stay out of the way of the lakers on the waters, normally the bass are not in the shipping channel until well into the warmer summer weather anyway.

    I doubt there are many pirates on LSC, with the exection of the many rum drinkers scattered around Muskamoot Bay on weekends

    My main curiosty would be with Border Patrol agents and the USCG. I've heard enough horror stories about the OPP and Canadian fishing reluations,border crossing regulations,not to mention those involving weapons in Canada, I don'teven want to go there figuratively or literally.

    Thanks to the rest of you for the links, I'll be reading those as well.

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    This question has come up before. This is a cut and past form some of the discussion. The opinions below are not mine but were from another member. This question involves both pistol/long guntransport laws and DNR law.


    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 227d.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Taken down.
    (b) Enclosed in a case.
    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982
    © 2007 Legislative Council, State of Michigan

    ORV-324.81133 Operation of ORV; prohibited acts

    k) While transporting on the vehicle a bow unless unstrung or encased, or a firearm (does not differentiate pistols) unless unloaded and securely encased, or equipped with and made inoperative by a manufactured key locked trigger housing mechanism.

    MCL 324.82126(1)(g).[/b]
    • A person shall not operate a snowmobile while transporting a firearm, unless unloaded in both barrel and magazine and securely encased.

    Member opinion:


    It is more difficult to say whether it is legal to carry concealed in a boat. Your CPL authorizes you to carry a concealed pistol anywhere in the state, “except as otherwise provided by law”. Michigan law, MCL 324.40111(2) states, “Except as otherwise provided in this part or in a department order authorized under section 40107, a person shall not transport or have in possession a firearm in or upon a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded … in a motorized boat.”

    Similar statutes outlaw the carrying of a loaded firearm in an ORV (MCL 324.81133) or in a snowmobile (MCL 324.82126(1). These statutes were designed to stop poachers] from shooting game from a motor vehicle, motor boat, ORV or snowmobile. But, their terms do not limit enforcement to that situation. [/b]

    [/b]The DNR has issued a written guidance to its officers not to enforce the above statutes against anyone with a Concealed Pistol License] unless the person is using the handgun to hunt from a motor vehicle, boat, ORV or snowmobile.[/b]

    This has not been formalized into a “department order” so it does not control anyone but Conservation Officers. There is no such barrier for any other peace officer. A police officer or deputy sheriff could arrest you for violation of the motor vehicle, motor boat, ORV or snowmobile statute. I believe that the carry concealed statute was intended to supersede these laws. But it did not do so explicitly. Hopefully the legislature will correct these contradictions.

    I knowthe OP was without CPL, however, according to the above, carrying a loaded pistol in or on car, motorcycle, boat and snowmobile, etc. is going to require a CPL. I don't see how the above can be clearer on the subject.

    Michigan we are not going to find a law that specificallystates OC is legal in or on a boat, snowmobile.

    In Michigan, motorcycles are considered vehicles; therefore, CPL is required to CC or OC, same as a car.At this time the only thing we have to go by is what the DNR stated.

    A hunting license is not required while transporting a firearm en route to or from a target, trap or skeet range, or target shooting area and there is no attempt to take game.

    At all times, rifles, shotguns, muzzleloading and other firearms and bows and arrows carried in or on any type of motor vehicle, including ORVs and snowmobiles, must be unloaded in both barrel and magazine, and either enclosed in a case, or unstrung, or carried in the trunk of a vehicle with a trunk. These rules apply whether your vehicle is parked, stopped, moving or is on private or public property. A firearm transported in a motor-propelled boat or sailboat must be unloaded in both barrel and magazine when the motor is operating or the boat is under sail and may not be loaded until the momentum of the boat has ceased. Firearms must be unloaded in the barrel, and all arrows must be in a quiver when a hunter is afield outside the legal hunting hours. Exception: These rules do not apply to pistols carried under authority of a concealed pistol license or properly carried under authority of a specific exception from the requirement of a concealed pistol license.

    A percussion cap muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the percussion cap is removed. A flintlock muzzleloading longarm is considered unloaded if the cock is left down and the pan is open. Black powder handguns must be transported as stated above.

    Member opinion: All hunting laws still apply to us unless stated otherwise. No exception here for a handgun and it plainly states ANY motor vehicle. IN or ON If you are ON a motorcycles, your firearm MUST be unloaded & cased unless you have a CPL.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    This question has come up before.* This is a cut and past form some of the discussion.* The opinions below are not mine but were from another member.* This question involves both pistol/long gun*transport laws and DNR law.

    *
    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    [font="times new roman"][size=3]Sec. 227d.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Taken down.
    (b) Enclosed in a case.
    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
    (2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982
    There. Fixed that for you.

    Also, An ORV is generally defined as a vehicle designed for land travel. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-road_vehicle

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    snip

    Member opinion: All hunting laws still apply to us unless stated otherwise. No exception here for a handgun and it plainly states ANY motor vehicle. IN or ON If you are ON a motorcycles, your firearm MUST be unloaded & cased unless you have a CPL.
    Whomever wrote this opinion clearly missed the noted exception for the pistol. As far as hunting rules go, I don't believe they can be enforced on the water for anything other than waterfowl. Something about squirrels/deer/turkey in the middle of a lake just doesn't jive for me for some reason...:? It is not legal to use any firearm which propels a single projectile to take waterfowl, and to use a pistol to do so would be ludicrous, anyway. Nevermind that weather permitting bathing suits means that it probably isn't duck season. It may be a good question to pose to the MSP, just for CYA, but I don't see anything enforceable restricting open carry on a boat.


    ETA: I suppose the concern would be whether carrying on the deck of a boat would be considered concealed, which is obviously illegal without a CPL.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
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    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    snip

    Member opinion: All hunting laws still apply to us unless stated otherwise. No exception here for a handgun and it plainly states ANY motor vehicle. IN or ON If you are ON a motorcycles, your firearm MUST be unloaded & cased unless you have a CPL.
    Whomever wrote this opinion clearly missed the noted exception for the pistol. As far as hunting rules go, I don't believe they can be enforced on the water for anything other than waterfowl. Something about squirrels/deer/turkey in the middle of a lake just doesn't jive for me for some reason...:? It is not legal to use any firearm which propels a single projectile to take waterfowl, and to use a pistol to do so would be ludicrous, anyway. Nevermind that weather permitting bathing suits means that it probably isn't duck season. It may be a good question to pose to the MSP, just for CYA, but I don't see anything enforceable restricting open carry on a boat.


    ETA: I suppose the concern would be whether carrying on the deck of a boat would be considered concealed, which is obviously illegal without a CPL.
    Deer ,Bear ,Elk ,moose , otter ,and beaver ?

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    Times two oops


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    taxwhat wrote:
    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    snip

    Member opinion: All hunting laws still apply to us unless stated otherwise. No exception here for a handgun and it plainly states ANY motor vehicle. IN or ON If you are ON a motorcycles, your firearm MUST be unloaded & cased unless you have a CPL.
    Whomever wrote this opinion clearly missed the noted exception for the pistol. As far as hunting rules go, I don't believe they can be enforced on the water for anything other than waterfowl. Something about squirrels/deer/turkey in the middle of a lake just doesn't jive for me for some reason...:? It is not legal to use any firearm which propels a single projectile to take waterfowl, and to use a pistol to do so would be ludicrous, anyway. Nevermind that weather permitting bathing suits means that it probably isn't duck season. It may be a good question to pose to the MSP, just for CYA, but I don't see anything enforceable restricting open carry on a boat.


    ETA: I suppose the concern would be whether carrying on the deck of a boat would be considered concealed, which is obviously illegal without a CPL.
    Deer ,Bear ,Elk ,moose , otter ,and beaver ?
    I'll give you otter and beaver (trapping) being water dwelling animals, but the time frame still puts a person outside lawful season. I maintain that hunting regs should not be enforceable.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
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    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Great info, thanks everyone. I should be covered once I have my CPL. Class is on Jan. 25th, if the State issues on time I should be OK, if I do decide to bring the gun with me.

    Those occasions will be rare and not the days I plan of fishing anywhere near the invisible Canadian border. I've heard enough horror stories about the MNR, the OPP and with the laws changing about crossing the border and what is and isn't considered "landing" in Canadaand bait restrictions ,it's just not worth catching a Canadian fish. I still don't understand if the fish know the border crossing laws, but that's a whole nudder can of worms

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    Also,

    324.40111

    (2) Except as otherwise provided in this part or in a department order authorized under section 40107, a person shall not transport or have in possession a firearm in or upon a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and enclosed in a case, carried in the trunk of a vehicle, or unloaded in a motorized boat.

    This is MCRGO's take on this, in pertinent part:

    It is more difficult to say whether it is legal to carry concealed in a boat. Your CPL authorizes you to carry a concealed pistol anywhere in the state, “except as otherwise provided by law”. Michigan law, MCL 324.40111(2) states, “Except as otherwise provided in this part or in a department order authorized under section 40107, a person shall not transport or have in possession a firearm in or upon a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded … in a motorized boat.” Similar statutes outlaw the carrying of a loaded firearm in an ORV (MCL 324.81133) or in a snowmobile (MCL 324.82126(1). These statutes were designed to stop poachers from shooting game from a motor vehicle, motor boat, ORV or snowmobile. But, their terms do not limit enforcement to that situation. The DNR has issued a written guidance to its officers not to enforce the above statutes against anyone with a Concealed Pistol License unless the person is using the handgun to hunt from a motor vehicle, boat, ORV or snowmobile. This has not been formalized into a “department order” so it does not control anyone but Conservation Officers. There is no such barrier for any other peace officer. A police officer or deputy sheriff could arrest you for violation of the motor vehicle, motor boat, ORV or snowmobile statute. I believe that the carry concealed statute was intended to supercede these laws. But it did not do so explicitly. Hopefully the legislature will correct these contradictions.

    [line]

    MCL 750.227d defines vehicles for land travel (other than a pistol) and does not apply here. IMHO, a CPL is required for OC and CC in your boat. And, as listed above, it appears the DNR will not enforce the statue (324.40111) if you have a CPL.

    Hope this helps Rugergirl and welcome to OCDO.

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    Welcome rugergirl

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    I was OCing on the water the other day while ice fishing. Guess I didn't have to worry about vehicle laws.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    Up here in the great white yonder when ice fishing you do have to worry about the vehicle laws, lol. yea, it gets that thick.

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    Off road is one thing, and I'll go that way everytime I get the chance, but off land, uh un, my truck is one of my kids, and very well loved

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    Michigan state borders extend out into the water of the lakes surrounding the state. Constitutional law and legislation state that one may carry for the lawful purpose of self defense, anywhere in the state, with some restrictions. Pistol free zones do not name bodies of water. Concealed carry laws do not name a boat as a vehicle upon which the carry of a pistol could be considered concealed. Legislation regulating open carry does not mention boats.

    750.227d
    has to do with vehicles designed for land travel, as seen above.

    750.227c mentions boats, and specifically exempts loaded pistols, while not saying anything about any form of license, or specific form of carry, as seen above.

    324.40111 Taking animal from in or upon vehicle; transporting or possessing firearm in or upon vehicle; transporting bow in or upon vehicle; written permission to hunt or discharge firearm.

    Sec. 40111.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this part or in a department order authorized under section 40107, a person shall not take an animal from in or upon a vehicle.

    (2) Except as otherwise provided in this part or in a department order authorized under section 40107, a person shall not transport or have in possession a firearm in or upon a vehicle, unless the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and enclosed in a case, carried in the trunk of a vehicle, or unloaded in a motorized boat.


    This law has to do with the taking of game. If it is read to mean that no person may carry or possess a loaded firearm while on a boat, it would be an unconstitutional prohibition against the use of firearms for the lawful purpose of self defense, akin to the D.C. gun ban, and must be amended or repealed.

    324.81133 This law applies to an ORV, which is defined in legislation as follows:(n) "ORV" or "vehicle" means a motor driven off-road recreation vehicle capable of cross-country travel without benefit of a road or trail, on or immediately over land, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain. ORV or vehicle includes, but is not limited to, a multitrack or multiwheel drive vehicle, an ATV, a motorcycle or related 2-wheel, 3-wheel, or 4-wheel vehicle, an amphibious machine, a ground effect air cushion vehicle, or other means of transportation deriving motive power from a source other than muscle or wind. ORV or vehicle does not include a registered snowmobile, a farm vehicle being used for farming, a vehicle used for military, fire, emergency, or law enforcement purposes, a vehicle owned and operated by a utility company or an oil or gas company when performing maintenance on its facilities or on property over which it has an easement, a construction or logging vehicle used in performance of its common function, or a registered aircraft.
    Water does not fit in the definition of terrain.

    324.82126
    specifically regulates snowmobiles.

    The DNR has issued a written guidance to its officers not to enforce the above statutes against anyone with a Concealed Pistol License] unless the person is using the handgun to hunt from a motor vehicle, boat, ORV or snowmobile.

    This has not been formalized into a “department order” so it does not control anyone but Conservation Officers. There is no such barrier for any other peace officer. A police officer or deputy sheriff could arrest you for violation of the motor vehicle, motor boat, ORV or snowmobile statute. I believe that the carry concealed statute was intended to supersede these laws. But it did not do so explicitly.

    The implication in this statement is that no person shall possess a loaded firearm on a boat, but that the DNR chooses not to enforce this against persons holding a CPL. Once again, if that is the case, it would be an unconstitutional ban on our right to self defense.

    If someone can point out to me that DNREP law can supercede our national and state constitutionally guaranteed right to self defense, and Michigan legislation allowing carry for the purpose of self defense, I'll concede that my opinion is wrong.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

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    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    That pretty much sums up what I thought.

    I wouldn't be as concerned with the DNR, as much as the USCG or Border Patrol and Homeland Security issues. Being as there is an international border in Lake St Clair, the Detroit River and St Clair river it seems that there may be a lot more regulations that I would need to be concerned with.

    By the time fishing season finally begins hubby and I should both have CPLs, but I'm not sure I want to test the law to find out. My main reason for carrying while fishing would be related to where I would be launching the boat. I think I may avoid a couple launch ramps for now and take the extra 10 minutes to drive to another ramp.

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    Federal regulations should not be more restrictive than state law, and if the USCG/Border Patrol show any concern, once they ascertain that you are a Michigan resident and are abiding by state law, they SHOULD let you go. Obviously, a CPL should help. The only thing I would worry about is crossing a border, like you said.

    You just joined, and have 25 posts. It looks like you are enjoying yourself here! Welcome to MOC.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Taurus850CIA wrote:
    Federal regulations should not be more restrictive than state law, and if the USCG/Border Patrol show any concern, once they ascertain that you are a Michigan resident and are abiding by state law, they SHOULD let you go. Obviously, a CPL should help. The only thing I would worry about is crossing a border, like you said.

    You just joined, and have 25 posts. It looks like you are enjoying yourself here! Welcome to MOC.
    Oops forgot to mention I'm kinda shy

    Thanks for the welcome.

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    Jeez! What is this a love connection thread.

    Just ask her if she wants to go fishin already

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