Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: National Parks located in UTAH

  1. #1
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    In light of the recent changes in the Regulations Restricting operable firearms within national parks--- What restrictions currently exist at Utah's National Parks with regard to the possession of a concealled operable firearm by a holder of a valid UTAH concealled Weapons permit within the confines of the Utah National parks and its buildings otherwise open to the public such as Visitors Centers and Restrooms?

    By my plain read of Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities: Possession of an otherwise legal firearm by a holder of a valid Utah Concealed Weapons permit would fall under the "OTHER LAWFUL ACTIVITY" exemption with regard to ANY National Park located in the State of UTAH.

    The above is a copy of the email I just sent to the email link at Bryce Canyon under their "contact us" link.

    I await a response.



    JoeSparky
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    63

    Post imported post

    JoeSparky wrote:
    In light of the recent changes in the Regulations Restricting operable firearms within national parks--- What restrictions currently exist at Utah's National Parks with regard to the possession of a concealled operable firearm by a holder of a valid UTAH concealled Weapons permit within the confines of the Utah National parks and its buildings otherwise open to the public such as Visitors Centers and Restrooms?

    By my plain read of Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities: Possession of an otherwise legal firearm by a holder of a valid Utah Concealed Weapons permit would fall under the "OTHER LAWFUL ACTIVITY" exemption with regard to ANY National Park located in the State of UTAH.

    The above is a copy of the email I just sent to the email link at Bryce Canyon under their "contact us" link.

    I await a response.



    JoeSparky
    no clue.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Heber, Utah, USA
    Posts
    173

    Post imported post

    I believe that on Jan 9, 2009 CCing National Parks is legal as long as CC is legal in the state the park is located in. I will try to find the actual law.

    Edit:

    Found the revised law from the DOI website. Basically it says the rules for CCing will reflect the state laws. So in Utah you should befine CCing as of Jan 9, 2009. (Assuming you have a CFP)

  4. #4
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    ainokea wrote:
    I believe that on Jan 9, 2009 CCing National Parks is legal as long as CC is legal in the state the park is located in. I will try to find the actual law.

    Edit:

    Found the revised law from the DOI website. Basically it says the rules for CCing will reflect the state laws. So in Utah you should befine CCing as of Jan 9, 2009. (Assuming you have a CFP)
    I understand this part... my question is I am hearing from several other sources that "CC'ing within ANY building in the National parks is STILL considered ILLEGAL.

    JoeSparky
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    478

    Post imported post

    930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.

    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—

    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

    (e)

    (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

    (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or
    (2) of subsection (d).

    (f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.

    (g) As used in this section:

    (1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.

    (2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.

    (3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.

    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.


    Now IANAL, But to me this reads that if you are are carrying for "other lawful purposes" then you are OK to carry in a Federal Building. If anyone knows of a different lawthat I should be aware of (or if I am justtotally misunderstanding this)let me know, but to me this really seems pretty straightfoward.


    [Edit] also it appears that if there isnt a sign posted at Each entrance most of this section is void anyways

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    63

    Post imported post

    Is this one of the changes that President Obama is going to review before allowing the law to go into affect?



  7. #7
    Regular Member colormered's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Cache county, Utah, USA
    Posts
    116

    Post imported post

    No, it's already gone into effect. How long he lets it continue remains to be seen.....

    ColorMeRed

  8. #8
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    JoeSparky wrote:
    In light of the recent changes in the Regulations Restricting operable firearms within national parks--- What restrictions currently exist at Utah's National Parks with regard to the possession of a concealled operable firearm by a holder of a valid UTAH concealled Weapons permit within the confines of the Utah National parks and its buildings otherwise open to the public such as Visitors Centers and Restrooms?

    By my plain read of Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities: Possession of an otherwise legal firearm by a holder of a valid Utah Concealed Weapons permit would fall under the "OTHER LAWFUL ACTIVITY" exemption with regard to ANY National Park located in the State of UTAH.

    The above is a copy of the email I just sent to the email link at Bryce Canyon under their "contact us" link.

    I await a response.



    JoeSparky
    The Response...

    Sir or Madam:

    The change in regulation was intended to allow the normal flow of traffic
    of persons carrying a concealed firearm with a valid CCW permit through the
    parks, but not into the facilities. In the preamble to the regulation
    change, it was noted that this new regulation was not intended to permit
    the carrying of concealed firearms into federal facilities and that 18 USC
    930 would still apply.

    The current interpretation by the office of policy and regulation
    interprets the lawful carrying of a concealed firearm not to be a lawful
    purpose, but a lawful priviledge. Therefore, carrying a firearm in a
    federal facility is still prohibited by 18 USC 930 by citizen with no other
    lawful purpose. They have also further ruled that federal facilities
    include only those structures where federal employees, volunteers and
    partners report to work. In essence, most restrooms would not be included
    in this definition.

    I would urge you not to attempt to carry your firearm into a federal
    facility as identified above. Also, be mindful of any private businesses
    (such as the Bryce Canyon Lodge, General Store, etc.) where the current
    owner/operator has posted signs prohibiting the possession of firearms. As
    each park in Utah is managed individually, I would caution that you look
    for any information posted on structures, or call ahead to obtain
    information from private businesses. Do not assume that because one lodge
    does not prohibit firearms that another lodge will not have that
    restriction in place.

    I hope this has answered your question.

    Dave Fox
    Chief Ranger
    Bryce Canyon National Park


    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    75

    Post imported post

    JoeSparky wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote:
    In light of the recent changes in the Regulations Restricting operable firearms within national parks--- What restrictions currently exist at Utah's National Parks with regard to the possession of a concealled operable firearm by a holder of a valid UTAH concealled Weapons permit within the confines of the Utah National parks and its buildings otherwise open to the public such as Visitors Centers and Restrooms?

    By my plain read of Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities: Possession of an otherwise legal firearm by a holder of a valid Utah Concealed Weapons permit would fall under the "OTHER LAWFUL ACTIVITY" exemption with regard to ANY National Park located in the State of UTAH.

    The above is a copy of the email I just sent to the email link at Bryce Canyon under their "contact us" link.

    I await a response.

    JoeSparky
    The Response...

    Sir or Madam:

    The change in regulation was intended to allow the normal flow of traffic
    of persons carrying a concealed firearm with a valid CCW permit through the
    parks, but not into the facilities. In the preamble to the regulation
    change, it was noted that this new regulation was not intended to permit
    the carrying of concealed firearms into federal facilities and that 18 USC
    930 would still apply.

    The current interpretation by the office of policy and regulation
    interprets the lawful carrying of a concealed firearm not to be a lawful
    purpose, but a lawful priviledge. Therefore, carrying a firearm in a
    federal facility is still prohibited by 18 USC 930 by citizen with no other
    lawful purpose. They have also further ruled that federal facilities
    include only those structures where federal employees, volunteers and
    partners report to work. In essence, most restrooms would not be included
    in this definition.

    I would urge you not to attempt to carry your firearm into a federal
    facility as identified above. Also, be mindful of any private businesses
    (such as the Bryce Canyon Lodge, General Store, etc.) where the current
    owner/operator has posted signs prohibiting the possession of firearms. As
    each park in Utah is managed individually, I would caution that you look
    for any information posted on structures, or call ahead to obtain
    information from private businesses. Do not assume that because one lodge
    does not prohibit firearms that another lodge will not have that
    restriction in place.

    I hope this has answered your question.

    Dave Fox
    Chief Ranger
    Bryce Canyon National Park
    Interestingly, in the DC v Heller decision, SCOTUS specifically defined self-defense as a "lawful purpose" and not a "lawful priviledge [sic]". See:

    "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."

    "United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes."

    "The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on anentire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense."

    "Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in thehome be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional."

    "We described the right protected by the Second Amendment as “‘bearing arms for a lawful purpose’”"

    "It is true it was the indictment that described the right as “bearing arms for a lawful purpose.” But, in explicit reference to the right described in the indictment, the Court stated that “The second amendment declares that it [i.e., the right of bearing arms for a lawful purpose] shall not be infringed.”"

    "We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns."

    Get the point yet?

    I understand that DoI and the NPS is asserting that concealed-carry isn't a "lawful purpose," but their assertion doesn't necessarily make it so. If you decide to be the test case, don't lose!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •