Felony Stop while OC'ing

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Just want to bring this buy the group and see if my rights were violated

I just got off shift from my Employer at 0001 on 15January2009 I stopped bythe summer wood apartment complex entering from the left side road to look at the property in order to put a bid in for security services. I exited the property then went back around to look at the amenties the seconad round around. As I left the complex a Metro Security officer stopped me and asked what I was doing. I asked him if he was a police officer he said "NO" I asked him if I was under arrest he said "NO" He then told me I was on private property so I left. I thought nothing of it until I was almost home andstopped by SL County Sherriff Department. I was ordered off my motorcycle and Handcuffed at gun point by the sheriff's department. I was told I was being held for Taylorsville Police Department. Taylorsville Arrived and took custody of me Handcuffing me again after SL County released me. I was questioned by J Pierce of TVPD as to what I was doing at summer wood I told him.

Apparently the security officer told Taylorsville I brandished a firearm told the security officer to F@#% off and was verbaly abusive to the security officer.

For this My firearm was conficated and I was cited for Disorderly Conduct they told me my firearm was being kept for evidence and safe keeping. I was released and went home on my motorcycle.

The following day I was called by officer J Pierce and told my charges were dropped and I could pick up my firearm on Monday

Now this caused problems with my employer Embarrsed me in front of my neighbors and caused me time off work since I have to use my firearm for my job

This was due to a security officer who turned a small incident to a all out ATL because he saw my open carried firearm which is legal I do have my CFP and did nothing wrong

I never used profanity at the guard I never touched my firearm at anytime and left after he stated I was on private property

Can I hold TVPD liable or Metro Security liable

Also TVPD needs to be briefed on Open Carry laws he did not know it was legal

Thanks

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Why do you all bitch on here when you freakin' get harassed for OCing? Whether it's your right or not, people freak out when you openly carry a gun, unless your a cop, military, federal agent...blah blah...I empathize with you in regards to the security douche bag who completely blew everything out of proportion. He obviously had a stick up his ass, if you say what you said to be true, and I have no reason to doubt you then maybe you should look into doing something about him falsely accusing you...But, then it's his world against yours and all the other happy horse shit...I'm not trying to start a war here, cuz it never gets anywhere...But it just amazes me, when people rant and rave about being harassed while OCing...You have a CCW. Would this have happened if you CC'd? I don't know, but damn, expect harassment, your carrying a freakin' gun...For the world to see...This isn't the wild west anymore.

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glock10mm wrote:

Why do you all bitch on here when you freakin' get harassed for OCing?...

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Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude....

glock10mm wrote:

...But it just amazes me, when people rant and rave about being harassed while OCing...

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You seriously can't see a valid frustration for being "harassed" while doing anything that is considered to be "lawful" in this country?

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glock10mm wrote:

Why do you all bitch on here when you freakin' get harassed for OCing? Whether it's your right or not, people freak out when you openly carry a gun, unless your a cop, military, federal agent...blah blah...I empathize with you in regards to the security douche bag who completely blew everything out of proportion. He obviously had a stick up his ass, if you say what you said to be true, and I have no reason to doubt you then maybe you should look into doing something about him falsely accusing you...But, then it's his world against yours and all the other happy horse @#$%...I'm not trying to start a war here, cuz it never gets anywhere...But it just amazes me, when people rant and rave about being harassed while OCing...You have a CCW. Would this have happened if you CC'd? I don't know, but damn, expect harassment, your carrying a freakin' gun...For the world to see...This isn't the wild west anymore.

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-1

Why would anyone join and contribute to a comment board that is dedicated to OC if he is so opposed to people being able to go about their legal business in peace?

If YOU were to get harassed just for walking down the street with a tattoo visible, or drinking a soda, or holding hands with someone of a different race, or doing ANYTHING else that is perfectly legal would you tolerate it?

Now, frankly, I think the proper thing to do when confronted by a security guard on private property at 0100 is to explain your presence and conduct. I happen to think there are FAR better times to show up unannounced to do inspections.

But that is besides the point and if the guard made any false statements to the police, he ought to be held to account legally. If he did not make any false statements, but the police assumed that OC was equal to brandishing then they need to be held to account, legally.

But a man legally OCing should not expect to have to tolerate any more BS from society or cops or anyone else than should a man legally holding hands with his girlfriend or wife of a different race, or even a couple of homosexuals holding hands. Don't like it, don't look. But don't arrest for it.

Charles

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What are you going to hold someone liable for?

It wouldn't be county or TVille. They are just responding on a crime as it was reported to them.

You missed work and you were embarrassed? Good luck on doing anything with that...we're full up enough of frivolous lawsuits and, IMO, this would just be adding to that pile.

If anyone is at fault it's both you and the rent-a-cop. He probably blew the situation out of proportion and it sounded as if you were a bit confrontational.



I'd chalk this one up as a learning experience and drive on.

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GenkiSudo wrote:

You missed work and you were embarrassed?  Good luck on doing anything with that...we're full up enough of frivolous lawsuits and, IMO, this would just be adding to that pile.

If anyone is at fault it's...you... it sounded as if you were a bit confrontational.

 

I'd chalk this one up as a learning experience and drive on.

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-1000

Most. Fail. Advice. Ever.

The OPs civil rights were violated and he was basically assaulted (you know, gunpoint and all that).

Not cool. State apologists take a hike.

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GenkiSudo wrote:

...They are just responding on a crime as it was reported to them...

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Which crime is that? False Report or OC?

utbagpiper wrote:

...If YOU were to get harassed just for walking down the street with a tattoo visible, or drinking a soda, or holding hands with someone of a different race, or doing ANYTHING else that is perfectly legal would you tolerate it?

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...But a man legally OCing should not expect to have to tolerate any more BS from society or cops or anyone else than should a man legally holding hands with his girlfriend or wife of a different race, or even a couple of homosexuals holding hands. Don't like it, don't look. But don't arrest for it...

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Exactly.

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Agreed. Not cool (both the OP's treatment and the first OCDO responses). If the police lied about the call they should be called on it. Same for the security guard.

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marshaul wrote:

GenkiSudo wrote:

You missed work and you were embarrassed? Good luck on doing anything with that...we're full up enough of frivolous lawsuits and, IMO, this would just be adding to that pile.

If anyone is at fault it's...you... it sounded as if you were a bit confrontational.



I'd chalk this one up as a learning experience and drive on.

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-1000

Most. Fail. Advice. Ever.

The OPs civil rights were violated and he was basically assaulted (you know, gunpoint and all that).

Not cool. State apologists take a hike.

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Actually I'm not an apologist, I'm all for OC and will fault LEO if I feel they are at fault...which I don't feel is the case here.

There are protocol that ALL departments use for felony stops. He obviously met those criteria and was therefore approached at gunpoint. His civil rights were not violated and he was in no way assaulted.

If I tell the police that someone threatened me and brandished they damn sure better take it as fact and act accordingly. They can figure out later if it was legitimate....which is what it seems like they did.



I'm all for OCing.....I'm ex military and will be damned if someone tries to take away my gun rights.

But I'm not for people OCing and being idiots looking for a confrontation....not saying this applies to the OP but it does apply to quite a few folks I've seen on here.

I'm busy at work so forgive the format of the post....I would like to write more but get a few seconds here and there to post up.

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ProtectedBy9mm wrote:

GenkiSudo wrote:

...They are just responding on a crime as it was reported to them...

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Which crime is that? False Report or OC?

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It doesn't matter if it's a false report....they didn't know that when they went out on the call. They address the situation as it's presented to them.....if I see someone walking down the street who matched the description of a suspect who just gunned down 3 women, I'll damn sure take him down at gunpoint and figure it out AFTER he has been cuffed and the situation is stable.

County responded to information from TVille that this person brandished a weapon after being verbally abusive. TVPD wasn't on scene and neither was County....they have to go on the complaintants information that this is what happened. After that the deputy/officer can figure out the situation or charges are pressed and it's taken to court.

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Ok, I'm hearin' ya bro:

What I'm trying to figure out is: Every time I OC, is it your advice that I should call the Police if someone confronts me about my gun?

Operator- "911, what is your emergency?"
Me-"Well ma'am, I am OCing my weapon, legally - and it seems it concerned this guy standing in line behind me-.."
Operator-"Okay..."
Me-"Well, i just wanted to call you guys first and let you know whats going on just in case you get a MWAG call in my area."
Operator-"We appreciate that!"
Me-"No problem, ya'll have a great night."
Operator-"Buh-bye."

is that about it??

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Guilty until proven innocent, right guys? :?

To glock10mm and GenkiSudo... If you feel like letting the police trample your rights, and put your life in danger, I'm cool with that. But where's the love?

Why do you all bitch on here when you freakin' get harassed for OCing? ...You have a CCW. Would this have happened if you CC'd?

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Why do you bitch about people that OC? It is not a crime.Ourmethod of carrydoes not affect you. Having a concealed firearm permit is like having a driver's license. He has a driver's license, should he never walk again? I mean after all, if everybody drove then nobody would be struck in crosswalks anymore, right?

What are you going to hold someone liable for? It wouldn't be county or TVille. They are just responding on a crime as it was reported to them.

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If someone pointed a loaded GLOCK at you, wouldn't you be a little upset? I know that if I pointed my GLOCK at someone without a valid reason, I would certainly expect to be charged with aggravated assault. That is what thissheriff did. You can't just go around pointing loaded pistols at people just because you think that they are dangerous. If any crime took place, it was the security guard providing false info tothe police.

gunsfreak4791, you need to start by requesting copies of the call to the police, radio traffic, email chatter between dispatchers and officers, anything that Salt Lake County and Taylorsville Police use to communicate. Only then will you know the truth of what the responding officers were told.

If the security guard told them the truth, and maybe he was just reporting "suspicious activity", then the cops took it way too far. But if he lied to them and said that you were acting a fool, then it is his word against yours. However, I doubt this is the case. You said they dropped the charge, and you firearm will be returned promptly.

This leads me to believe that the officers have nothing against you, like the security guards call about you waving a gun. They may have realized that they over reacted. Who knows, maybe they talked to somebody that has had contact with TJ, or another Open Carrier, and they were informed that we do not take these issues lightly.

If you like to be harassed, held at gunpoint, arrested, and have your property seized, then take the advice of our anti-gun crowd. Hide your rights under your shirt, and let the man step all over you.That is more convenient, right?

You have the right to find out what happened. I suggest you do so. After you have all the facts, then you can decide if action needs to be taken.

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And you guys still aren't picking up what I'm putting down....lemme try again.



Protected....I'm not saying that at all. You shouldn't need to.

Unfortunately calls come in and the only information the deputy or officer gets is what the complaintant tells them. They're going in blind and the information they get is that there is an aggressive male who just brandished a firearm at a security guard. There is no way for LEO to tell if the complaintant is right, wrong, crazy or mistaken so they have to take precautions as if it did happen exactly as the complaintant said.

Therefore there is protocol that they have to follow. In a stolen vehicle....felony stop.Woman was just raped at gunpointand you're in the vehicle that was said to be involved....felony stop.

After the situation is safe....which means cuffed and placed under arrest for the time being in a felony stop...the officer can figure out what's going on from your side.





SGT Jensen....it's not within your scope to be able to legally point a weapon at a civilian willy nilly. Are you really trying to use that as an argument? This is getting beyond silly now. Yes officers can point their weapons at someone they think is dangerous....it's their job. Either they sort it out later or it goes to court where the judge or jury sorts it.



That's the problem with some folks here....they're quick to jump on the side of the "victim" without even thinking logically about the other side (LEO in this case). It's those times that a LEOassumes that it's really nothing that he/she loses their life.



If the OP thinks his rights were violated....by all means do your research. It's my opinion and can pretty much guarantee that this was well within protocol for a felony stop. You don't think it's right contact the Sheriff and TV's Chief of Police and inform them that you don't think their criteria for a felony stop is justified. Don't let it stop here if you think you're wronged....more power to you. I just think that deputy was well within his right.

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utbagpiper wrote:

glock10mm wrote:

Why do you all bitch on here when you freakin' get harassed for OCing? Whether it's your right or not, people freak out when you openly carry a gun, unless your a cop, military, federal agent...blah blah...I empathize with you in regards to the security douche bag who completely blew everything out of proportion. He obviously had a stick up his ass, if you say what you said to be true, and I have no reason to doubt you then maybe you should look into doing something about him falsely accusing you...But, then it's his world against yours and all the other happy horse @#$%...I'm not trying to start a war here, cuz it never gets anywhere...But it just amazes me, when people rant and rave about being harassed while OCing...You have a CCW. Would this have happened if you CC'd? I don't know, but damn, expect harassment, your carrying a freakin' gun...For the world to see...This isn't the wild west anymore.

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-1

Why would anyone join and contribute to a comment board that is dedicated to OC if he is so opposed to people being able to go about their legal business in peace?

If YOU were to get harassed just for walking down the street with a tattoo visible, or drinking a soda, or holding hands with someone of a different race, or doing ANYTHING else that is perfectly legal would you tolerate it?

Now, frankly, I think the proper thing to do when confronted by a security guard on private property at 0100 is to explain your presence and conduct. I happen to think there are FAR better times to show up unannounced to do inspections.

But that is besides the point and if the guard made any false statements to the police, he ought to be held to account legally. If he did not make any false statements, but the police assumed that OC was equal to brandishing then they need to be held to account, legally.

But a man legally OCing should not expect to have to tolerate any more BS from society or cops or anyone else than should a man legally holding hands with his girlfriend or wife of a different race, or even a couple of homosexuals holding hands. Don't like it, don't look. But don't arrest for it.

Charles

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so what your saying is if I were to walk down the street in full KKK uniform, which is my right to do so, I shouldn't expect to get harassed? LOL, dude your a fuckin' idiot. It's your right to Oc, no shit, we all get that...But I'm sick of all the ******* threads in here about you all bitching while, getting kicked out of here or there or being stopped here or there, I can pull up about 8 threads right now...You openly carry, whether it's legal or not, your GONNA GET HARASSED. WHY? CUZ YOUR ******* CARRYING A GUN FOR THE PUBLIC TO SEE...AND GUNS SCARE PEOPLE, EDUCATED OR UNEDUCATED ABOUT THE LAWS...CARRY OPEN, IT IS YOUR RIGHT, JUST STOP WHINING LIKE A LITTLE GIRL WHEN YOU GET HARASSED....JESUS...

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To: glock10mm

So political correctness to the point of suppressing constitutional rights is just fine with you.

If the moderator applied the same standard to your post that you apply to the original poster's actions then your post would be deleted and you would be banned.

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gunsfreak4791 wrote:

Just want to bring this buy the group and see if my rights were violated

I just got off shift from my Employer at 0001 on 15January2009 I stopped bythe summer wood apartment complex entering from the left side road to look at the property in order to put a bid in for security services. I exited the property then went back around to look at the amenties the seconad round around. As I left the complex a Metro Security officer stopped me and asked what I was doing. I asked him if he was a police officer he said "NO" I asked him if I was under arrest he said "NO" He then told me I was on private property so I left. I thought nothing of it until I was almost home andstopped by SL County Sherriff Department. I was ordered off my motorcycle and Handcuffed at gun point by the sheriff's department. I was told I was being held for Taylorsville Police Department. Taylorsville Arrived and took custody of me Handcuffing me again after SL County released me. I was questioned by J Pierce of TVPD as to what I was doing at summer wood I told him.

Apparently the security officer told Taylorsville I brandished a firearm told the security officer to F@#% off and was verbaly abusive to the security officer.

For this My firearm was conficated and I was cited for Disorderly Conduct they told me my firearm was being kept for evidence and safe keeping. I was released and went home on my motorcycle.

The following day I was called by officer J Pierce and told my charges were dropped and I could pick up my firearm on Monday

Now this caused problems with my employer Embarrsed me in front of my neighbors and caused me time off work since I have to use my firearm for my job

This was due to a security officer who turned a small incident to a all out ATL because he saw my open carried firearm which is legal I do have my CFP and did nothing wrong

I never used profanity at the guard I never touched my firearm at anytime and left after he stated I was on private property

Can I hold TVPD liable or Metro Security liable

Also TVPD needs to be briefed on Open Carry laws he did not know it was legal

Thanks

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Despite comments to the contrary, you should see what video and call information is available with FOIA requests. If I read this correctly, you got called on by a guard who is working for a company that you are preparing to bid against for work?

Depending upon who is lying in this instance, there are several outcomes possible.

1) You. (no, I do not believe you are lying, but that is one scenario)
If you are not relating events correctly, you may have been approached appropriately.

2) Guard.
If the guard is lying, and you were simply carrying legally and not drawing your firearm, he is likely guilty of placing a false 911 call.

3) TV PD.
For the method of contact, the PD will likely need a reasonable belief that you are a danger to them during the stop. Absent this information, it sure looks like they were quite heavy-handed, but since they got an actual call, I think we can discount this part. Get the 911 call, and any officer video or audio recordings.

Bottom line? The most likely of the above is #2. The 911 call will clear up who said what. Any video from the premises where the contact with the guard took place may support either you, or the 911 call as accurate.

Since ianal, you might wish to contact one for actual legal advice, especially given that you may be a party to a competitive bid against a person who may have made a false report to police against you.

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glock10mm wrote:

Why do you all bitch on here when you freakin' get harassed for OCing? Whether it's your right or not, people freak out when you openly carry a gun, unless your a cop, military, federal agent...blah blah...I empathize with you in regards to the security douche bag who completely blew everything out of proportion. He obviously had a stick up his ass, if you say what you said to be true, and I have no reason to doubt you then maybe you should look into doing something about him falsely accusing you...But, then it's his world against yours and all the other happy horse @#$%...I'm not trying to start a war here, cuz it never gets anywhere...But it just amazes me, when people rant and rave about being harassed while OCing...You have a CCW. Would this have happened if you CC'd? I don't know, but damn, expect harassment, your carrying a freakin' gun...For the world to see...This isn't the wild west anymore.

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Never mind.

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glock10mm wrote:

...so what your saying is if I were to walk down the street in full KKK uniform, which is my right to do so, I shouldn't expect to get harassed?...

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Not by LEOs, CORRECT.

With this particular scenario i'm, sure NONE of us agree with: But, yes, they have the right to assembly and speech. I absolutely don't agree with their message. but guess what, they have that right. Im sure the average citizen will scold them in public, just as i expect to be for OC, but not by LE.

GenkiSudo wrote:

... Unfortunately calls come in and the only information the deputy or officer gets is what the complaintant tells them. They're going in blind and the information they get is that there is an aggressive male who just brandished a firearm at a security guard. There is no way for LEO to tell if the complaintant is right, wrong, crazy or mistaken so they have to take precautions as if it did happen exactly as the complaintant said....

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Okay -
This, i understand. They put their lives on the line everyday. i got that, AND i respect that 100%.

I have half a mind to set up a meeting between us OCers and some of the county offices, ASK them what they would have us do while OCing. HOW we can avoid getting Glocks pointed at us (certain OCers..).
There HAS to be a calm median we can all agree to. Maybe we make a phone call to the local PD letting them know " I am going out with my gun in this area" @#$%, maybe after a couple hundred calls per day from OCers notifying them of their plan to OC that day will bug them enough to put out a internal memo or newsletter.

THIS is why i offered the scenario of calling in dispatch after an encounter with a non-LEO while OCing. Okay, maybe I was being %5 sarcastic.. but it SHOULD work. It will get the idea in their heads that they are WASTING time regulating a LEGAL action.

I agree that WE all bitch about these instances: I want resolve.

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GenkiSudo wrote:

SGT Jensen....it's not within your scope to be able to legally point a weapon at a civilian willy nilly. Are you really trying to use that as an argument?

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No, but you are.

GenkiSudo wrote:

It doesn't matter if it's a false report....they didn't know that when they went out on the call. They address the situation as it's presented to them.....if I see someone walking down the street who matched the description of a suspect who just gunned down 3 women, I'll damn sure take him down at gunpoint and figure it out AFTER he has been cuffed and the situation is stable.

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This above post has me curious, are you involved in law enforcement? I sure hope not.

GenkiSudo wrote:

This is getting beyond silly now. Yes officers can point their weapons at someone they think is dangerous....it's their job. Either they sort it out later or it goes to court where the judge or jury sorts it.

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Since when can officers just go around pointing weapons at anyone they deem dangerous? Is that the job of the police, to point guns at people? I have been told by a police officerthat my driving is dangerous, shouldhe have pointed a gun at me?

Being a cop does not give one a free pass when it comes to firearms. I understand that our society has been conditioned to believe just that, andI believethatneeds to be fixed. So I ask again, would you like a cop to shove a GLOCK in your face simply because I called them and said you were dangerous?

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This is the first Incident where I have ever been been held at gun point. For the most part I have great relations with the police and the public.

The reason for my post was to get feedback as to different views as to what happened and ways I should proceed.

I to like most have served my country in the United States Army.

I have never had any criminal charges or engaged in criminal activity only minor speeding tickets.

I plan on creating a FOIA request and a Gramma Request and checking with legal council as to if my rights were violated and legal action should be followed.

My jobwhere I work had to be notified of the charges that were dropped. I had to write statements to my department of the actions of Taylorsville took prior to the charges being dropped.

I was embarssed by the whole thing since it took place in my neighborhood where I own my house and my kids go to school with (4) Kids

No crime took place at that apartment complex the security officer from Metro Security over reacted and called police.

I open carry my firearm with great respect to the law and the public. I would glady assist anyone in trouble or in need.

Again I thank each poster that posted so far gives me a fair and balanced view to how others outside the group view this

On the lighter side of this I now know how TJ Felt with granite school district and WVCPD. except he got to keep his firearm