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Thread: Library of Virginia?

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    From VCDL Lobby Day, I went across the street to the Library of Virginia for lunch today. They have an awesome little "hole in the wall" (almost literally) deli just off the lobby.

    As I went in the front doors, I couldn't help but notice their little sign, pictured below.

    Isn't this a public building?

    TFred


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    Who was the idiot that made-up that sign? Might as well put one up saying "No Naughty Stuff in the Library".

    As long as your gun is not "illegal"...I guess you're within the law.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Mayday wrote:
    Who was the idiot that made-up that sign? Might as well put one up saying "No Naughty Stuff in the Library".

    As long as your gun is not "illegal"...I guess you're within the law.
    It's the "or other weapons" that concerns me. Legal guns are obviously "other weapons".

    The question is, does preemption apply to the Library of Virginia? If so, then someone needs some educating. If not, then someone needs some legislating!

    TFred


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    I go there often for research at least once a week. I've never seen that sign before. Of course I am not doing anything illegal or carrying anything illegal at the time.

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    The sign has been there for at leasta fewyears. I open carry there fairly regularly. It is just a tricky, bureacratic sign. Almost meaningless. First of all, your gun is not an "illegal gun". Secondly, localities and entitiesmay lawfully ban "other weapons". Pre-emption appliesonly to firearms.

    Virginia USED to have a "Concealed Weapons Permit", but it was changed to a "concealede HANDGUNPermit

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    The sign clearly (imho)excludes legal firearms. If the intention of the sign was to prohibit all firearms, there would be no point inspecifying illegal ones and all other weapons. If it is meant to prohibit all guns,it should read: No guns or other weapons permitted.


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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    IANAL but I read it to mean you can carry legal guns. You cannot carry illegal guns or any other weapons. If they did not want any weapons in the place, then they would have made a sign that said no weapons permitted. The sign clearly seperates guns from other types of weapons.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    So at best, it's just confusing enough to dissuade people who are not acutely aware of their rights from carrying in the library. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. As close to the line as they can get and still be within the letter of the law.

    I am not an English teacher, nor a lawyer, but I do read specifications for a living, and to me, it describes two types of items: "illegal guns", which includes all the various types of firearms that are illegal, and "other weapons of any kind", which includes any weapon that is not an "illegal gun". I think the concept of "are allowed" is simple enough, and as a native English speaker, I read this sign, and I honestly believe it is telling me that I am not allowed to bring any gun into the building.

    This is worse than the National Park rule change which requires your firearm to be concealed, loaded and operable, in order to be legal!

    Why isn't there a law which requires proper English!?

    TFred

    ETAdd and clarify.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    ...SNIP
    I am not an English teacher, nor a lawyer,
    SNIP...
    Neither was the person who wrote the sign.

    IF it is a public facility where weapons are not otherwise prohibited, Ignore it if you are from out of town. If you live in Richmond please work on having the sign removed because ti it not legit. We can start writing out reps from out here in the hinterlands.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
    The sign has been there for at leasta fewyears. I open carry there fairly regularly. It is just a tricky, bureacratic sign. Almost meaningless. First of all, your gun is not an "illegal gun". Secondly, localities and entitiesmay lawfully ban "other weapons". Pre-emption appliesonly to firearms.

    Virginia USED to have a "Concealed Weapons Permit", but it was changed to a "Concealed HANDGUNPermit
    The language clearly leaves something to be desired. I first saw the small, almost hidden sign years ago. Nonetheless, open carry is not a problem at the Library of Virginia.

    The Capitol Police patrol and are responsible for the Library of Virginia. As we all know, they are among the better informed among law enforcement

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
    The Capitol Police patrol and are responsible for the Library of Virginia. As we all know, they are among the better informed among law enforcement
    Aaah the Capital Police again - looks like its time for another letter to the Chief.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Personally, I think this sign is pretty good. Perhaps it could be more clear but to me it reads that legal guns are allowed. Otherwise the word 'illegal' would be pointless.

    MUCH better to have this than to have an invalid 'no guns' sign!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    GWRedDragon wrote:
    Personally, I think this sign is pretty good. Perhaps it could be more clear but to me it reads that legal guns are allowed. Otherwise the word 'illegal' would be pointless.

    MUCH better to have this than to have an invalid 'no guns' sign!
    Neither one is acceptable. The impression in this case to the uninitiated is that guns aren't allowed = color of law.

    Either we have state preemption or we do not. It does not come in varying degrees.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    GWRedDragon wrote:
    Personally, I think this sign is pretty good. Perhaps it could be more clear but to me it reads that legal guns are allowed. Otherwise the word 'illegal' would be pointless.

    MUCH better to have this than to have an invalid 'no guns' sign!
    Neither one is acceptable. The impression in this case to the uninitiated is that guns aren't allowed = color of law.

    Either we have state preemption or we do not. It does not come in varying degrees.

    Yata hey
    Exactly my thoughts. No matter what you think it says, if a LEO tells you that they think it means you shouldn't have carried a gun in the Library, then you are going to be in trouble, and as noted, this is unacceptable. Preemption was not put in place to allow confusing signs and policies, it was put in place to eliminate them!

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Letter requesting removal of the illegal sign can be seen at
    http://vagrapeshot.multiply.com/

    Click on Library of Virginia, click on each photo & zoom to read text better.

    I will advise of the Chief's response.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  16. #16
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Cool, it sounds like you have already established a cordial correspondence with the Chief. I'm anxious to hear about the reply!

    TFred


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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    ...SNIP
    you have already established a cordial correspondence with the Chief.
    SNIP...
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    you have already established a cordial correspondence with the Chief.
    Have definitely established a relationship that probably begins with "Oh no, not him again" when she sees the return address.

    Did get a response and desired correction from previous correspondence - even though her reply was intentionally vague and generic.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    GWRedDragon wrote:
    Personally, I think this sign is pretty good. Perhaps it could be more clear but to me it reads that legal guns are allowed. Otherwise the word 'illegal' would be pointless.

    MUCH better to have this than to have an invalid 'no guns' sign!
    The question is, what is an "illegal" gun? An unregistered post-86 machine gun in civilian hands? No, the gun is legal, it's just illegal for you to possess it. A gun with the S/N scratched off? Nope. It's illegal for you to scratch/deface the S/N or possess one with the S/N in such condition.

    So...what the heck is an "illegal gun"? If it means a firearm that is illegal to possess, isn't that already against the law? Why would the law not apply inside the library?

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    nova wrote:
    If it means a firearm that is illegal to possess, isn't that already against the law? Why would the law not apply inside the library?
    Yes, I think that is what it means. The purpose of such a sign follows the same reasoning as many other 'no guns' signs: it is put up in an attempt to discourage people from illegally carrying.

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    IMO - the intent of this sign is simply to restrict legally carrying citizens from entering under color of law.

    We can argue the verbiage as long as we will but it does not change the effect.

    Such signs as this do nothing to stop the criminal; neither do they protect the staff nor the public - it must go.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    TFred wrote:
    It's the "or other weapons" that concerns me. Legal guns are obviously "other weapons".
    No, it's "No illegal guns or other (illegal) weapons".

    Still, it was obviously written by someone with a.... loose grasp of the English language.

    .... or a political agenda.

    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Wouldn't make any difference anyway. If it is a public library, you cannot be restricted from carrying there. At least that's my understanding of the law. Please correct me if I am mistaken.





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    The effort is appreciated, but the head of the Capitol Police has no control over that sign. Her officers provide police services to the library, that's all. The Libraries management controls the premises (and sign) - and they are the ones to whom letters should be addressed.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
    The effort is appreciated, but the head of the Capitol Police has no control over that sign. Her officers provide police services to the library, that's all. The Libraries management controls the premises (and sign) - and they are the ones to whom letters should be addressed.
    The letter may generate some dialog from that end but your point is well taken. Will try to locate head honcho of library this evening.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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