Library of Virginia?

TFred · Jan 19, 2009

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From VCDL Lobby Day, I went across the street to the Library of Virginia for lunch today. They have an awesome little "hole in the wall" (almost literally) deli just off the lobby.

As I went in the front doors, I couldn't help but notice their little sign, pictured below.

Isn't this a public building?

TFred

Mayday · Jan 19, 2009

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Who was the idiot that made-up that sign? Might as well put one up saying "No Naughty Stuff in the Library".

As long as your gun is not "illegal"...I guess you're within the law.

TFred · Jan 19, 2009

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Mayday wrote:

Who was the idiot that made-up that sign? Might as well put one up saying "No Naughty Stuff in the Library".

As long as your gun is not "illegal"...I guess you're within the law.

It's the "or other weapons" that concerns me. Legal guns are obviously "other weapons".

The question is, does preemption apply to the Library of Virginia? If so, then someone needs some educating. If not, then someone needs some legislating!

TFred

kenny · Jan 19, 2009

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I go there often for research at least once a week. I've never seen that sign before. Of course I am not doing anything illegal or carrying anything illegal at the time.

SicSemperTyrannis · Jan 19, 2009

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The sign has been there for at leasta fewyears. I open carry there fairly regularly. It is just a tricky, bureacratic sign. Almost meaningless. First of all, your gun is not an "illegal gun". Secondly, localities and entitiesmay lawfully ban "other weapons". Pre-emption appliesonly to firearms.

Virginia USED to have a "Concealed Weapons Permit", but it was changed to a "concealede HANDGUNPermit

rady8um · Jan 19, 2009

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The sign clearly (imho)excludes legal firearms. If the intention of the sign was to prohibit all firearms, there would be no point inspecifying illegal ones and all other weapons. If it is meant to prohibit all guns,it should read: No guns or other weapons permitted.

sccrref · Jan 19, 2009

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IANAL but I read it to mean you can carry legal guns. You cannot carry illegal guns or any other weapons. If they did not want any weapons in the place, then they would have made a sign that said no weapons permitted. The sign clearly seperates guns from other types of weapons.

TFred · Jan 19, 2009

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So at best, it's just confusing enough to dissuade people who are not acutely aware of their rights from carrying in the library. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. As close to the line as they can get and still be within the letter of the law.

I am not an English teacher, nor a lawyer, but I do read specifications for a living, and to me, it describes two types of items: "illegal guns", which includes all the various types of firearms that are illegal, and "other weapons of any kind", which includes any weapon that is not an "illegal gun". I think the concept of "are allowed" is simple enough, and as a native English speaker, I read this sign, and I honestly believe it is telling me that I am not allowed to bring any gun into the building.

This is worse than the National Park rule change which requires your firearm to be concealed, loaded and operable, in order to be legal!

Why isn't there a law which requires proper English!?

TFred

ETAdd and clarify.

Hawkflyer · Jan 19, 2009

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TFred wrote:

...SNIP
I am not an English teacher, nor a lawyer,

SNIP...

Neither was the person who wrote the sign.

IF it is a public facility where weapons are not otherwise prohibited, Ignore it if you are from out of town. If you live in Richmond please work on having the sign removed because ti it not legit. We can start writing out reps from out here in the hinterlands.

SicSemperTyrannis · Jan 20, 2009

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SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

The sign has been there for at leasta fewyears. I open carry there fairly regularly. It is just a tricky, bureacratic sign. Almost meaningless. First of all, your gun is not an "illegal gun". Secondly, localities and entitiesmay lawfully ban "other weapons". Pre-emption appliesonly to firearms.

Virginia USED to have a "Concealed Weapons Permit", but it was changed to a "Concealed HANDGUNPermit

The language clearly leaves something to be desired. I first saw the small, almost hidden sign years ago. Nonetheless, open carry is not a problem at the Library of Virginia.

The Capitol Police patrol and are responsible for the Library of Virginia. As we all know, they are among the better informed among law enforcement

Grapeshot · Jan 20, 2009

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SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

The Capitol Police patrol and are responsible for the Library of Virginia. As we all know, they are among the better informed among law enforcement

Aaah the Capital Police again - looks like its time for another letter to the Chief.

Yata hey

GWRedDragon · Jan 20, 2009

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Personally, I think this sign is pretty good. Perhaps it could be more clear but to me it reads that legal guns are allowed. Otherwise the word 'illegal' would be pointless.

MUCH better to have this than to have an invalid 'no guns' sign!

Grapeshot · Jan 20, 2009

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GWRedDragon wrote:

Personally, I think this sign is pretty good. Perhaps it could be more clear but to me it reads that legal guns are allowed. Otherwise the word 'illegal' would be pointless.

MUCH better to have this than to have an invalid 'no guns' sign!

Neither one is acceptable. The impression in this case to the uninitiated is that guns aren't allowed = color of law.

Either we have state preemption or we do not. It does not come in varying degrees.

Yata hey

TFred · Jan 20, 2009

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Grapeshot wrote:

GWRedDragon wrote:

Personally, I think this sign is pretty good. Perhaps it could be more clear but to me it reads that legal guns are allowed. Otherwise the word 'illegal' would be pointless.

MUCH better to have this than to have an invalid 'no guns' sign!

Click to expand...

Neither one is acceptable. The impression in this case to the uninitiated is that guns aren't allowed = color of law.

Either we have state preemption or we do not. It does not come in varying degrees.

Yata hey

Exactly my thoughts. No matter what you think it says, if a LEO tells you that they think it means you shouldn't have carried a gun in the Library, then you are going to be in trouble, and as noted, this is unacceptable. Preemption was not put in place to allow confusing signs and policies, it was put in place to eliminate them!

TFred

Grapeshot · Jan 20, 2009

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Letter requesting removal of the illegal sign can be seen at
http://vagrapeshot.multiply.com/

Click on Library of Virginia, click on each photo & zoom to read text better.

I will advise of the Chief's response.

Yata hey

TFred · Jan 20, 2009

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Cool, it sounds like you have already established a cordial correspondence with the Chief. I'm anxious to hear about the reply!

TFred

Hawkflyer · Jan 21, 2009

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TFred wrote:

...SNIP

you have already established a cordial correspondence with the Chief.

SNIP...

006-%5BLaughing%5D-%5BEmoticonKing.com%5D.gif

Grapeshot · Jan 21, 2009

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Hawkflyer wrote:

TFred wrote:

you have already established a cordial correspondence with the Chief.

Click to expand...

Have definitely established a relationship that probably begins with "Oh no, not him again" when she sees the return address.

Did get a response and desired correction from previous correspondence - even though her reply was intentionally vague and generic.

Yata hey

nova · Jan 21, 2009

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GWRedDragon wrote:

Personally, I think this sign is pretty good. Perhaps it could be more clear but to me it reads that legal guns are allowed. Otherwise the word 'illegal' would be pointless.

MUCH better to have this than to have an invalid 'no guns' sign!

The question is, what is an "illegal" gun? An unregistered post-86 machine gun in civilian hands? No, the gun is legal, it's just illegal for you to possess it. A gun with the S/N scratched off? Nope. It's illegal for you to scratch/deface the S/N or possess one with the S/N in such condition.

So...what the heck is an "illegal gun"? If it means a firearm that is illegal to possess, isn't that already against the law? Why would the law not apply inside the library?

GWRedDragon · Jan 21, 2009

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nova wrote:

If it means a firearm that is illegal to possess, isn't that already against the law? Why would the law not apply inside the library?

Yes, I think that is what it means. The purpose of such a sign follows the same reasoning as many other 'no guns' signs: it is put up in an attempt to discourage people from illegally carrying.

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