Open Carry in Roanoke (Wendy's)

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TFred wrote:

Just a thought here... while this may seem (and it might actually be) amusing on the surface, I would bet my bottom dollar that the LEO in the story was not laughing at the time.

IMHO, the blame here goes to the dispatcher who took the call, for not discerning the facts of the case. We can't know the details without gathering the evidence, i.e. 911 recording, and dispatch logs, etc., but from the description, the LEO was just doing his job, apparently unaware of the circumstances he had been called on to answer.

I think it is of paramount importance that we continue efforts to not only educate the LEOs but the support structure behind them as well, on what is and is not appropriate behavior for law abiding citizens in Virginia.

If for no other reason, that is why the folks involved should seek out the evidence, so that steps can be taken to avoid a potential tragedy in the future.

JMHO...

TFred

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TFred, my friend and I came to the same conclusion. Sounds like the 911 dispatcher just heard "guns" and sent an officer.

Agreed.

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DrMark wrote:

hunter45 wrote:

How did you have a conversation with them? I've never heard a Wendy's employee that speaks English.

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Not speaking English?!? At Wendy's?!?

(...runs off to google where "Centreville" is)

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5 miles north of mexinassas.

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TFred wrote:

Just a thought here... while this may seem (and it might actually be) amusing on the surface, I would bet my bottom dollar that the LEO in the story was not laughing at the time.

IMHO, the blame here goes to the dispatcher who took the call, for not discerning the facts of the case. We can't know the details without gathering the evidence, i.e. 911 recording, and dispatch logs, etc., but from the description, the LEO was just doing his job, apparently unaware of the circumstances he had been called on to answer.

I think it is of paramount importance that we continue efforts to not only educate the LEOs but the support structure behind them as well, on what is and is not appropriate behavior for law abiding citizens in Virginia.

If for no other reason, that is why the folks involved should seek out the evidence, so that steps can be taken to avoid a potential tragedy in the future.

JMHO...

TFred

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+1, ABSOLUTELY!

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We're checking into what it would take to get the recordings/transcripts. Has anyone filed one of these before? It looks like the cost is based on how long it takes what kind of researcher to get the information. I wouldn't think it would take long, or the top paid researcher, but I wonder what they say it would take.

Anyone have an idea of the cost?

Thanks

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Usually you only have to pay for FOIA requests if they have to make a lot of copies or go to an extraordinary amount of work. Just send a letter to their station and request the information under the Freedom of Information Act. Provide as much info as possible, i.e. date, time, location, etc. Indicate in your letter that you will pay up to $20 or so for postage, copies, etc and ask them to call you if your request will cost more.

I'm sure they can pull tapes of 911 calls and radio traffic fairly quickly since I'm sure they do it all the time for the courts.

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A part of me feels sorry for some of these officers. The officers in the bad parts of town really have to take gun sightings as serious threats. You really don't know if it is another thug or some pesky open carrier.

I do wish that Roanoke would get with the program a little bit.

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richarcm wrote:

A part of me feels sorry for some of these officers. The officers in the bad parts of town really have to take gun sightings as serious threats. You really don't know if it is another thug or some pesky open carrier.

I do wish that Roanoke would get with the program a little bit.

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That's where the dispatcher could be a big help. Getting information as to how the gun is being carried and what the carrier is doing could go a long way in filtering out real problems from an armed citizen.

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SouthernBoy wrote

That's where the dispatcher could be a big help. Getting information as to how the gun is being carried and what the carrier is doing could go a long way in filtering out real problems from an armed citizen.

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I of course agree with you except that how the situation turns out depends on many things. The appearance and behavior of the gun toter, the crime statistics of the area, the bias of the person calling 911, the dispatcher asking the right questions and relaying accurate info and the officer taking the correct precautions and remaining calm.

I'm just saying that in a bad neighborhood when you run into a person with a gun the chances are much higher than in say, Arlington, that the guy/girl is not an open carrier fighting for the 2nd Amendment. I would just imagine that despite any lack of poor behavior on the part of the OCer that the flag is still raised, adrenaline still pumps and safety measures are taken in part of everyone.

I'm not saying thats how it SHOULD be. And surely there are many instances in worse neighborhoods that everyone acts as we'd like. But I can imagine that its a lot tougher depending on the neighborhood. I'm not sure exactly how to remedy that...I suppose you have to elect officials who will actually clean up their community. But we know its going to get a lot worse before it gets much better in a lot of these areas.

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richarcm wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote

That's where the dispatcher could be a big help. Getting information as to how the gun is being carried and what the carrier is doing could go a long way in filtering out real problems from an armed citizen.

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I of course agree with you except that how the situation turns out depends on many things. The appearance and behavior of the gun toter, the crime statistics of the area, the bias of the person calling 911, the dispatcher asking the right questions and relaying accurate info and the officer taking the correct precautions and remaining calm.

I'm just saying that in a bad neighborhood when you run into a person with a gun the chances are much higher than in say, Arlington, that the guy/girl is not an open carrier fighting for the 2nd Amendment. I would just imagine that despite any lack of poor behavior on the part of the OCer that the flag is still raised, adrenaline still pumps and safety measures are taken in part of everyone.

I'm not saying thats how it SHOULD be. And surely there are many instances in worse neighborhoods that everyone acts as we'd like. But I can imagine that its a lot tougher depending on the neighborhood. I'm not sure exactly how to remedy that...I suppose you have to elect officials who will actually clean up their community. But we know its going to get a lot worse before it gets much better in a lot of these areas.

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It would seem to me that one of the goals of the OC movement should be to hold Law Enforcement to the task of equally treating all persons who are legally openly carrying, without regard to their race or clothing. (With the possible exception of gang related clothing, for which the courts apparently allow special scrutiny.)

Maybe that's asking for too much, I don't know.

At this point, I'm hard pressed to believe that 2 or 3 OC'ing fourty year old white guys walking to their car along a downtown sidewalk after a late dinner at a city restaurant would be treated the same as 2 or 3 OC'ing twenty-five year old black guys in hoodies walking down that same sidewalk at the same time.

If the right to OC without hassle can be denied someone because of race and clothing, some other right can certainly be denied you for some other equally superficial reason.

Having said all that, I can't absolutely deny that in my vulnerable human nature, I would probably be guilty of some (hopefully small) level of discrimination in the above scenario. The problem is that while we desire to live in a perfect world, we actually live in the real world where preconceived perceptions and prejudices do exist.

TFred

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I have a feeling that the burger took forever because they knew the cops were coming and they wanted to keep you as long as possibleto give the officers time toget there..

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TFred wrote:

richarcm wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote

That's where the dispatcher could be a big help. Getting information as to how the gun is being carried and what the carrier is doing could go a long way in filtering out real problems from an armed citizen.

Click to expand...

I of course agree with you except that how the situation turns out depends on many things. The appearance and behavior of the gun toter, the crime statistics of the area, the bias of the person calling 911, the dispatcher asking the right questions and relaying accurate info and the officer taking the correct precautions and remaining calm.

I'm just saying that in a bad neighborhood when you run into a person with a gun the chances are much higher than in say, Arlington, that the guy/girl is not an open carrier fighting for the 2nd Amendment. I would just imagine that despite any lack of poor behavior on the part of the OCer that the flag is still raised, adrenaline still pumps and safety measures are taken in part of everyone.

I'm not saying thats how it SHOULD be. And surely there are many instances in worse neighborhoods that everyone acts as we'd like. But I can imagine that its a lot tougher depending on the neighborhood. I'm not sure exactly how to remedy that...I suppose you have to elect officials who will actually clean up their community. But we know its going to get a lot worse before it gets much better in a lot of these areas.

Click to expand...

It would seem to me that one of the goals of the OC movement should be to hold Law Enforcement to the task of equally treating all persons who are legally openly carrying, without regard to their race or clothing. (With the possible exception of gang related clothing, for which the courts apparently allow special scrutiny.)

Maybe that's asking for too much, I don't know.

At this point, I'm hard pressed to believe that 2 or 3 OC'ing fourty year old white guys walking to their car along a downtown sidewalk after a late dinner at a city restaurant would be treated the same as 2 or 3 OC'ing twenty-five year old black guys in hoodies walking down that same sidewalk at the same time.

If the right to OC without hassle can be denied someone because of race and clothing, some other right can certainly be denied you for some other equally superficial reason.

Having said all that, I can't absolutely deny that in my vulnerable human nature, I would probably be guilty of some (hopefully small) level of discrimination in the above scenario. The problem is that while we desire to live in a perfect world, we actually live in the real world where preconceived perceptions and prejudices do exist.

TFred

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There is nothing wrong with profiling.. we do it all the time and many times without a lot of conscience knowledge. It's human nature, really. And I submit that everyone does it at one time or another, even those who like to claim they are completely opposed to it.

Some years back, Jesse Jackson told how he was walking to a townhouse late at night not far from capital hill (his house I think). He heard footsteps getting closer from behind and he quickened his step. When he reached a point where he could turn around and see who was approaching him, he said he was relieved to see it was a white man. Once again, that's just a normal reaction to a perceived threat in a town where there is a high degree of violent crime committed.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

There is nothing wrong with profiling.. we do it all the time and many times without a lot of conscience knowledge. It's human nature, really. And I submit that everyone does it at one time or another, even those who like to claim they are completely opposed to it.

Some years back, Jesse Jackson told how he was walking to a townhouse late at night not far from capital hill (his house I think). He heard footsteps getting closer from behind and he quickened his step. When he reached a point where he could turn around and see who was approaching him, he said he was relieved to see it was a white man. Once again, that's just a normal reaction to a perceived threat in a town where there is a high degree of violent crime committed.

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In a perfect world I too would agree that we should NOT profile. However this world is obviously anything BUT perfect. I agree that everyone profiles. To say that you do not is very hard to believe. It may not always make sense. Sometimes the bad guys are wearing suits or dresses. Sometimes the good guys are dressed gangsta. But that is not typically the case and is not easily assumed by most people when a personal situation arises. Unfortunately I hold the group who is most often profiled accountable 9 times out of 10 for not doing better within their group/race/community to stand up against crime and poor behavior. As an OC community if bad behavior persists from within it is each one of our faults for not addressing it and correcting it. It would not be the fault of the common person for profiling us due to bad behavior. The fault would be our own. I do not expect for anyone to take more responsibility for their actions as a person, race, class or gender than I take for my own. But I do expect that people take a comparable amount of responsibility and concern.

So in the case of the cop I do not necessarily think too badly of him because he understood the law but also took into account the history of the area and took proper precautions to protect himself and the community. Should it be that way? Of course not. Does it make the most sense to take such precautions? I think so. That doesn't mean the officer can break the law. But I don't blame him for treating a gun owner in a bad area as a potential problem.

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richarcm wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

There is nothing wrong with profiling.. we do it all the time and many times without a lot of conscience knowledge. It's human nature, really. And I submit that everyone does it at one time or another, even those who like to claim they are completely opposed to it.

Some years back, Jesse Jackson told how he was walking to a townhouse late at night not far from capital hill (his house I think). He heard footsteps getting closer from behind and he quickened his step. When he reached a point where he could turn around and see who was approaching him, he said he was relieved to see it was a white man. Once again, that's just a normal reaction to a perceived threat in a town where there is a high degree of violent crime committed.

Click to expand...

In a perfect world I too would agree that we should NOT profile. However this world is obviously anything BUT perfect. I agree that everyone profiles. To say that you do not is very hard to believe. It may not always make sense. Sometimes the bad guys are wearing suits or dresses. Sometimes the good guys are dressed gangsta. But that is not typically the case and is not easily assumed by most people when a personal situation arises. Unfortunately I hold the group who is most often profiled accountable 9 times out of 10 for not doing better within their group/race/community to stand up against crime and poor behavior. As an OC community if bad behavior persists from within it is each one of our faults for not addressing it and correcting it. It would not be the fault of the common person for profiling us due to bad behavior. The fault would be our own. I do not expect for anyone to take more responsibility for their actions as a person, race, class or gender than I take for my own. But I do expect that people take a comparable amount of responsibility and concern.

So in the case of the cop I do not necessarily think too badly of him because he understood the law but also took into account the history of the area and took proper precautions to protect himself and the community. Should it be that way? Of course not. Does it make the most sense to take such precautions? I think so. That doesn't mean the officer can break the law. But I don't blame him for treating a gun owner in a bad area as a potential problem.

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Yeah, in the context in which I responded, I was not at all referring to the kind of profiling that seems to get caught up in the press as being terrible and non-PC. I was talking about what the "common" person does on a normal day-to-day basis. We all make assumptions and preconceived notions all the time and many times without being that aware of our actions. When it comes to matters of self defense and situational awareness, we'd be stupid if we didn't profile a bit for our own welfare.

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This is what I found about the cost of a freedom of information request:
source: http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/referenceguidemay99.htm#how under section VII: FEES:

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]There is no initial fee to file a FOIA request; in fact, in the majority of requests made to the Justice Department, no fees are ever charged. By law, however, an agency is entitled to charge certain fees, which depend on the particular category of FOIA requester that you fall into.[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] For the purposes of fees only, the FOIA divides requesters into three categories. In the first category, commercial requesters may be charged fees for searching for records, "processing" the records (i.e., reviewing them to determine the possible applicability of FOIA exemptions), and photocopying them. In the second category, on the other hand, educational or noncommercial scientific institutions and representatives of the news media are charged only for photocopying expenses, after the first one hundred pages of copies. Requesters in the third category, i.e., all other requesters, are charged only for record searches and photocopying -- and there is no charge for the first two hours of search time or for the first one hundred pages of photocopies or their cost equivalent. The Justice Department charges ten cents per page for photocopying. In all cases, if the total fee does not exceed a minimum amount, currently $14, the Justice Department will not charge any fee at all.[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]You may always include in your request letter a specific statement limiting the amount that you are willing to pay in fees. If you do not do so, the Justice Department will assume that you are willing to pay fees of up to a certain amount, currently $25. If a component estimates that the total fees for processing your request will exceed $25, it will notify you in writing of the estimate and offer you an opportunity to narrow your request in order to reduce the fees. If you continue to want all of the records involved, you will be asked to express your commitment to pay the estimated fees and the processing of your request will be suspended until you agree to do so. You ordinarily will not be required to actually pay the fees until the records have been processed and are ready to be sent to you. If, however, you have failed to pay fees within thirty days of billing in the past, or if the estimated fees exceed $250, you may be required to pay the estimated fees in advance -- that is, before the records even are processed. If you agree to pay fees and then fail to do so within 30 days of billing, you may be charged interest on your overdue balance and the Justice Department will not proceed with any further requests from you until payment in full has been made. If you agree to pay fees for searching for records, be aware that you may be required to pay such fees even if the search does not locate any responsive records or, if records are located, even if they are withheld as entirely exempt.[/font]

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Oh, I know exactly which Wendy's this is. I would definitely be carrying if I were ever in that neighborhood again.

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leaker wrote:

SNIP This is what I found about the cost of a freedom of information request:
source: http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/referenceguidemay99.htm#how under section VII: FEES:

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]There is no initial fee to file a FOIA request; in fact, in the majority of requests made to the Justice Department, no fees are ever charged. By law, however, an agency is entitled to charge certain fees, which depend on the particular category of FOIA requester that you fall into.[/font]

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That would apply to FOIA requests to a federal government agency.

For local police in VA one would use the VA FOIA, found here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC02020000037000000000000

The VA FOIA discusses fees here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+2.2-3704

F. A public body may make reasonable charges not to exceed its actual cost incurred in accessing, duplicating, supplying, or searching for the requested records. No public body shall impose any extraneous, intermediary or surplus fees or expenses to recoup the general costs associated with creating or maintaining records or transacting the general business of the public body. Any duplicating fee charged by a public body shall not exceed the actual cost of duplication.

The link to DOJ may prove handy, though. Thanks.

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So open carrying in Arlington is a bad idea? Why fer?

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Boondock Saint wrote:

So open carrying in Arlington is a bad idea? Why fer?

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Arlington is lousy with left-leaners. I left there in '98 after having lived in Arlington for 24 years. It's gone to the dogs.

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I'll be in Arlington this weekend helping someone move. I live in the People's Republic of Maryland, so I'm really eager to OC while down there. But at the same time I don't want to get Gestapo'ed either.

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Don't the Roanoke police publish daily/weekly/monthly crime reports? Up here, Loudoun and Fairfax county crime reports are available online.

You may still want to hear the 911 call, but the crime report may contain all the information that was relayed to the officer and it may just be a point/click away.