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Thread: Spotsylvania Towne Centre sign

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I don't go often, and don't always read the sign, but the other day it looked different than I remembered, so I stopped to take a look. The pertinent language states:

    "Weapons are prohibited except as authorized by State & Federal Law."

    I can guess that their intent is to keep all guns out except for LEOs. I think they have you on Open Carry, since in Virginia, it's not specifically allowed by statute, but it seems to me that since a CHP authorizes one to carry a concealed firearm, you could at least claim that would pass the letter of the rule.

    They would probably say it doesn't authorize to specifically carry in the mall, but that is silly, a CHP doesn't authorize anyone to carry in any specific place, but it does authorize you to carry concealed!

    On the plus side, as is usually discussed here, I think their only penalty is to ask you to leave. There is text to that effect at the bottom of the sign, but I didn't write it down to report here.

    TFred


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    TFred wrote:
    ....snip....I think they have you on Open Carry, since in Virginia, it's not specifically allowed by statute ....snip....
    Since OC is not prohibited by law it is therefore "allowed" by law.
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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Either way....if you OC, they catch you and they don't like it, sign or no sign, they may decide that you need to leave. You may be asked to leave if there isn't a sign and you may slip through if there is a sign. Each time you go into ANY private business you are rolling the dice.

    In this instance I would say you should perhaps choose to CC vs OC and 99 times out of 100 you probably won't have a single problem.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    mobeewan wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    ....snip....I think they have you on Open Carry, since in Virginia, it's not specifically allowed by statute ....snip....
    Since OC is not prohibited by law it is therefore "allowed" by law.
    My point was that "not prohibited" is not the same as "authorized", which is why I used "allowed by statute". To my non-lawyer brain, "authorized" requires explicit action, but "not prohibited" can apply to anything that is not explicitly prohibited.

    TFred


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    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    I just got off the phone after talking to Mark Gentry, the Property Manager for Spotsylvania Towne Centre at Phone: 540-786-6660. I asked them if there was a change in policy regarding firearms in the mall, his reply was there is no change but the policy is if they see you openly carrying a firearm they ask you to leave but that they do not look for or ask you to leave if you conceal carry your firearm. I thanked him for the information and stated that since I can now carry, at least concealled, I would start shopping in the mall again.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    streetdoc wrote:
    I just got off the phone after talking to Mark Gentry, the Property Manager for Spotsylvania Towne Centre at Phone: 540-786-6660. I asked them if there was a change in policy regarding firearms in the mall, his reply was there is no change but the policy is if they see you openly carrying a firearm they ask you to leave but that they do not look for or ask you to leave if you conceal carry your firearm. I thanked him for the information and stated that since I can now carry, at least concealled, I would start shopping in the mall again.
    Very interesting... thanks for following up!

    TFred


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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I just noticed, someone needs to update the VCDL Gun Unfriendly web page:

    http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html#Spotsylvania%20Mall

    I guess someone needs to stop by and snap a picture of the new sign.

    TFred


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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    streetdoc wrote:
    I thanked him for the information and stated that since I can now carry, at least concealled, I would start shopping in the mall again.
    Just don't patronize any restaurants outside the food court where statutory law would require you to switch to OC.

    I know there are several restaurants at Pembroke Mall in Virginia Beach (which, at last check did not specifically prohibit open carry) that serve alcohol and have mall-only entrances.

    White Horse Pub is one of them. I think Kelly's has an outdoor entrance.

    Just curious of the handling of that particular situation.
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    TFred wrote:
    I just noticed, someone needs to update the VCDL Gun Unfriendly web page:

    http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html#Spotsylvania%20Mall

    I guess someone needs to stop by and snap a picture of the new sign.
    Picture taken and review is underway.
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    I don't go often, and don't always read the sign, but the other day it looked different than I remembered, so I stopped to take a look. The pertinent language states:

    "Weapons are prohibited except as authorized by State & Federal Law."

    I can guess that their intent is to keep all guns out except for LEOs. I think they have you on Open Carry, since in Virginia, it's not specifically allowed by statute, but it seems to me that since a CHP authorizes one to carry a concealed firearm, you could at least claim that would pass the letter of the rule.

    They would probably say it doesn't authorize to specifically carry in the mall, but that is silly, a CHP doesn't authorize anyone to carry in any specific place, but it does authorize you to carry concealed!

    On the plus side, as is usually discussed here, I think their only penalty is to ask you to leave. There is text to that effect at the bottom of the sign, but I didn't write it down to report here.

    TFred
    Well first things first. Words have meaning and when stated as a policy, dancing around the periphery just don't cut it. What this means is that me must dissect this statement in literal terms only.

    When applied to open carry, this statement would not allow OC. The reason being because of the phrase, "except as authorize". In Virginia, there is no law permitting open carry so therefore open carry is the normal state of affairs. However, a CHP is a permit issued to the applicant which constitutes the state's authorization for the legal concealed carry of a handgun. This permit would meet the requirement of the phrase so therefore, concealed carry could be covered by the statement and allowed within the confines of the property.

    It's funny. People are so used to being told that they can or cannot do something that they overlook that which is the norm and not the exception. Since there is nothing codified in Virginia law that I can find regarding open carry, that is the norm and to not open carry is the exception. Most of the comments I get when OC'ing revolve around permits to OC.

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    I agree with SouthernBoy that the mall could argue semantics if you OC.

    Here is a picture of the new sign:


    They have a nice little "reserves the right to prohibit other activity that affects the comfort and safety of its guest" statement on the sign.
    ---

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    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    As I posted above, the Mall Manager has stated that as long as they don't see the gun it's not a problem, however, if security can see it they will tell you take the gun out of the Mall or you will have to leave. For now at least we can CC without a problem, if we push the issue, the impression I got is that they would prohibit firearms, period!
    My preference is to open carry but I will easily accept CC, especially from a establishment that has in the past prohibited all firearms.
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    Until we can get stay-at-home and soccer moms to OC we will continue to see the massaging of the message in retail outlets. Spotsy Mall will do its best to keep everyone happy.

    Let's face it, until we can get some mom/kids group involved or on our side it will continue to challenge us.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    streetdoc wrote:
    As I posted above, the Mall Manager has stated that as long as they don't see the gun it's not a problem, however, if security can see it they will tell you take the gun out of the Mall or you will have to leave. For now at least we can CC without a problem, if we push the issue, the impression I got is that they would prohibit firearms, period!
    My preference is to open carry but I will easily accept CC, especially from a establishment that has in the past prohibited all firearms.
    Yep. Sometimes discretion is really the better part of valor.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    'Federal Law' specifically addresses RTKBA in 2A as a pre-existing Right. The manner of bearingis not prescribed. CC is usually by 'Permit' to conceal rather than permit to merely bear.

    Kind'a obvious whover wrote that sign is a product of the dubble-think gummint school systems.

    RIGHTs do not require gummint authorization, permit or license.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Sadly, it doesn't really matter what their sign says, or if it says what they are trying to say. I agree, one could pull out a copy of the Second Amendment and say "this here is the federal law that authorizes me to carry", but if they ask you to leave, you still have to leave.

    You could then complain to the mall management that their security folks are acting inconsistent with what their sign says, but what will they do then, maybe change the sign, and not to our favor.

    TFred


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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    Sadly, it doesn't really matter what their sign says, or if it says what they are trying to say. I agree, one could pull out a copy of the Second Amendment and say "this here is the federal law that authorizes me to carry", but if they ask you to leave, you still have to leave.

    You could then complain to the mall management that their security folks are acting inconsistent with what their sign says, but what will they do then, maybe change the sign, and not to our favor.

    TFred
    Remind them in no uncertain terms that what they have posted is a Civil Rights violation... and THAT is against the LAW!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    Sadly, it doesn't really matter what their sign says, or if it says what they are trying to say. I agree, one could pull out a copy of the Second Amendment and say "this here is the federal law that authorizes me to carry", but if they ask you to leave, you still have to leave.

    You could then complain to the mall management that their security folks are acting inconsistent with what their sign says, but what will they do then, maybe change the sign, and not to our favor.

    TFred
    Remind them in no uncertain terms that what they have posted is a Civil Rights violation... and THAT is against the LAW!
    Until you can convince the general public that the right to carry a firearm is on the same level as being served at integrated lunch counters, restrooms and water fountains, I don't think anyone is going to buy that point of view. I'm not saying it isn't, I don't think the general public is there.

    TFred

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    Sadly, it doesn't really matter what their sign says, or if it says what they are trying to say. I agree, one could pull out a copy of the Second Amendment and say "this here is the federal law that authorizes me to carry", but if they ask you to leave, you still have to leave.

    You could then complain to the mall management that their security folks are acting inconsistent with what their sign says, but what will they do then, maybe change the sign, and not to our favor.

    TFred
    Remind them in no uncertain terms that what they have posted is a Civil Rights violation... and THAT is against the LAW!
    This is true. Not like the claims of civil rights abuse we most frequently hear about regarding "groups". In the United States, groups have no rights. Individuals have rights. The Second Amendment is a true and valid civil right, as are the other nine Articles of the Bill of Rights.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    At first blush, an area called a town center certainly sounds like a government owned property, but I believe most if not all of these places are nothing more than privately owned shopping centers that have a new 'branding,' thus they certainly can make the rules up as they go.
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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    rlh2005 wrote:
    I agree with SouthernBoy that the mall could argue semantics if you OC.

    Here is a picture of the new sign:


    They have a nice little "reserves the right to prohibit other activity that affects the comfort and safety of its guest" statement on the sign.
    Oh, oh.... Did you get written approval to photograph Towne Center property? Paragraph 2, line 9.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Comfort and safety..? OK... no rollerblades, skateboards... bikes... dogs on leash... BUT this does not trump the free exercise of an individualsCivil Right(s). All these no guns joints are doing just that. They're tellin' you, ya can't sit at their lunchcounter. And... the gummint/LEO wonks... (who took an oath to support and defend the constitution... but don't) will support their position... TO DEPRIVE YOU OF A CIVIL RIGHT! Isn't that a Felony?

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Oh, oh.... Did you get written approval to photograph Towne Center property? Paragraph 2, line 9.
    I don't know how that electronic facsimile of their sign ended up on my BlackBerry. I guess I need to stop by the cell phone store to have it checked for a malfunctioning shutter.


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  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Resurrecting old thread.

    It would seem that our interpretation of Spotsylvania Towne Centre's current policy,

    "Weapons are prohibited except as authorized by state and federal law."

    has been firmed up with Cuccinelli's recent opinion that the CHP code specifically authorizes concealed carry any place not otherwise prohibited by state law, or the rightful owner of the property.

    Given the policy as stated above, it appears that this clearly authorizes concealed carry at Spotsylvania Towne Centre.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 07-05-2011 at 04:44 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Spotsylvania Towne Centre's current policy,
    The few times I've been there I OC'ed without issue.
    Policy enforcement probably depends on what Security Gaurd see's you, what kind of day he/she is having or if there are any complaints.
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