What should I do????

r6-rider · Jan 22, 2009

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yea drinking and OCing would look kind of bad. but in this case he was CCing which makes it not as bad but i can still imagine what the owner was thinking. my suggestion is just conceal it better and leave it at that. i know if i was drinking and carrying i sure as hell wouldnt use my weapon in the event something happened unless i was cornered and had no other choice. either way its still better to have it IMO, regardless of what your doing or where

rugergirl · Jan 22, 2009

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I'm not sure about the laws in other states, but here in Michigan the BAC is 02, about 1 beer. For me, more than 4 Jack & Cokes puts me in a happy place and I don't feel confident driving or carrying. That's way beyond what the law allows, but the risk of getting busted just isn't worth it.

Gonna drink, don't carry. Get a designated driver and carrier.

As far a any business that doesn't welcome me and my weapon even if I'm not drinking doesn't get my business, period.

I know many businesses are privately owned and may set their own rules, but my money is just as green elsewhere and I will spend it where my 2nd ammendment rights aren't restricted.

shad0wfax · Jan 22, 2009

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slowzx320 wrote:

I was at the local bar eating,drinking beer and playing pool. Ive been there maybe 30 time since it has opened, and always carried my gun in concealed. The bar has no Gun Prohibited sticker nowhere and Indiana you can carry in a bar. I was playing pool at the time was on my 3rd game, apparently the cook seen my gun went i was bent over for a shot. So he told the manager or whoever which was a women, she came over to me and asked if i had a gun..... I said yes. I have a permit is there a problem? She asked to see my permit, i show it to her i said there is no sticker on the door that says no guns aloud. She really didnt have anything to say, she took it to the show somebody them came out and asked if i could put it in my car. I said sure no problem real nice, I left it at that I got there number so i can call the owner. What should I do??? this is the first time i was asked to put my gun away

Thanks Brian

I would either not answer her question about the gun or lie and say "no I don't." I would never showmy permit to an employee or private citizenunless the law in my state requires that I do so. (and it doesn't)

If they trespassed me out for refusing to answer or lying after my CC'd weapon printed, I'd just pay my tab and go find another place to drink and shoot pool.

However, in my state, I can't carry in a bar, so none of this applies.

jmlefler · Jan 23, 2009

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I am in no way advocating the mixing of alcohol and gunpowder, as a personal choice. I am advocating that all rights be protected equally and not restricted without due process in an arbitrary fashion such as BAC.

From wrightme: This is not to say that rights are negated, but you can argue that they may be suspended while intoxicated.

..Please, not the word game again. 'Suspended'? Is your definition 'temporarily negated'? If it is, you are saying that rights are negated and you're violating the basic identity rule of logic (a thing either is or isn't a thing).

..You can argue all you want, but that doesn't change the Constitution - recall that you cannot be denied your rights without due process. My reference: the 5th amendment to the Constitution. Operating a motor vehicle is considered a privilege by fiat - that you could suspend. Entirely different from a Right. Don't confuse rights with powers or privileges (which leads to another interesting discussion regarding 'privileges or immunities' found in the 14th amendment).

Carry on.

wrightme · Jan 23, 2009

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jmlefler wrote:

From wrightme: This is not to say that rights are negated, but you can argue that they may be suspended while intoxicated.

..You can argue all you want but that doesn't change the Constitution - recall that you cannot be denied your rights without due process. My reference: the 5th amendment to the Constitution. Operating a motor vehicle is considered a privilege by fiat - that you could suspend. Entirely different from a Right. Don't confuse rights with powers or privileges (which leads to another interesting discussion regarding 'privileges or immunities' found in the 14th amendment).

Carry on.

Good point. I still find it very difficult to believe any justification attempt for carrying a firearm (exercise of Right) while intoxicated. From a strictly common-sense standpoint, the legal ramifications are simply too much. As has been mentioned, if you are going to carry, accept that it is your responsibility to defend. If you are going to get intoxicated, allow someone who isn't intoxicated to defend.

jmlefler · Jan 23, 2009

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Then don't. Just don't require others to follow your 'common sense' beliefs.

Carry on.

Venator · Jan 23, 2009

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rugergirl wrote:

I'm not sure about the laws in other states, but here in Michigan the BAC is 02, about 1 beer. For me, more than 4 Jack & Cokes puts me in a happy place and I

Want to come over for 6 jack and cokes, I'll buy

wrightme · Jan 23, 2009

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jmlefler wrote:

Then don't. Just don't require others to follow your 'common sense' beliefs.

Carry on.

So you believe that an intoxicated person can successfully (and safely and accurately) defend with a firearm?

Carnivore · Jan 23, 2009

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I can go all day and eat nothing, and drink three beers, and know in my mind that I feel alcohol in my system, or I can eat three healthy meals in a day and go out and drink 18 beers, and still know that I'm not gonna fall over and land on my head..

But can I expect the general population to evaluate me for what I know is my tollerance level?? NO!! all the general population knows is that I'm consuming alcohol!! OH YEA, and I have a gun..

Is the general populationrequired to evaluate this just upon a happen chance observation that all is well with you?? NO!! All they see is a man consuming Alcohol with a gun..

Your posture/ attitude/ conversation/slang language/your dress and general appearance all play on the minds of JON Q PUBLIC.. Do I owe you a honest evaluation, NO !! But do I have to stay in your presence, and continue to patronize this establishment? NO!! If a business owner has one customer carrying concealed while consuming alcohol, and has 75 customers consuming alcohol and to the best of their knowledge notcarrying a firearm, do you think their going to tell the other 75 that if they don't like it to leave?? NO !!

Maybeon this particular visit the fact that you allowed peek a boo with your firearm convinced them that you didn't take your carry privilege serious enough.. soyou caused them to make the call that they might have overlooked on other occasions when they might have known you were carrying..

compmanio365 · Jan 23, 2009

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wrightme wrote:

jmlefler wrote:

Then don't. Just don't require others to follow your 'common sense' beliefs.

Carry on.

Click to expand...

So you believe that an intoxicated person can successfully (and safely and accurately) defend with a firearm?

Do you believe that has anything to do with the fact that it is their right to carry the firearm regardless? If you don't feel it's something you can do and don't feel comfortable doing it, then don't. But don't put your hangups on the rest of us, cause you feel you know what is best. A right is a right, regardless of public opinion or "common sense" to the contrary. "Common sense" is not too common, and changes daily with the mood of the public. If I feel I want to exercise that right, then that's the way it is. If I mess up while exercising that right, drunk or sober, I'm going to pay the price....so I have to judge the risk/reward of taking actions such as carrying while drinking. It's not your decision to make or anyone else's. Nobody said freedom would be perfect, but it's better than the alternative, and a heck of a lot better than the nanny state we find ourselves in today.

HPC9 · Jan 23, 2009

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wrightme wrote:

jmlefler wrote:

Then don't. Just don't require others to follow your 'common sense' beliefs.

Carry on.

Click to expand...

So you believe that an intoxicated person can successfully (and safely and accurately) defend with a firearm?

Maybe.

Can this person judge a threat and hit that moving target from 30 yards. Doubtful.

Can this person know that a person that has already knocked them to the ground and is beating them know that they are in imminent danger of serous bodily harm. Yes. Can this person draw and fire at arms length range safely and accurately. I'd argue Yes.

Does this person deserve to die because they do not have the "right" to defend themselves with the only force capable of consistently overcoming this level of a disparity of force...

There are lots a what if's. Knowing that there is no way to cover them all where do you draw the line when removing rights.

Rather than punish everyone (no guns in a bar) to prevent harm (or crime) why not punish acts (crime or unjust harm) sufficiently to make people think about their actions before doing something stupid.

Over half of violent crime is committed by REPEAT OFFENDERS. People, who know exactly what the punishment is like(jail time), are telling us the punishment is not severe enough. Yet we respond by punishing law abiding citizens.

/sarcasm on
Next time someone incites a riot I say we repeal the first amendment

PaulBlart · Jan 23, 2009

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Carnivore wrote:

I can go all day and eat nothing, and drink three beers, and know in my mind that I feel alcohol in my system, or I can eat three healthy meals in a day and go out and drink 18 beers, and still know that I'm not gonna fall over and land on my head..

But can I expect the general population to evaluate me for what I know is my tollerance level?? NO!! all the general population knows is that I'm consuming alcohol!! OH YEA, and I have a gun..

Is the general populationrequired to evaluate this just upon a happen chance observation that all is well with you?? NO!! All they see is a man consuming Alcohol with a gun..

Your posture/ attitude/ conversation/slang language/your dress and general appearance all play on the minds of JON Q PUBLIC.. Do I owe you a honest evaluation, NO !! But do I have to stay in your presence, and continue to patronize this establishment? NO!! If a business owner has one customer carrying concealed while consuming alcohol, and has 75 customers consuming alcohol and to the best of their knowledge notcarrying a firearm, do you think their going to tell the other 75 that if they don't like it to leave?? NO !!

Maybeon this particular visit the fact that you allowed peek a boo with your firearm convinced them that you didn't take your carry privilege serious enough.. soyou caused them to make the call that they might have overlooked on other occasions when they might have known you were carrying..

privilege?

wow i like you, there might be a job at the mall for ya deputy

Carnivore · Jan 23, 2009

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PaulBlart wrote:

Carnivore wrote:

I can go all day and eat nothing, and drink three beers, and know in my mind that I feel alcohol in my system, or I can eat three healthy meals in a day and go out and drink 18 beers, and still know that I'm not gonna fall over and land on my head..

But can I expect the general population to evaluate me for what I know is my tollerance level?? NO!! all the general population knows is that I'm consuming alcohol!! OH YEA, and I have a gun..

Is the general populationrequired to evaluate this just upon a happen chance observation that all is well with you?? NO!! All they see is a man consuming Alcohol with a gun..

Your posture/ attitude/ conversation/slang language/your dress and general appearance all play on the minds of JON Q PUBLIC.. Do I owe you a honest evaluation, NO !! But do I have to stay in your presence, and continue to patronize this establishment? NO!! If a business owner has one customer carrying concealed while consuming alcohol, and has 75 customers consuming alcohol and to the best of their knowledge notcarrying a firearm, do you think their going to tell the other 75 that if they don't like it to leave?? NO !!

Maybeon this particular visit the fact that you allowed peek a boo with your firearm convinced them that you didn't take your carry privilege serious enough.. soyou caused them to make the call that they might have overlooked on other occasions when they might have known you were carrying..

Click to expand...

privilege?

wow i like you, there might be a job at the mall for ya deputy

YES !! it is a privilege to carry on someone elses property..

jmlefler · Jan 23, 2009

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wrightme,

1. See above comments.

2. Define 'shall not be infringed' (the 2A has no 'unless' clause attached).

3. "Common sense" does not appear in the Constitution, common defense does.

4. Also included in the Constitution is the mechanism for changing what we the people, wish to add, change and delete. Do not substitute an individuals judgment for an amendment.

Good discussion.

Carry on.

wrightme · Jan 23, 2009

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jmlefler wrote:

wrightme,

1. See above comments.

2. Define 'shall not be infringed' (the 2A has no 'unless' clause attached).

3. "Common sense" does not appear in the Constitution, common defense does.

4. Also included in the Constitution is the mechanism for changing what we the people, wish to add, change and delete. Do not substitute an individuals judgment for an amendment.

Good discussion.

Carry on.

Saw it, read it, believe it.
If you are going to carry, don't get intoxicated.
If you are going to get intoxicated, don't carry.
Failing to act appropriately is NOT a chance to take, even for self-defense. You are counting on the "individuals judgment," even though it is quite recognized that a certain level of intoxication alters the ability to exercise good judgment.

AWDstylez · Jan 23, 2009

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Carnivore wrote:

I can go all day and eat nothing, and drink three beers, and know in my mind that I feel alcohol in my system, or I can eat three healthy meals in a day and go out and drink 18 beers, and still know that I'm not gonna fall over and land on my head..

But can I expect the general population to evaluate me for what I know is my tollerance level?? NO!! all the general population knows is that I'm consuming alcohol!! OH YEA, and I have a gun..

Is the general populationrequired to evaluate this just upon a happen chance observation that all is well with you?? NO!! All they see is a man consuming Alcohol with a gun..

Your posture/ attitude/ conversation/slang language/your dress and general appearance all play on the minds of JON Q PUBLIC.. Do I owe you a honest evaluation, NO !! But do I have to stay in your presence, and continue to patronize this establishment? NO!! If a business owner has one customer carrying concealed while consuming alcohol, and has 75 customers consuming alcohol and to the best of their knowledge notcarrying a firearm, do you think their going to tell the other 75 that if they don't like it to leave?? NO !!

Maybeon this particular visit the fact that you allowed peek a boo with your firearm convinced them that you didn't take your carry privilege serious enough.. soyou caused them to make the call that they might have overlooked on other occasions when they might have known you were carrying..

Everyone seems to be overlooking this.

You can cry "rights" all you want, when you're on private property you do what the owner says or you leave.

And, for the record, I don't care how much of a right you have to carry, you're an idiot if you drink and carry. In addition to endangering everyone around you with your inaccurate shooting and piss-poor, drunken judgment (on top of your already bad judgment), just think what would happen if you actually had to shoot someone while intoxicated. That prosecutor would make you grab your ankles and fulfill every one of his fantasies. When you finished your twenty life sentences, you'd wish you had just died at the bar.

HPC9 · Jan 23, 2009

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wrightme wrote:

jmlefler wrote:

wrightme,

1. See above comments.

2. Define 'shall not be infringed' (the 2A has no 'unless' clause attached).

3. "Common sense" does not appear in the Constitution, common defense does.

4. Also included in the Constitution is the mechanism for changing what we the people, wish to add, change and delete. Do not substitute an individuals judgment for an amendment.

Good discussion.

Carry on.

Click to expand...

Saw it, read it, believe it.
If you are going to carry, don't get intoxicated.
If you are going to get intoxicated, don't carry.
Failing to act appropriately is NOT a chance to take, even for self-defense. You are counting on the "individuals judgment," even though it is quite recognized that a certain level of intoxication alters the ability to exercise good judgment.

While I do agree with the basics of "If you are going to carry, don't get intoxicated.
If you are going to get intoxicated, don't carry."

I still don't agree with banning guns from bars.

For example. I do not carry when I go to a bar because it is illegal for me (no cpl) here in MI. Now last night I went out "Drinking" I had 5 beers in 6 hours. That is heavy drinking for me. Most of the time I don't drink at all. I just go to socialize with friends. I was not by any means drunk at any time during the night.

Should I be disallowed from carrying in a bar because other people make bad choices?

I don't think we should step on the rights of everyone as an effort to baby sit the public. As of right now I have the right to keep and bare arms EXCEPT when I go to a bar. Which means I have the right to defend myself from overwhelming force EXCEPT when I go to a bar. Even if I have not been drinking.

I don't like that idea. So should I not ever go to a bar? OK. What about a school campus? Should I drop out of college? Should I refuse to go to any federal building? Or should I have the inalienable, god given, "Right" to Keep and Bare Arms?

Pamiam · Jan 23, 2009

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dupe. See below.

Pamiam · Jan 23, 2009

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Pamiam wrote:

Certainly it's a personal responsibility issue.

On one hand, the weapons carrier has a personal responsibility to be responsible.

On the other hand, the bar owner has a personal responsibility to keep their own property safe for themselves and their customers.

If you get to know the bar owner and foster trust with them, it should be no problem.

On the other hand, if the bar owner doesn't know or trust you, they have every right to kick you out.

While you may have a right to public carry, you don't have a right to do it and drink in anyone's private bar if they say otherwise.

Please feel free to exercise your rights, but please also don't try to use them to trample on other's rights concerning their own private property.

If you were a close friend and you were in carrying sober in my house, I'd welcome you. If you had a glass or two of wine with dinner at my house, I'd still welcome your carry. If you came to my house and drank to intoxication, I'd ask you to hand over your firearms or leave.

If I did not know you, and you came to my house armed just to drink, I'd ask you to stow the weapon or leave.

Those are MY rights, not yours. If you want to carry drunk, or drink on the property of people with whom you have not fostered trust, you're wrong. Find someplace else to do it.

wrightme · Jan 23, 2009

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HPC9 wrote:

wrightme wrote:

jmlefler wrote:

wrightme,
1. See above comments.
2. Define 'shall not be infringed' (the 2A has no 'unless' clause attached).
3. "Common sense" does not appear in the Constitution, common defense does.
4. Also included in the Constitution is the mechanism for changing what we the people, wish to add, change and delete. Do not substitute an individuals judgment for an amendment.
Good discussion.
Carry on.

Click to expand...

Saw it, read it, believe it.
If you are going to carry, don't get intoxicated.
If you are going to get intoxicated, don't carry.
Failing to act appropriately is NOT a chance to take, even for self-defense. You are counting on the "individuals judgment," even though it is quite recognized that a certain level of intoxication alters the ability to exercise good judgment.

Click to expand...

While I do agree with the basics of "If you are going to carry, don't get intoxicated.
If you are going to get intoxicated, don't carry."

I still don't agree with banning guns from bars.

For example. I do not carry when I go to a bar because it is illegal for me (no cpl) here in MI. Now last night I went out "Drinking" I had 5 beers in 6 hours. That is heavy drinking for me. Most of the time I don't drink at all. I just go to socialize with friends. I was not by any means drunk at any time during the night.

Should I be disallowed from carrying in a bar because other people make bad choices?

I don't think we should step on the rights of everyone as an effort to baby sit the public. As of right now I have the right to keep and bare arms EXCEPT when I go to a bar. Which means I have the right to defend myself from overwhelming force EXCEPT when I go to a bar. Even if I have not been drinking.

I don't like that idea. So should I not ever go to a bar? OK. What about a school campus? Should I drop out of college? Should I refuse to go to any federal building? Or should I have the inalienable, god given, "Right" to Keep and Bare Arms?

I do not agree with banning guns in bars. I agree with not being intoxicated while carrying.

What should I do????

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