VT stabbing

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CRF250rider1000 wrote:

I just watched an online newscast of the press conference. There were seven people in the cafe in addition to the victim and murderer. It just amazes me how seven people could all just stand there and not even attempt to save this girl's life. They were just sitting down having coffee and he just stabs and fully decapitates her. It is just sickening how someone could do that. This just brings up a big "what if?" in my head. I can not wait until I am able to obtain my CHP:uhoh:

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Lots of things in that cafe could have been improvised weapons to stop what was happening to that poor girl.

But the worst outrage is being hamstrung by VaTech admin and not allowed to protect ones self. (witha CHP). I'm going to return to college for more training. I noticed in the Community College's weapons policy that I can't carry on campus, but I can lock my gun up in the car. Yeah, that does me a lot of good.

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eyesopened wrote:

I don't think I could just stand there if I see something like that happening. I may not be able to carry my firearm with me everywhere, but I have my pocket knife with me everywhere and if not that I at least have a pen. If anyone has seen Joe Pesci with a pen, then you know what I'm talking about...

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Yeah, I am sure I would have tried to help her. I have a cane. Imagine the damage done by an experienced martial artist (even a gimpy one!) on an attacker like that.

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I strongly suggest the title be changed. The victim was beheaded. Not only that, at the time of the arrest, the suspect was holding her head in his hand.

Read the affidavit for yourself.

Shock from killing ripples through Tech

Tech officials said the victim and suspect knew each other, and Xin listed Haiyang as an emergency contact. Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said he did not know the extent of their relationship or how long the two students knew each other.

They were sitting at a table having coffee at the Au Bon Pain cafe in the Graduate Life Center when the disturbance began shortly after 7 p.m.

Witnesses told police there was no sign of an argument between the two before the attack, Flinchum said. Seven people -- customers and Au Bon Pain staff -- saw the attack and fled the restaurant. Two people called 911.

Flinchum said, as far as he knows, no one tried to intervene in the attack. He declined to answer questions about whether Haiyang yelled anything before or during the atttack.

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I sat my 15 year old down tonight and had a conversation with him about this.

I told him that if he ever stood by and watch someone attack another person without doing something reasonable with in his power to stop, distract or help...don't come home.

We talked about improvised weapons, about how group think works and how failure of one to act may lead none to act.

Amazing. 7 people and nothing done.

Va Techs motto is Ut Prosim....we serve. I am ashamed to say "serve" for what??

Ric
VT Class of 87

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Ric in Richmond wrote:

I sat my 15 year old down tonight and had a conversation with him about this.

I told him that if he ever stood by and watch someone attack another person without doing something reasonable with in his power to stop, distract or help...don't come home.

We talked about improvised weapons, about how group think works and how failure of one to act may lead none to act.

Amazing. 7 people and nothing done.

Va Techs motto is Ut Prosim....we serve. I am ashamed to say "serve" for what??

Ric
VT Class of 87

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Good job. You might want to show him this wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Click on some of the links in the page too. It does a good job describing the psychology of why people don't act. If you are aware of these principles it may help you to avoid them yourself and to give you knowledge on how to get others standing around involved. One of the links specifically mentions calling out to individuals to help instead of making a general call to the whole crowd, etc.

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I understand he used a kitchen knife and decapitated her. Why aren't more people demandingthese dangerous weapons be bannedfrom campus? No one needs these evil instruments in schools and they should be strictly controlled. Youshould need a license to own one, restricted on how manyone can have, they should not be sharp, and limit the blade length to 1.5 inches. Noone shold be allowed to carry them concealed and they should do a background check when you buy one. Do you realize how many people are injuredor killed, especially children.

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Ric in Richmond wrote:

Va Techs motto is Ut Prosim....we serve. I am ashamed to say "serve" for what??

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You're reading too much into a motto and missing the obvious (movie line),

"Mr. Chambers... Mr. Chambers. Don't get on that ship. The rest of the book, 'To Serve Man'... It's a cookbook!"

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Repeater wrote:

SNIP...no one tried to intervene in the attack.

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I cannot imagine, carrying with me the rest of my life the shame of watching such a thing and doing nothing.

There are things on the internet I don't want to see. The Daniel Pearl, Nick Bergh videos are examples. You can't "un see" it once you've seen it. I just can't imagine being there and doing nothing. Everything in the environment becomes a tool to stop the attack.

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doug23838 wrote:

Everything in the environment becomes a tool to stop the attack.

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I was once told that while you may be unarmed (or disarmed), you are never defenseless.

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I'll say it again. You all are preaching to the choir. No matter how unsettling to you it is that no one did anything to help, that is the nature of sheep. I do not use that term in a derogatory manner, that is just how most humans are wired inside. I would argue there are more wolves (criminals) than true sheepdogs. I would even argue that most folks that have a CHP are not even sheepdogs.

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This link was posted in a thread dedicated to the article, but it applies here as well.

One reason that nobody intervened is that that is what they are taught to do.

Read this article. It explains a lot.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2323-LA-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m1d23-The-best-kept-secrets-of-the-antiviolencemovement-Part-V-What-does-it-ask-of-you

TFred

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TFred wrote:

This link was posted in a thread dedicated to the article, but it applies here as well.

One reason that nobody intervened is that that is what they are taught to do.

Read this article. It explains a lot.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2323-LA-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m1d23-The-best-kept-secrets-of-the-antiviolencemovement-Part-V-What-does-it-ask-of-you

TFred

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Excellent, well written article.

Yata hey

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A couple of great lines in this article:

These policies ask of us the suspension of our sovereign authority and the surrender of our safety to others who cannot keep a promise of safety.

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and

They do not allow or disallow guns, they affirm the right to carry in recognition that you do not check your civil rights or citizen authority at the Admissions office. Right to carry on campus is proving to be the better policy with every passing day. It's time to repeal gun bans everywhere.

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Great article.

[line]The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid.
Novus Ordo Seclorum

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Luckily school administrators are on top of things ... they rushed counselors to the scene, so yeah, that should solve everything. :quirky

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I rather doubt the bystanders could have done anything to save the girl.

A sharp knife applied by a strong person, delivered quickly, and suddenly, cuts deeply. The girl's chances of survival were probably zero by the time even an armed Marine could have reacted.

Still, it is disturbing that nobody was prepared to make sure the number of victims was limited to just one. Had this monster decided to take others, it appears he would have met no effective resistance.

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W.E.G. wrote:

I rather doubt the bystanders could have done anything to save the girl.

A sharp knife applied by a strong person, delivered quickly, and suddenly, cuts deeply. The girl's chances of survival were probably zero by the time even an armed Marine could have reacted.

Still, it is disturbing that nobody was prepared to make sure the number of victims was limited to just one. Had this monster decided to take others, it appears he would have met no effective resistance.

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Stabbed and dead is very different than beheaded. I understand the result is the same, but there's obviously a huge difference.

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Reverend73 wrote:

I'll say it again. You all are preaching to the choir. No matter how unsettling to you it is that no one did anything to help, that is the nature of sheep. I do not use that term in a derogatory manner, that is just how most humans are wired inside. I would argue there are more wolves (criminals) than true sheepdogs. I would even argue that most folks that have a CHP are not even sheepdogs.

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You hit the nail tight on the head Reverend.
A CHP isn't a substitute for guts. It's really sad that not one person tried to help.

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There are no such thing as sheep, sheepdogs, or wolves, at least not with only 2 legs. There are only humans, who can choose to be cowardly, heroic, or evil, and can even change their minds in midstream under some circumstances. It is not in your nature to act one way or another, it is up to you to decide. Free will and the ability to reason render all silly comparisons to animals false.

Some of those people in the coffee shop would act heroicly, if they had been mentaly prepared, or if someone else had grabbed them and led them to the fight. Leadership makes a difference. Someone has to be the first to act, to break the spell of the spectators. Sadly, no one did, at least in part because of their background and the university policies.

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I disagree. I believe it is inmost folks nature to be passifists, sheep, cowards, whatever you want to call it. Some of it is learned, I'm sure, but not all.Seeing another human violently attacking another human is the universal human phobia. This paralyzesmost folks, scares the crap out of them(literally and figuratively), and usually causes them to flee or submit. Most people also have a very strong aversion to injuring or killing another human, even when they are the ones being attacked. Through training and conditioning, this aversioncan be minimized or totally removed, but as we know, most folks don't get thiskind of training. This is whythe mental mindset that you may have to kill someone todayis very importantto anyonewho carries a weapon for self or common defense.

Telling someone what you expect them to do if everything starts going to hell is a good start, but to ensure action, they must be trained.



As an example, last July when our observation post came under heavy direct and indirect fire on a mountain top in afghanistan, onlytwo of the three of usreturnedfire, and the individual that failed to fire, was a trained infantry soldier. Fear paralyzes people, period.



So we can argue all we want that the 7 folks who witnessed this travesty should have done something, but the odds are, none of them had any training on what to do, and all were horrified into freezing or fleeing, which is what most of society would do.

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I think there are three people at Virginia Tech that need to step down.

Charles W. Steger, VT President
Chief Wendell Flinchum, VT Chief of police
Larry Hincker, Associate VP of VT University Relations

They are so concerned about keeping the students safe, but have not done so over the years. You only get so many chances. So, what is going to be number 3?

University leadership remains concerned about the welfare of the university student community...
http://tinyurl.com/fgykg