Gun Rights Lost if Under Indictment?

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I was indicted by the state of VA about seven months ago (VA 18.2-85). While in my new lawyer's office yesterday, old lawyer had a motorcycle accident, he and another lawyer stated they did not think I could possess or carry a weapon while under indictment. They could find no VA statute saying such. My CHP was improperly REVOKED, the VA statute only allows it to be "suspended" due to a pending felony. One of the lawyers said it may be a Federal Statute/Law/Rule whatever.

When the court order came that revoked my CHP it made no mention of not being able to possess or carry, it did say that it would be reported to NICS. When I was given bond there were no conditions other than I agreed to show up for all court dates. The bond was the minimum $1000 unsecured.

What's the scoop, can I or can't I keep and bear? It does seem strange that I cannot buy a gun now but I can keep the ones I have. No one told me I couldn't keep or bear a weapon. In fact the deputy that came to get my CHP told me I could just continue OCing since that's what I had been doing anyway.

I was also wondering if I could still purchase a BP revolver, I'd been thinking of getting a New Army 44 for years. Now may be the time if I can afford it.

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Neplusultra wrote:

SNIP I was indicted...

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Not sureabout the indictment angle.

The NICS angle only prevents dealer purchase. I'm not saying I know for sure that private purchase is still legal for you. Just that the NICS notification does not alone totally prevent purchase.

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Citizen wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

SNIP I was indicted...

Click to expand...

Not sureabout the indictment angle.

The NICS angle only prevents dealer purchase. I'm not saying I know for sure that private purchase is still legal for you. Just that the NICS notification does not alone totally prevent purchase.

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I looked through the lawyers list on the VCDL site and didn't really notice any of the gun-friendly lawyers saying they specialized in firearms law. I don't know who to ask or who I can trust to actually know with certainty. I was originally arrested on Federal charges, until I pointed out to them the law as interpreted by the ATF, oops! Neither the FBI agent, the US Prosecutor, nor the US Magistrate who signed the arrest warrant knew the law. The same thing is true with the State charges, except since I was indicted we have to go through a whole process before I walk, or so my new lawyer says. I'm examining the Danbus option play currently.

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Explosives? Huh?? :shock:

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Citizen wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

SNIP I was indicted...

Click to expand...

Not sureabout the indictment angle.

The NICS angle only prevents dealer purchase. I'm not saying I know for sure that private purchase is still legal for you. Just that the NICS notification does not alone totally prevent purchase.

Click to expand...

Don't you just love gun laws. So easy to understand and follow without unknowingly stepping in a big pile of steaming poo.

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GWRedDragon wrote:

Explosives? Huh?? :shock:

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Yeah, the fun stuff . Explosives, the forgotten part of 2A "arms".

I was making firecrackers for the fourth of July using TATP, which is not illegal to do in either VA state or federal law. Most people don't realize that. As long as you are making it for your own personal, non-business use and do not give it away or sell it, do not transport it and use it for legal purposes (ie no blowing up buildings) you are good to go. It's one of those things the government and the media would rather you not know.

So anyway, disgruntled employee #1 quits and reports me to the law. Apparently he gins the story up a bit. So 20-30 LEOs show up (FBI, VSP, Giles County Sheriff (including *the* Sheriff), Pearisburg PD, VSP bomb squad, VSP Hazmat, VSP Canine). It's a long and rather funny story but I can't really go into it much here. Let's just say I'm hoping Danbus can make as much as I do :lol:. My retirement plans are only for the Feds, so far the state has treated me fairly respectfully, unlike the Feds.

You can get some info about TATP here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide but BE AWARE the second and third paragraphs are full of it as are parts of the rest of the article. It is called "Mother of Satan" but not because of it's instability, it in fact is safer than mercury fulminate, which was "the" standard primary for over 100 years. It in fact got the nickname because it is a favored explosive of terrorists due to the ease in which it can be made and the widespread availability of it's components (you can find everything at Walmart). There is *a lot* of misinformation about this explosive. So don't read something and think it's true.

Edit: Grammer

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Neplusultra wrote:

GWRedDragon wrote:

Explosives? Huh?? :shock:

Click to expand...

Yeah, the fun stuff . Explosives, the forgotten part of 2A "arms".

I was making firecrackers for the fourth of July using TATP, which is not illegal to do in either VA state or federal law. Most people don't realize that. As long as you are making it for your own personal, non-business use and do not give it away or sell it, do not transport it and use it for legal purposes (ie no blowing up buildings) you are good to go. It's one of those things the government and the media would rather you not know.

So anyway, disgruntled employee #1 quits and reports me to the law. Apparently he gins the story up a bit. So 20-30 LEOs show up (FBI, VSP, Giles County Sheriff (including *the* Sheriff), Pearisburg PD, VSP bomb squad, VSP Hazmat, VSP Canine). It's a long and rather funny story but I can't really go into it much here. Let's just say I'm hoping Danbus can make as much as I do :lol:. My retirement plans are only for the Feds, so far the state has treated me fairly respectfully, unlike the Feds.

You can get some info about TATP here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide but BE AWARE the second and third paragraphs are full of it as are parts of the rest of the article. It is called "Mother of Satan" but not because of it's instability, it in fact is safer than mercury fulminate, which was "the" standard primary for over 100 years. It in fact got the nickname because it is a favored explosive of terrorists due to the ease in which it can be made and the widespread availability of it's components (you can find everything at Walmart). There is *a lot* of misinformation about this explosive. So don't read something and think it's true.

Edit: Grammer

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Ha! I'm not clicking on that link!!! Verizon would sell me out like cotton candy at the state fair!!!



TFred

(Just kidding... funnin' is all...)

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TFred wrote:

Ha! I'm not clicking on that link!!! Verizon would sell me out like cotton candy at the state fair!!!



TFred

(Just kidding... funnin' is all...)

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Dang! That was part of the plea offer, ten years suspended sentence, five years very restrictive probation, two years weekend roadside litter pickup, and entrapping as many OCers as possible :^). Not to mention loss of gun and voting rights. I laughed when I read them. Discovery was even funnier. Laughed out loud.

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TFred wrote:

Ha! I'm not clicking on that link!!! Verizon would sell me out like cotton candy at the state fair!!!

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TFred, don't be afraid, come over to the dark side.... It's a blast :^)!

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Neplusultra wrote:

While in my new lawyer's office yesterday, old lawyer had a motorcycle accident, he and another lawyer stated they did not think I could possess or carry a weapon while under indictment.

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You know, it seems to me it would be a violation of 5A due process guarantees.

Denial of an enumerated right without conviction/prior to a conviction.

I wouldn't put it pastthe government to do so. The didit under the Lautenburglaw for domestic violence.

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Might be getting somewhere here.

Here is a link to a very respectable blog, the Volokh Conspiracy:

http://volokh.com/posts/1231712651.shtml

It starts with discussion about an entirely different type crime, but mentions "among others" and even cites and links to theUSC section.

Then it quotes a court opinion.

And there is some information about other court opinions on the matter at the bottom of the blog post.

Its a little too much information for me to be able to read it quickly for applicability to your question. Maybe turn your attorney onto this.

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Citizen wrote:

Neplusultra wrote:

While in my new lawyer's office yesterday, old lawyer had a motorcycle accident, he and another lawyer stated they did not think I could possess or carry a weapon while under indictment.

Click to expand...

You know, it seems to me it would be a violation of 5A due process guarantees.

Denial of an enumerated right without conviction/prior to a conviction.

I wouldn't put it pastthe government to do so. The didit under the Lautenburglaw for domestic violence.

Click to expand...

You Sir have hit upon it. I have come to the same conclusion and so am again OCing after a one day hiatus. My assumption is as yours *plus* why did they not inform me if such was true??? If a problem comes up it sounds like a SC case to me and a thorough smack down for those involved. If it is illegal all they had to do was just let me know for Pete's sake and I would comply, good grief.....

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Citizen wrote:

Might be getting somewhere here.

Here is a link to a very respectable blog, the Volokh Conspiracy:

http://volokh.com/posts/1231712651.shtml

It starts with discussion about an entirely different type crime, but mentions "among others" and even cites and links to theUSC section.

Then it quotes a court opinion.

And there is some information about other court opinions on the matter at the bottom of the blog post.

Its a little too much information for me to be able to read it quickly for applicability to your question. Maybe turn your attorney onto this.

Click to expand...

Sounds not too unlike the automatic extra? due process confiscation of property for alleged drug law violations. I'm very surprised how much our rights are still intact for fringe violators but am very distressed over how much civil rights have been abandoned for certain "unacceptable" violations such as drugs. It appears to me from the experience I've had that "explosives" is one of these areas where judges and prosecutors are willing to go "beyond" the law to prosecute. Rex Lex or Lex Rex. Major issues here.

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Best of luck friend.

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Neplusultra wrote:

two years weekend roadside litter pickup

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we have room for ya! http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=20098&forum_id=54&jump_to=349224#p349224

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Neplusultra wrote:

GWRedDragon wrote:

Explosives? Huh?? :shock:

Click to expand...

Yeah, the fun stuff . Explosives, the forgotten part of 2A "arms".

I was making firecrackers for the fourth of July using TATP, which is not illegal to do in either VA state or federal law. Most people don't realize that. As long as you are making it for your own personal, non-business use and do not give it away or sell it, do not transport it and use it for legal purposes (ie no blowing up buildings) you are good to go. It's one of those things the government and the media would rather you not know.

So anyway, disgruntled employee #1 quits and reports me to the law. Apparently he gins the story up a bit. So 20-30 LEOs show up (FBI, VSP, Giles County Sheriff (including *the* Sheriff), Pearisburg PD, VSP bomb squad, VSP Hazmat, VSP Canine). It's a long and rather funny story but I can't really go into it much here. Let's just say I'm hoping Danbus can make as much as I do :lol:. My retirement plans are only for the Feds, so far the state has treated me fairly respectfully, unlike the Feds.

... removed

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I cannot find where you cannot have firecrackers. I always thought this was the case in Virginia.

The code excludes fireworks but only as a device.It appears they might have you onthe explosive material itself. It is not written in a way that says you can do it in any manner. So you can make the device but you cannot have/make/use the material.

It is my understanding that the courts can revoke your CC permit for any reason. And being charged with a felony is a pretty good reason to me even if I would disagree. Just like you cannot have weapons while a protective order is in place. In neither case have you actually been convicted of a crime.

Not that this is going to actually stop people from picking up a gun and causing harm to someone else while they wait for trial. Pointless to me but I guess it is a reaction to all those incidents in the past where people waiting trial paid someone a visit and caused them some harm. A dead witness or victim cannot testify against you in court.



http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-85

§ 18.2-85. Manufacture, possession, use, etc., of fire bombs or explosive materials or devices; penalties.

For the purpose of this section:

"Device" means any instrument, apparatus or contrivance, including its component parts, that is capable of producing or intended to produce an explosion but shall not include fireworks as defined in § 27-95.

"Explosive material" means any chemical compound, mechanical mixture or device that is commonly used or can be used for the purpose of producing an explosion and which contains any oxidizing and combustive agents or other ingredients in such proportions, quantities or packaging that an ignition by fire, friction, concussion, percussion, detonation or by any part of the compound or mixture may cause a sudden generation of highly heated gases. These materials include, but are not limited to, gunpowder, powders for blasting, high explosives, blasting materials, fuses (other than electric circuit breakers), detonators, and other detonating agents and smokeless powder.

"Fire bomb" means any container of a flammable material such as gasoline, kerosene, fuel oil, or other chemical compound, having a wick composed of any material or a device or other substance which, if set or ignited, is capable of igniting such flammable material or chemical compound but does not include a similar device commercially manufactured and used solely for the purpose of illumination or cooking.

"Hoax explosive device" means any device which by its design, construction, content or characteristics appears to be or to contain a bomb or other destructive device or explosive but which is an imitation of any such device or explosive.

Any person who

(i) possesses materials with which fire bombs or explosive materials or devices can be made

with the intent to manufacture fire bombs or explosive materials or devices

or,

(ii) manufactures, transports, distributes, possesses or uses a fire bomb or explosive materials or devices

shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

Any person who constructs, uses, places, sends, or causes to be sent any hoax explosive device so as to intentionally cause another person to believe that such device is a bomb or explosive shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

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Devils Advocate wrote:

It is my understanding that the courts can revoke your CC permit for any reason.

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What is the point of being a "shall issue" state if the court may revoke your permit without cause? Surely, "any reason" is not significantly different than "without cause".

TFred

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TFred wrote:

Devils Advocate wrote:

It is my understanding that the courts can revoke your CC permit for any reason.

Click to expand...

What is the point of being a "shall issue" state if the court may revoke your permit without cause? Surely, "any reason" is not significantly different than "without cause".

TFred

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They shall issue based on the fact that you meet certain criteria and are not DISQUALIFIED from having such a permit. So most everyone that applies will get one unlike other states that flat out refuse to issue for no good reason.

Once you have it you are SUPPOSED to be a model and law abiding citizen.As long as you are not arrested for anything there would be no reason to revoke it.

In the OP's case he did something that just might be a felony and his ability to have a permit means nothing when you think that a felony conviction means he no longer can have any firearms.

Why they suspend a permit before the conviction is beyond me. But they do it for many other things as well. I am sure there is a valid reason the law was created but unless I do a ton of research or ask the guy that pushed it forward I have no true answer to give.

But the law is the law and it is in black and white before we break it. The OP believes he was in the right to make explosives in his home but it seems some others did not see it that way. In reading the code it seems the OP was doing something unlawful even if he had no evil intent. He is going to havea good criminal attorney speak with the commonwealth attorney and see what plays out.

The state lawidentifies that taking the permit was legit in this case.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit:

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Statute is only law if it is authorized by the Constitution...

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

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Devils Advocate wrote:

TFred wrote:

Devils Advocate wrote:

It is my understanding that the courts can revoke your CC permit for any reason.

Click to expand...

What is the point of being a "shall issue" state if the court may revoke your permit without cause? Surely, "any reason" is not significantly different than "without cause".

TFred

Click to expand...

They shall issue based on the fact that you meet certain criteria and are not DISQUALIFIED from having such a permit. So most everyone that applies will get one unlike other states that flat out refuse to issue for no good reason.

Once you have it you are SUPPOSED to be a model and law abiding citizen.As long as you are not arrested for anything there would be no reason to revoke it.

In the OP's case he did something that just might be a felony and his ability to have a permit means nothing when you think that a felony conviction means he no longer can have any firearms.

Why they revokea permit before the conviction is beyond me. But they do it for many other things as well. I am sure there is a valid reason the law was created but unless I do a ton of research or ask the guy that pushed it forward I have no true answer to give.

But the law is the law and it is in black and white before we break it. The OP believes he was in the right to make explosives in his home but it seems some others did not see it that way. In reading the code it seems the OP was doing something unlawful even if he had no evil intent. He is going to havea good criminal attorney speak with the commonwealth attorney and see what plays out.

The state lawidentifies that taking the permit was legit in this case.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit:

17. An individual who has a felony charge pending or a charge pending for an offense listed in subdivision 14 or 15.
​

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The code only permits the trial court or the court that issued the CHP to "suspend" the permit, not revoke it. So the judge erred in that regard. I also fail to understand why the permit should be suspended before due process, especially since there was no indication of evil intent.

As far as the lawfulness of the possession of explosives you need to read further down in the statute.

Nothing in this section shall prohibit the authorized manufacture, transportation, distribution, use or possession of any material, substance, or device by a member of the armed forces of the United States, fire fighters or law-enforcement officers, nor shall it prohibit the manufacture, transportation, distribution, use or possession of any material, substance or device to be used solely for scientific research, educational purposes or for any lawful purpose, subject to the provisions of �� 27-97 and 27-97.2.

A farmer can make a 50 pound bomb to blow a stump out of his field and do so legally in both VA and Federal law. This statute says so and the ATF's explosives regs say so. "Any lawful purpose" covers pretty much everything. Including having fun. I do believe that's still legal isn't it :^)?