Open Carry Not An Option?

imported post

I recently attended a NRA pistol ("First Step") classwhich was taught byan official NRAinstructor. The class was approximately five and one half hours long andas the title implies it was very basic. Althoughthe class was pleasantand donewell I can't help but be a bit disturbed with the manner in which carrying options werepresented.In fact there were no options. It was110% conceal carry.

Now please, for the love of all the holy and unholy firearms godsplease understand that it is not at all my intention to in any way bash the NRA, the instructor or anyone else associated with the class I attended. I had a good time and even learned a thing or two.

In the same breath as conceal carry was presented it wasstressed that everyone should get a LTCF which I agree, knowing that if youtravel via caryou are legally bound to have here in PA. AlthoughI have to say it was strange that our LTCF was referred to asa CCW by a senior staff memberwhen here in PAit is a LTCF (License To Carry Firearms) not a CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) permit. I just thought that this should be a well known fact in such circles.

That aside I couldn't control the urge to bring up the viable option of Open Carry. Right, so here I go.

As the instructor started to change to a different topic I interrupted and said, something to the effect of "Wait a minute here, what about Open Carry?" And the answer was something like, "what about it"and "you can't do that".

Are you frick'n kidding me?:what: Which is what I thought to myself. :banghead:

I proceeded to say that it is our 2nd amendment right and it is legal, blah, blah, blah...You heard it all before. Well,when it was all said and done the senior member ofthestore (I think it was the owner) whowas there assisting the instructor said,"yeah you can carry open but see how far you get. You would nevermake it from your house to here carryinglike that."

Well, with that saida fewclass mates chuckled and agreed sayingin a matter of fact way that they wouldjustcarry conceal. Basically they threw up their hands and said to hell with open carry. I waited for an opening between all the jabber and said thatLaw Enforcement Officers should know the law and if they do then they are are breaking the law by arresting anyone just for Open Carrying. And that theyshould be held accountable to the law as we are. But the issue seemed to beresolved in the solidarity of those who threw up their hands in submission and the class moved on.

I'm not surprised.:quirky

I have just afew weeks more until I get my first pistol (Glock 19) and Open Carry. I look forward tothe company of others in my area who Open Carry as well.

imported post

That's a discouraging story.

I think I would have brought up the Melanie Hain case, which she won.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20081212_Gun-toting_woman_divides_community.html?page=1&c=y

That's from Lebanon, PA and a legal precedent has been set; she won her case and her LTCF was restored to her. Moreover, she's now suing the county. There are many threads in these forums with more details.

It sounds like the people in your area just need some encouragement. Go to the PA section of the boards here (Stories from the States) and try to get involved with the next OC meeting/luncheon they have. (I know ID and WA have them, so I'm guessing PA does too)

If PA doesn't, then organize some! Perhaps even encourage the instructor from the class to come along (even if he will not OC) just to see how things actually work when several people are in a group OCing. (It's amazing how polite everyone is.)

imported post

I did in fact bring up the Melanie Hain case but it was afterwardswhile waiting for our turn at the range.

Many of my classmatesseem to havelittle or no ideaof what the law entails regarding firearms, andequally what others before us (as Mrs. Hain) endure regarding ourrights. It was an eye opener for me. When I said that open carry is legal in PA eyes widen and some people even had to bend over to pick up their jaws. I would think that if anyonemakes the decision to open carryand/or concealed one would be more interested in the law and our rights. It's a life changing decision in my view -- one of the most important we can make in our lives.

Anyways, there was a gentlemen who spoke upstating thatyou can'tcarry in schools after I said you can open carry just about anywhere.Itshowed that he knew something. Iacknowledged hiscomment but said that I wasn't so sure that his statement was totally correct stating that their is something about carryingfor other lawful purpose when it comes to schools and that it could be argued. I said to all of them not to take my word for it and to find out for themselves. Althoughit would seem thatthis gentlemenalready dismissed me as maybe some type of trouble maker or even a crazed activist. He seemed to be annoyed at the idea that someone is pro Open Carry.I got the feeling that he just doesn't care about those of us who consider Open Carry a viable optionso long as he still has his "right" to conceal carry who cares about open carry. And yes, it pisses me off but I definitely won't lose any sleep over it.

There were a few who did in fact seem interested and of course I offered this forum to them. Too bad my printer is broken other-wise Iwould have passed out some of those PA Gun Right filers. I'll get that remedied soon.

There arein fact people here in my area who are well versed in open and concealed carry andmuch better then I am atdefending our rights. They are very proactive and great 2nd amendment defenders. I just recently met such a group.

All this is still new to me and I'm just nowbeginning toinvolve myselfand plan on attendingmore local eventsin the near future.

Thanks for the good advice shad0wfax.

imported post

I find it surprising that such items were discussed in a "First Steps" course. It sounds more appropriate for a CC permit class, than for a "First Steps" course.

I would guess that the reasonable explanation of the source for the "carry options" portion is a personal viewpoint of the instructor. It may be an idea to contact the NRA to see if the material presented is part of the course curriculum or only personal opinion of the instructor. You can check the NRA training webpages, and contact the NRA Training Counselor in your area for information also.

imported post

Wow I guess I lucked out with my instructor a few years ago. He gave us the low down on both carry types, Open and Concealed. Later I found out that he is one of the officers of a local group called VCDL (Virginia Citizens Defense League). Not all NRA instructors are created equal .

imported post

wrightme wrote:

I find it surprising that such items were discussed in a "First Steps" course. It sounds more appropriate for a CC permit class, than for a "First Steps" course.

I would guess that the reasonable explanation of the source for the "carry options" portion is a personal viewpoint of the instructor. It may be an idea to contact the NRA to see if the material presented is part of the course curriculum or only personal opinion of the instructor. You can check the NRA training webpages, and contact the NRA Training Counselor in your area for information also.

Click to expand...

It was the first time I've ever attended any type of firearm training class since the early eighties when I was in the US Army, so I wasn't surprised that it was discussed.I'mjust not real surewhatis or isn't appropriate to teach, or even if there is such a thing. Though one thing I am sure about is that Open Carry is alegal way tocarry (with or) without aLTCFhere in PA (must have one to carry in Philadelphia), though of course there are limitations either way -- which in my opinion should be abolished.

This is whyI didn't think it odd or inappropriate thatthe instructortouched base on "how to carry". Maybe it's not something on the NRA "First Step" to-dobooks but perhaps it was mentioned only because a student askedwhat type of holsterto use and the instructor said he would go over that later in class. Whenthe instructor finally didit was only abouta one minute instruction.In that minute it was said that you have to conceal carry, as ifit were the gospel and the only possible way to carry. Other then this there was a prior indirect mention of conceal carry.

The instructor was telling us a story of how his son had a gun on his hip and suddenly realized that it was in plain view. He emphasized how his son quickly covered the gun,as if he wasinfear that someone may see it and seconds away from a nuclear melt down.It must have beena real intense heartrending nail biting experience I'm sure. :quirky

imported post

As a certified NRA instructor for handguns and self defense, I can assure you that this instructor was not following NRA guidelines. In the first place, as was said above, carry options are not part of the "First Steps" lesson plans at all. The instructor is free to offer his opinion, of course, but it must be presented as such.

The First Steps class is simply an introduction to the handgun and safety, nothing more. It should never be regarded as sufficient training for either carrying or self defense.

The laws regarding self defense, etc. are not a part of this course and it is vital that each person who carries a gun knows the legal and ethical requirements backwards and forward!

If anyone has this kind of experience with an NRA course or instructor, it is so important to let the NRA know about it. Our training program is only as good as all of us make it. A problem that is not identified cannot be corrected.

I'm just a nobody local instructor, but please let me know if I can help. I have no problem rocking boats and kicking up a stink.

imported post

NRA, Concealed Carry instructors ( NOT ALL ) aren't going to support OC during their class.
Why?
Theirmaking money fromthose classes, teaching new instructors etc.., they are a business with goals.
This is the same reason the NRA makes back door deals with the anti's, if there isn't a fight they aren't making money

Think of it this way,will a McD's mgr tell you not to order the fries because you don't need them.
If there was a required OC class the NRA would be all over it.

ETA:
Classes, testing, licenses, and things are all just barricades to keeping people from being able to defend themselves and family.

Self defense is a basic human right.

imported post

MamaLiberty wrote:

As a certified NRA instructor for handguns and self defense, I can assure you that this instructor was not following NRA guidelines. In the first place, as was said above, carry options are not part of the "First Steps" lesson plans at all. The instructor is free to offer his opinion, of course, but it must be presented as such.

The First Steps class is simply an introduction to the handgun and safety, nothing more. It should never be regarded as sufficient training for either carrying or self defense.

The laws regarding self defense, etc. are not a part of this course and it is vital that each person who carries a gun knows the legal and ethical requirements backwards and forward!

If anyone has this kind of experience with an NRA course or instructor, it is so important to let the NRA know about it. Our training program is only as good as all of us make it. A problem that is not identified cannot be corrected.

I'm just a nobody local instructor, but please let me know if I can help. I have no problem rocking boats and kicking up a stink.

Click to expand...

How nice of you. Thank you very much for your offer.

No, the carry option was absolutely not presented as his opinion. Although after and only afterI interrupted and said that Open Carry is legal there was a bit of a stammer in his words and thats when his assistant chimed in. Only then,after I cut in,one may conclude that open carry is another option, though one that is not "endorsed" or seen as a viable alternative by the NRA and or experienced gun owners who carry.The mannerin which my statement wasseemingly dismissed by many students I got the impression thatmany of the studentsconsider what I said to be at fault. Not surprisingly. He is after all an NRA instructor with many years of experience (a nice guy too) -- a more viable knowledge base on the subject with more experience then little'ol me.Hell, and why would they think any other way? I'msomewhat "new" to all this gun stuff as many who were in attendance.

I must point out in the defence of the instructor that someone in the class asked a legal question and our instructor was quick to point out that he was not a lawyer andcould not and would not answerany such questions. Kudos to him for that.

I did intend to take an advancedpistol training courseASAP. The gun shopwhere I took the First Step class as well as the NRA both co-sponsor such a class, butright now I'm not sure where I want togo. Maybe I'll just learn on my own and/or meet up with others who are well trained and learn from them as well. There's a fewways to learn something well other then by "official" means.

imported post

This post makes it obvious that you are confusing the issues. As an NRA instructor has stated, the OC/CC issue is NOT a curriculum issue, especially for the First Step Pistol course. As stated, the mention of it is an opinion of that specific person, without regard to a course of instruction. The anecdotal evidence presented proves a bias that is not in keeping with applicable law. Stating that the bias is due to some NRA position is not proven.

The course in question was not a CC course. It was a basic course, designed for first-time pistol owners. If that course curriculum is similar to the NRA First Step Rifle course, it really is very basic.

Parts identification and familiarity, safe operation, and basic range techniques, to paraphrase it a bit. Followed by cleaning of the pistol. It isn't about carry techniques, nor should it be presented as such. As I mentioned earlier, if the OP has further questions about the course content, and about what the instructor should or can present, the next contact should be the NRA Training Counselor for that area. Pending such contact and clarification, I have to believe that the mention of CC/OC is simply a personal view of the instructor.



Agent19 wrote:

NRA, Concealed Carry instructors ( NOT ALL ) aren't going to support OC during their class.
Why?
Theirmaking money fromthose classes, teaching new instructors etc.., they are a business with goals.
This is the same reason the NRA makes back door deals with the anti's, if there isn't a fight they aren't making money

Think of it this way,will a McD's mgr tell you not to order the fries because you don't need them.
If there was a required OC class the NRA would be all over it.

ETA:
Classes, testing, licenses, and things are all just barricades to keeping people from being able to defend themselves and family.

Self defense is a basic human right.

Click to expand...

imported post

Agent19 wrote:

NRA, Concealed Carry instructors ( NOT ALL ) aren't going to support OC during their class.
Why? Theirmaking money fromthose classes, teaching new instructors etc.., they are a business with goals.
This is the same reason the NRA makes back door deals with the anti's, if there isn't a fight they aren't making money

Think of it this way,will a McD's mgr tell you not to order the fries because you don't need them. If there was a required OC class the NRA would be all over it.

ETA:
Classes, testing, licenses, and things are all just barricades to keeping people from being able to defend themselves and family.

Self defense is a basic human right.

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as an NRA concealed carry instructor. Certified instructors teach Pistol, Personal protection series, rifle, reloading and black powder and home safety (not a firearms class). Concealed carry is taught only in the Personal Protection outside the Home course. Personally, I believe that course concentrates far too much on CC, but it is the appropriate class to address OC as well. You should discuss the course material with the instructor beforehand if you want to be sure.

The concealed carry requirements vary in each state, so different classes may or may not be adapted to suit those requirements, of course. This does not change the fact that the First Steps course is not an appropriate place to teach any carry method.

And I agree with you fully that the very idea of a "license" to carry in any manner is bogus and futile on so many levels we won't go there. I have no interest in promoting them at all, but I offer my services to those who wish to get a CC license because that is their choice, not mine.

Personally, I don't - and I don't know of any other instructor who does - make a dime offering any of this training. Most of us do it because we believe that people should have the opportunity to learn how to shoot safely and well. I teach mostly novice women about guns and how to defend themselves and their children.

I also agree that the NRA is less than ideal in any measure, especially politically, but they do offer the best overall - and nationally available - training that is affordable to almost everyone. I've taught many who could not afford even my low fees, and done it gladly. We don't get a lot of publicity for it. Mostly we are volunteers, charging just enough to cover expenses and, sometimes, our own training and equipment.

As I said before. If you believe that any NRA instructor is not behaving properly or is abusing your trust or the NRA class guidelines, talk to them about it. Let them know that you will make a complaint to the NRA if you are not satisfied with his answers. If he is obnoxious about it, you can even spread the word at your local gun shops (their prime source of referrals) and sporting good stores, etc. Word of mouth will tarnish their reputation fast.

imported post

spawnbringer wrote:

How nice of you. Thank you very much for your offer.

I must point out in the defence of the instructor that someone in the class asked a legal question and our instructor was quick to point out that he was not a lawyer andcould not and would not answerany such questions. Kudos to him for that.

I did intend to take an advancedpistol training courseASAP. The gun shopwhere I took the First Step class as well as the NRA both co-sponsor such a class, butright now I'm not sure where I want togo. Maybe I'll just learn on my own and/or meet up with others who are well trained and learn from them as well. There's a fewways to learn something well other then by "official" means.

Click to expand...

Glad this guy was not a total jerk. Maybe you can talk to him privately and get an idea where he's coming from.

I sincerely hope you will go ahead and take at least some kind of training course. I don't know where you live, but this instructor can't be the only one in the area. Look at the NRA website and see if you can locate another class. And the NRA isn't the only outfit offering training either. Google it and see what you can find.

You may well be able to learn more about gun handling on your own, but that will not prepare you for the legal and ethical ramifications of being armed, however you carry it. You should also at least consider the difference between target shooting, and all of the many dimensions of self defense. They are not the same.

And last, remember that if you practice a bad habit or a bad tactic, you will have a much harder time unlearning it and relearning a better way - even if you ever become aware that what you are doing is a potential problem. Far better to learn good tactics and good habits the first time around.

I'd like a dime for every student who moans that they wish they'd learned things right the first time.

imported post

Agent19 wrote:

NRA, Concealed Carry instructors ( NOT ALL ) aren't going to support OC during their class.
Why?
Theirmaking money fromthose classes, teaching new instructors etc.., they are a business with goals.
This is the same reason the NRA makes back door deals with the anti's, if there isn't a fight they aren't making money

Think of it this way,will a McD's mgr tell you not to order the fries because you don't need them.
If there was a required OC class the NRA would be all over it.

ETA:
Classes, testing, licenses, and things are all just barricades to keeping people from being able to defend themselves and family.

Self defense is a basic human right.

Click to expand...

Absolutely. I hear you Loud & Clear Agent19. Correct. Not to say that all or even many instructors are motivated in such a way but I'm sure there are those that are and even a part of the NRAthat is out of necessity and/or even greed. It's human nature and part of the way things work. How can I say or justify that? Well, from reading and experience.

Immediately I got the impression when I first started to inquire about carrying a few years ago that in the "gun world" there are those who havean elitist attitude whopromote"official" gun education, claiming that it's a necessity. In my opinionsuch elitism ispromoted by those who profit from such "necessities". Anyway, this is a whole separate topic that is one of great importance. I continue to read many different threads and articles on the subject. I find myself not wanting any mandatory official classes or instruction in order for gun purchase and carry. However,at the same time I would like to seethose who have guns to also have enough sense to know and understand thateducationin the use of anything so life changing such as firearms is a given.Train, train, and train some more. Good habits and repetition.

imported post

MamaLiberty wrote:

spawnbringer wrote:

How nice of you. Thank you very much for your offer.

I must point out in the defence of the instructor that someone in the class asked a legal question and our instructor was quick to point out that he was not a lawyer andcould not and would not answerany such questions. Kudos to him for that.

I did intend to take an advancedpistol training courseASAP. The gun shopwhere I took the First Step class as well as the NRA both co-sponsor such a class, butright now I'm not sure where I want togo. Maybe I'll just learn on my own and/or meet up with others who are well trained and learn from them as well. There's a fewways to learn something well other then by "official" means.

Click to expand...

Glad this guy was not a total jerk. Maybe you can talk to him privately and get an idea where he's coming from.

I sincerely hope you will go ahead and take at least some kind of training course. I don't know where you live, but this instructor can't be the only one in the area. Look at the NRA website and see if you can locate another class. And the NRA isn't the only outfit offering training either. Google it and see what you can find.

You may well be able to learn more about gun handling on your own, but that will not prepare you for the legal and ethical ramifications of being armed, however you carry it. You should also at least consider the difference between target shooting, and all of the many dimensions of self defense. They are not the same.

And last, remember that if you practice a bad habit or a bad tactic, you will have a much harder time unlearning it and relearning a better way - even if you ever become aware that what you are doing is a potential problem. Far better to learn good tactics and good habits the first time around.

I'd like a dime for every student who moans that they wish they'd learned things right the first time.

Click to expand...

Oh absolutely MamaLiberty. He was no jerk. I like the guy. In fact I would recommend him but would first make it clear that Open Carry is a legal option -- No matter who disapproves or otherwise seems against it.

I'll most definitely still pursue training, and even via the NRA. I'm not deterred in the lest bit about training. You can never train or know enough. I'll see what's what in my area and move forward with it.Hell, we're talking about weapons here. It's almost unimaginable to think that anyone would not want to be the best they can possiblybe with the use of their weapons. Oh, did I say weapon? Yeah I did huh? Okay, gun even. Weapon... Heh, that's whole new issue and story.

imported post

There was a time when it was considered inappropriate to Conceal Carry a handgun - now we have the Politically Correct (yea right) crowd coming full circle saying it is inappropriate to Open Carry.

Open Carry is the purest form of the 2nd Amendment!!!

imported post

spawnbringer - I understand where you're coming from. When I took a CCW class last fall and inquired about open carry, the instructor was very misinformed about legalities of it and was evidently against the practice; she gave incorrect information on the status of it and advised against it. I had only asked about it to get her opinion of it, and I was not too surprised to hear she was against it. She did afterall rake in about $1400 that day for CCW training, and near as I could tell she did it once a month. That's quite a chunk of change for only working 8-16 hours a month.

I think in addition to the fact that CCW is a business for a lot of folks, it also gives them plenty of excuse to hide their rights and try to conform to the current standard of "normal". "Normal" people don't carry guns in society's mind, so keeping it out of sight helps them feel better about themselves. The irony is my sister has a saying: people are too involved with themselves to care about what other people look like. I've found that to be the truth for the short period I have been open carrying - I have only been 'noticed' once, and the person asking thought I was a police officer.

I learned long ago not to give a hoot about what people thought of me, so I don't care whether or not I look "normal". I do conceal occasionally, but it has more to do with wardrobe than anything.

imported post

spawnbringer wrote:

Oh, did I say weapon? Yeah I did huh? Okay, gun even. Weapon... Heh, that's whole new issue and story.

Click to expand...

Oh yes, one of the whimpy, wishy washy, idiocy parts of the NRA teaching materials. This strange obsession to avoid the word weapon. So typical of the NRA... must not "offend" anyone.

Needless to say, I tell my students what the NRA material says about it, and we don't mention it again. If the word gets used... who cares. I don't worry about it, and none of my absolute novices has been bothered by it either.

If they are coming to learn how to shoot a gun, they already KNOW it is a "weapon."

We talk quite a bit about tools. Tools such as screwdrivers and hammers as well as guns that can be used for either good or evil. All can be "weapons" as well.

imported post

Lol... You got it!

Whenthe instructor kept insisting that agun is not a weapon I just had to speak up and insist that it is a weapon. Hesounded like someone indenial. It was just too annoying.

I will carry a gun as a weapon because to me that's it's purpose.I don't want to carry a tool. Hell, I have one and on occasion I'm even referred to as one but for cry'n out loud! Oh man, it was funny. Well, I thought it was anyways. Though everyone in the class seem to be hanging on his every word and was okay with carrying a tool but for me. I don't care, I think I'll carry a weapon and always remember what that entails.

Good job though. You win a cookie! :celebrate

imported post

I will carry a gun as a weapon because to me that's it's purpose.I don't want to carry a tool.

Click to expand...

I think you misunderstand me. Any weapon is ALSO a tool. Any weapon OR tool can be used for good or evil. It isn't "just" a tool, it is a very important tool - the most effective and portable tool for self defense.

Some tools are fairly safe (like a spoon) and some are highly dangerous, like a table saw or a welding machine. The relative safety or danger rests in the operator, however, not really the tool. Someone can be killed using a spoon, and a home can be built using the saw. It's all in the hands of the humans who use them.

Some tools are general purpose, with many uses, and some are highly specialized. A gun is a very specialized tool, made for only one purpose - to throw small projectiles at high speed for various distances. What that projectile hits is the work or job the tool is put to, but has nothing to do with what it was made for. That is the business of the one who operates the tool.

So, while it is important to recognize a gun as a weapon, it is also just as important to see it as a tool, both of which rely on the human hands holding or using it for the use to which it is put.

I'm not trying to preach here, but just feel it is important to understand this concept. The anti-gun folks so often try to use the emotional and inaccurate idea that a gun is somehow more dangerous than anything else in our hands, so it is vital to show them that guns are tools and not really any more dangerous than the people who hold them - or a screwdriver, etc.

imported post

MamaLiberty wrote:

spawnbringer wrote:

Oh, did I say weapon? Yeah I did huh? Okay, gun even. Weapon... Heh, that's whole new issue and story.

Click to expand...

Oh yes, one of the whimpy, wishy washy, idiocy parts of the NRA teaching materials. This strange obsession to avoid the word weapon. So typical of the NRA... must not "offend" anyone.

Needless to say, I tell my students what the NRA material says about it, and we don't mention it again. If the word gets used... who cares. I don't worry about it, and none of my absolute novices has been bothered by it either.

If they are coming to learn how to shoot a gun, they already KNOW it is a "weapon."

We talk quite a bit about tools. Tools such as screwdrivers and hammers as well as guns that can be used for either good or evil. All can be "weapons" as well.

Click to expand...

What can he say?? Everybody in the military (or at least i seemed to be) called it a weapon. You didn't call it a gun ( This is my weapon, this is my gun......):celebrate