San Diego Open Carry Meet

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They have changed their position slightly. They will let us retain control and demonstrate the unloaded situation of the gun without surrendering control of the weapon.

This will help eliminate the risk of a serial number check and a wants/warrants.

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Theseus wrote:

They have changed their position slightly. They will let us retain control and demonstrate the unloaded situation of the gun without surrendering control of the weapon.

This will help eliminate the risk of a serial number check and a wants/warrants.

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I'm surprised they're going to let mere subjects handle their firearms in the presence of the ruling class!

But seriously, until the laws and mentality among CA LE changes, I won't handle my firearm in public, except when at the gun counter at the sporting goods store, or when engaged in target shooting or hunting. Most other states, if the officer said they were OK with it, I would. Not in CA - not yet.

Once that firearm is out of the holster, you're opened up to all sorts of antics. Did the camera stay on you the whole time, or did an officer 'accidently' step in front of the camera man to block the shot? Now it's a bunch of cops' word against a bunch of 'gun nuts' as to whether you pointed your gun in an unsafe direction.

The bottom line is I don't trust people who have a reputation for abusing power and who are all-to-eager to perform the maximum infringements they can get away with. Trust has to be earned, IMO. Nobody gets a free pass, not even the cops. My experience (5 years working with LE, plus the incident last year) has proven me right.

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

The bottom line is I don't trust people who have a reputation for abusing power and who are all-to-eager to perform the maximum infringements they can get away with. Trust has to be earned, IMO. Nobody gets a free pass, not even the cops. My experience (5 years working with LE, plus the incident last year) has proven me right.

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Do you have a specific case against the San Diego Police department that you would like to share or are you simply extending your paranoia to all Law Enforcement?

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flintlock tom wrote:

CA_Libertarian wrote:

The bottom line is I don't trust people who have a reputation for abusing power and who are all-to-eager to perform the maximum infringements they can get away with. Trust has to be earned, IMO. Nobody gets a free pass, not even the cops. My experience (5 years working with LE, plus the incident last year) has proven me right.

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Do you have a specific case against the San Diego Police department that you would like to share or are you simply extending your paranoia to all Law Enforcement?

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I take exception to your characterizing my distrust for LE as "paranoia." That they are eager to search and seize our persons and property is, IMO, abundantly apparent from what I've been reading on the CG thread about the event. The coordinating officers are trying to line up the serfs for unwarranted search/seizure, FFS.

As for the 'reputation' part - yes, there is at least one case. I am not at liberty to share any details. Let's just say that I think this is among the worst abuses of power I've heard of against an open carry activist. I'm afraid you'll have to take my word on it for now, as we have to play our cards close to our chests. Beyond this, I imagine the person(s) involved would share more details if they wanted it to be made public.

As I stated in my previous post, I base my distrust on two factors. (1) I don't trust ANYBODY until they earn my trust. (2) Wearing a badge isn't an exemption for earning trust. I have experience dealing with LE, probably upward of 250 cops in three counties and twelve cities over a period of five years. The list of incidents is varied and long - I'll just share that I found roughly 90% of them are abusive or negligent in their duties.

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well I think the whole thing about LEO wanting to check our weapons for serial numbers and wants/warrants is absolutely bull@#$% in my opinion. I thought that Penal Code 12031(e) states something to the extend that once a law enforcement officer ask to verify that your weapon is in fact unloaded, that they MUST return the weapon back to you immediately and let you go about your lawful business. Where does it say they HAVE to check the serial numbers unless I am mistaking, that's where this Penal Code supposedly protects you, doesn't it? I know I am wrong on this but would really like this to be clarified by our meeting moderator if this is possible.

Qoute (e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are
authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on
any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer
to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.

Qoute (Field personnel should be made aware of the current state of the law as set forth above and cautioned that this
is not behavior warranting arrest, but that they are legally entitled under §12031(e) to demand inspection of any
such firearms in order to ascertain that the weapon is unloaded. If the firearm is unloaded, it should be returned
and the subject released to go about his/her lawful business. Of course, if the firearm is loaded – as defined above
– then an arrest is appropriate. Any refusal to allow inspection of the firearm constitutes cause for immediate
arrest for a violation of §12031.)

It does NOT state anywhere in PC 12031 that law enforcement may "detain" our weapon for the purpose of checking serial numbers. Sorry if I sound so bold or unprofessional, but as far as I am concerned, if they "detain" my weapon to verify my weapons serial numbers, that constituts as unlawfully "detaining" me.
So, if we go to this meeting and the SWAT Team is waiting for us to verify serial numbers, then guess what could happen, a lot of unhappy folks being unlawfully detained.
If LE can't trust the law abiding citizen...(cough cough) then who is going to trust them? As abusive as they get with their powers, it gets pretty outrageous sometimes. Please don't get me wrong, I am all for LE and would back those guys up, but I have seen some of them really abuse their authority. We'll save that rant for another day. I just hope that this meeting will go smooth without delay or incidents.
On a more serious note, anyone live out in San Diego East County Area, I'd like to go but would seriously consider the idea of carpooling if anyone has no objections. I live in El Cajon and could meet you somewhere. Please let me know.

Thanks....

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giaking70 wrote:

...if they "detain" my weapon to verify my weapons serial numbers, that constituts as unlawfully "detaining" me...

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What you're talking about is the unlawful seizure of your person and property in order to perform warrantless searches. Terry v Ohio holds that this can only be done if the officer has articulable facts (not just a 'hunch') that would lead a reasonable person to believe that you have been or will be involved in criminal activity.

12031(e) declares that the mere presence of a firearm creates reasonable suspicion that the firearm is loaded. It is well settled case law that the mere presence of a firearm does not meet the burden to justify a Terry stop. So, even if Heller isn't incorporated right away (there's an off chance Nordyke will have to go to SCOTUS), I think 'e' checks will be easy enough to stop.

Now, officers probably cannot be held liable for 'e' checks, as that power is granted statutorily. However, no statute or case law (to my knowledge) grants the power to detain for want/warrant, gun registration, or any other searches. This is precisely why the CPOA advised that the firearm be immediately returned and the person immediately released upon verifying no violation of 12031. Kudos to the CPOA attorneys for identifying the line where police power turns into civil/criminal liability.

We should be outraged that our legislature codified a power that the courts have repeatedly denied officers. We should be outraged when those officers willingly use that ill-granted power to violate our rights (and their oaths to the constitution). We should be so much more outraged when they abuse that ill-granted power to further violate our rights.

I'm tired of taking it lying down... sorry for the rant...

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Never apologize for telling it like it is and railing against the anti-freedom nature of our current government.

We cannot wait for case law to be made in high courts, because it DOES NOT MATTER, and here is a hypothetical why:

You are arrested for a crime which should not be a crime (you did not commit the crime, regardless) and the manner by which you were arrested is unconstitutional. You, however, only have $2301.58 in the bank. You are appointed a public defender, you lose your case. You go to jail with a felony conviction and immediately begin the appeals process. Two days/months/years later, the courts finally agree that it was unconstitutional and let you out. I acknowledge this is a fairly weak argument, by the way.

Why does anyone interested in freedom need money to ensure it? Why is it that we're advised to have at least several thousand dollars to legally protect ourselves when we are doing nothing wrong?

Case law is no guarantee of justice. For those days/months/years you spent in jail, there is no reimbursement. Never rely on that which is unreliable.

We need the people on our side, and we need to teach them that guns aren't bad things, they are simply a tool of freedom. Politics is the ONLY way to keep people out of jail; with no laws prohibiting carrying, there is no case against a carrier.

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thanks for correcting me on that CA-Lib....

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Where do i sign up? it would be me UOC, my GF, and 2 other friends that will not OC but want to support this event.

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Mykal wrote:

Where do i sign up? it would be me UOC, my GF, and 2 other friends that will not OC but want to support this event.

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fire off an email (heh-heh) to pullnshoot25@hotmail.com so he can add you to the rolling total. So far we have over 78 people who will attend.

read the post at caopencarry.blogspot.com and make sure you know the law. Everything you need to know is linked from that blog.

See you Saturday.

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whoops! just check the blog and you're already on there.

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How would you guys feel about an LEO coming? I was thinking about attending but don't know for sure if i will be working or not. Also, I'm not sure if I will OC...it's kind of a grey area in our departmental policy.

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MEPDtoUSBP wrote:

How would you guys feel about an LEO coming? I was thinking about attending but don't know for sure if i will be working or not. Also, I'm not sure if I will OC...it's kind of a grey area in our departmental policy.

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As of Feb 22nd Pullnshoot25 said :

Rolling total: 80, with 19 potentials and 61 confirmed. Several will be filming or not OCing and there will be at least two police officers, if not more.


i am pretty sure EVERYONE is welcome to come.



EDIT: I believe some folks are trying to carpool there: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=2010782#post2010782

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Cops are allowed to LOC but if you do not want to be hassled by your the local PD checking your background and possibly garnering unwanted attention from your superiors, just UOC and do not say you are a cop.

There is one member (unnamed) that is doing that same thing.

In any given case, we would love to have you along. I will put you down as a potential.

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I'd love you come, too bad I'm not going out that way for another month....

But if I ever get myself moved back out to Cali I'll be sure to come to the next outing!

Good luck, and have fun!

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MEPDtoUSBP wrote:

How would you guys feel about an LEO coming? I was thinking about attending but don't know for sure if i will be working or not. Also, I'm not sure if I will OC...it's kind of a grey area in our departmental policy.

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The question for your union rep. would be that if concealment is required how do you take it out at a range off duty, go hunting with your long-arms, participate with a color guard in a parade or do any number of other lawful things with your lawfully possessed personal property?

Now, I would agree that USBP certainly has the right to control their issued property in your control but I'm sure USBP personnel have not been disciplined for their ownopen use of their own firearms which would include such activitiescowboy action shooting, three gun matches, target shooting, and otherwise lawful transportation and possession of their own firearms (UOC).

But no needed to jeopardize your position untilthe issue morepolicy clear (such as with 2nd A incorporation and a follow up possession case law on your side). Maybe ask your union rep. to get clarification or an attorney's opinion on control of your off duty lawful possession and useof firearms in accordance with the laws of the state in which you're stationed.

In any event come on out CCor no carry and join in the fellowship! Always good to have more LEOs on our side!

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Bottom line: CC or UOC and just don't give out your name, ID or badge to anyone there as you are not required to provide identification.

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pullnshoot25 wrote:

Bottom line: CC or UOC and just don't give out your name, ID or badge to anyone there as you are not required to provide identification.

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Good point. On another note...When I'm on the way to/from work, still in civvies, I OC...but I always keep mine loaded. It's going to feel different having it unloaded. While I think I wouldn't legally have a problem at the meet withhaving it loaded, I think I would OC unloaded just like you guys...as to not draw any more attention. Any thoughts on this?

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MEPDtoUSBP wrote:

pullnshoot25 wrote:

Bottom line: CC or UOC and just don't give out your name, ID or badge to anyone there as you are not required to provide identification.

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Good point. On another note...When I'm on the way to/from work, still in civvies, I OC...but I always keep mine loaded. It's going to feel different having it unloaded. While I think I wouldn't legally have a problem at the meet withhaving it loaded, I think I would OC unloaded just like you guys...as to not draw any more attention. Any thoughts on this?

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Since the good Captain is intent on making herself a thorn in our side and possibly perform a 12031 check on everyone attending, OCing loaded at this event will require you to present your badge, have it called in to your department for verification, etc.

Come on down and OC the peasant's way, it'll be an enlightening experience.