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Thread: Bellevue Square, Lincoln Square, and other Kemper Development Company properties

  1. #1
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    I was enjoying a day at the mall this past Sunday, the 25th with my wife while openly carrying my sidearm. I was wearing a nice pair of shoes, docker's, and a yellow lacoste polo. My sidearm was in a Serpa retention holster, and I was wearing an Uncle Mike's two mag nylon holster on my weak side. We arrived at the mall at around 2:00pm, and proceeded to shop at various stores including Nordstrom's and Lacoste, and had lunch in the little pizza shop. Employees at both Nordstrom's and Lacoste asked me questions about the sidearm, but were intrigued, not concerned.

    At around 6:00pm we decided to watch a movie, so we left Bellevue Square, and headed across the NE 8th street skybridge to Lincoln Square. I entered first, and held the door open for my wife. Doing so made my condition very obvious to a pair of security guards on the other side of Lincoln Square who were standing in front of the Lucky Strike. We noticed them noticing us, and proceeded up the escalator toward the movie theater.

    At the top as we were loitering to look at the showtimes, the two guards came up the escalators and approached us. They proceeded to instruct me that I could not carry my firearm, and that this was private property. I told them that I was not intending to be confrontational, but that I had an email from their Vice President of Security, a Mr. Clark Rice stating otherwise. The guards left, and as we were obtaining our entrance to the theater I noticed that the younger one (Tim I believe) was in a corner by the elevators talking into something.

    We decided to go downstairs to buy some coffee, as we were waiting for the movie (which hadn't started seating yet). I told my wife that I was afraid that the security guard might think that I had willfully ignored his request, so we decided to go back upstairs, and have a friendly chat to make sure everything was alright.

    We came upon a group of security guards, including those we met earlier, and their supervisor Sgt. John Smith. We introduced ourselves, asked if everything was alright, and proceeded to have a very nice conversation (though the young guard who initially made contact walked away halfway through). They said that they were getting confirmation of the policy, and would prefer that I store my sidearm in my car while they waited. I told them that I was very uncomfortable doing, so, told them what theater number I would be in, and told them that I would be more than happy to do as they asked once they were sure.

    I asked them if they had received any complaints during my stay, and they responded that they had not. They did say that another security guard from Bellevue Square informed them that there was a man with a sidearm. I asked them if that guard appeared to be concerned, and they replied that she was not concerned. We then proceeded to have a conversation about car safes, series 70 and 80 1911's, and Springfield XD's. Near the end of the conversation a group of old neighbors walked up and pulled us away so that they could chat with us as they hadn't seen us in awhile.

    We later watched the movie, and left the mall without being approached again. Sgt. Smith had given me his card so that I could request a policy update, and I did so. I received a response today, and I'm not sure how to take it. The new policy is basically to request that anyone open carrying conceal their firearm, which seems to mean to me that you can carry openly until you're asked not to (in the presence of BPD)?

    I am considering drafting a reply, but am not sure that it is necessary at this point. I am happy that they explicitly allow CC, but not so ecstatic about their interpretation of the pertinent RCW which we all know to be incorrect if State vs. Spencer, etc. are taken into account.

    My most recent reply:

    I would like to thank everyone involved for working to provide such a timely response. I am glad to hear that KDC has no issue with the concealed carry of sidearms. I must say I am disappointed regarding the new method for contacting customer's who are open carrying. I am surprised that Mr. Brooks interpreted from the RCW that such a method of carry warrants alarm, and that he would ask that your team preemptively coordinate a response before any complaint had even been made by your patrons. I understand that several acquaintances of mine at opencarry.org make it (and have made for several years) a regular practice of theirs as well to openly carry on KDC properties. I will inform them of your decision, and appraise them of the appropriate response to make if approached by a Security Officer.

    I do hope that your company will consider revising it's policy after giving the matter careful consideration. I must say I don't understand the need to preemptively respond to a legal activity that has generated no negative response from your customers. I do understand the need for a security response if a complaint(s) has been made, and would love to see a policy stating such, though I realize it is your prerogative to do so. I will of course abide by the current rule, and conceal if requested to do so by one of your officers. Can I assume that this policy affects only the general property of the mall, and has no bearing on retail store policy which may differ (such as Nordstrom's or Red Robin) as long as their entrances are utilized?

    If you have the time or inclination I would like to refer you to a training bulletin issued by the Bellevue Police department regarding the legality of open carry: It is a wonderful help when attempting to interpret these tricky RCW's. Again, thank you for your time and consideration in this matter, and for providing such wonderful facilities for our use!

    Best regards,

    XXXXX
    The exchange thus far is as follows (edited to remove repeated emails):

    xxxxx,

    I appreciated your cooperation on Sunday night. Attached to this email you will find Kemper Development Company’s (KDC) policy on unconcealed carry of weapons on the 3 Bellevue Collection properties sent to me last night by Bill Brooks , Assistant Director of Security for KDC. You will find the following policy guidance at the bottom of the email:

    “Given the nature of our three “private properties”, we feel that carrying weapons in plain view warrants alarm for the safety of other persons – and creates alarm and concern from our general customer base. In the future, coordinate a BPD response when approaching an individual openly carrying a handgun or other firearm, sword, etc., and advise them they will need to remove this firearm/weapon from our property, in the case of a rifle, shotgun or sword, or properly conceal the handgun if they have a “valid concealed pistol license”. (BPD will verify their concealed pistol license in the case of a handgun issue…)

    Since you indicated that you have a valid CPL in the state of Washington , I would advise you that the next time you come to the Bellevue Collection and your intention is to carry your firearm that you keep it concealed on your person or in your vehicle. This way you will be able to avoid any unnecessary attention, or contact by KDC Security or Bellevue Police.

    Thank you again for your time and cooperation regarding this matter.

    Respectfully,

    John Smith
    Swing Shift Security Supervisor
    Kemper Development Company
    (425)454-6290
    (425)646-3760


    From: XX [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:15 PM
    To: john smith
    Cc: Clark Rice
    Subject: Sidearm policy


    Sgt. Smith,

    It was a pleasure talking with you and the other security officers this evening. My wife and I were pleasantly surprised by the friendly and courteous conversation we had with all of you. I've cc'ed Mr. Rice, so that he can see our appreciation.

    If you mention our meeting as part of your request for policy confirmation can you please also mention that your team received no complaints during our 7 hour visit to the property? Also, if you do receive a confirmation of Kemper Development Company's policy regarding legally carried sidearms can you please forward it to me at your earliest convenience? I want to make sure that the next time we visit one of your properties that we are in compliance.

    I have to say that I was excited when I first found that the Bellevue Square collection]
    supported Washington state law. I sincerely hope that it will continue to do so in the future. I've attached the original e-mail from Mr. Rice that was given to me by an acquantaince.

    Best regards,

    xxxxx
    xxxxx@yahoo.com


    >The Bellevue Collection follows RCW 9.41.270 with "in a manner under
    >circumstances... And at a time and place that either manifests an intent
    >to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other
    >persons." to be determined by Bellevue Police Department]
    .
    >
    >Clark C. Rice, CPP
    >Vice President-Security Director
    >Kemper Development Company
    > 575 Bellevue Square
    > Bellevue , WA 98004
    >425-460-5890
    >Fax 425-646-3661




    -----Inline Message Follows-----

    John:

    The RCW that Clark referred to in answering this gentleman’s question regarding firearms is RCW 9.41.270 which reads as follows:

    Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm – Unlawful carrying or handling – Penalty – Exceptions.

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw and firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    (2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

    (b) Any person who by virtue of this or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    (d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

    (e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.

    Given the nature of our three “private properties”, we feel that carrying weapons in plain view warrants alarm for the safety of other persons – and creates alarm and concern from our general customer base. In the future, coordinate a BPD response when approaching an individual openly carrying a handgun or other firearm, sword, etc., and advise them they will need to remove this firearm/weapon from our property, in the case of a rifle, shotgun or sword, or properly conceal the handgun if they have a “valid concealed pistol license”. (BPD will verify their concealed pistol license in the case of a handgun issue…)

    Please let me know if you have additional concerns or would like to discuss further.

    Thanks,

    Bill


    From: john smith
    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:56 PM
    To: Ken West; Bill Brooks; Clark Rice
    Subject: Open Carry/Firearm Policy Question


    Gentlemen,

    This evening at Lincoln Square #27 Tim Neher contacted a customer carrying an unconcealed, holstered pistol in the vicinity of 3rd Floor Atrium outside of the theaters. Tim approached the customer and asked him why he was carrying his firearm in plain view. His response was that he could based upon the RCW and an email on his phone from Clark Rice. Tim stated that he did not read the email, but according to the customer the paraphrased quote was that Bellevue Collection Rules of Conduct and security staff followed and supported the RCW and BCC. After Tim left the customer, he contacted Phil Hoyt.

    As for my recollection of the RCW regarding unconcealed carrying of a firearm, as long as the person carrying the weapon is not making any threatening gestures (brandishing), the weapon can be carried in the hand or in a holster. I do know that it is unlawful to carry a firearm into a bank, school, or liquor store, bar, lounge or tavern. I am not aware of any BCC which places any other restrictions on carrying firearms.

    According to the copies of the Bellevue Collection Rules of Conduct, the only rule that may apply to weapons or dangerous material is rule 11. Yet, it never makes any direct reference to firearms but only to “martial arts equipment or other paraphernalia, which may be dangerous or harmful to persons or property”. I am not willing to violate any person’s civil liberties or constitutional rights, whether it is their right to free speech, bearing arms, or free from illegal search and seizure. Yet, I would like to have a clearly defined and tangible explanation whether firearms are allowed on property by patrons or not in order to keep the officer educated when another situation like this occurs.

    Thank you for your time regarding this matter. Your assistance with this issue is greatly appreciated.

    Respectfully,

    John Smith
    Swing Shift Sergeant
    Kemper Development Company
    (425)454-6290
    (425)646-3760
    johns@kemperdc.com



    ETA: I forgot to add that while we were speaking with them in front of the theater, they asked if I was a police officer. I said no, and asked if it mattered. They said yes. I find it interesting that I've only been confronted twice in the past several months including this time, and on both occasions being an LEO would have given me an OC pass. I do want to say that Sgt. Smith and another officer whose name I believe was Phil were both very polite, and friendly and I appreciated Sgt. Smith's approach both while we spoke, and after.

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    diesel556 wrote:
    [SNIP]
    From: john smith
    Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:56 PM
    To: Ken West; Bill Brooks; Clark Rice
    Subject: Open Carry/Firearm Policy Question


    Gentlemen,

    [SNIP]
    As for my recollection of the RCW regarding unconcealed carrying of a firearm, as long as the person carrying the weapon is not making any threatening gestures (brandishing), the weapon can be carried in the hand or in a holster. I do know that it is unlawful to carry a firearm into a bank, school, or liquor store, bar, lounge or tavern. I am not aware of any BCC which places any other restrictions on carrying firearms.

    [SNIP]
    Respectfully,

    John Smith
    Swing Shift Sergeant
    Kemper Development Company
    (425)454-6290
    (425)646-3760
    johns@kemperdc.com

    [SNIP]
    The guy is an idiot. You can OC in banks and liquor stores all day long as I'm positive you know. As for the statement from the exact same guy in the earlier that is already in bold-face, that's patently false as well. The mere presence of a firearm in plain view in a holster does not warrant alarm for the safety of others. (In your hand, or with your hand caressing the holster might...)

    I think I'd continue to politely and persistently pursue this a bit further, if you feel comfortable doing so.

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    I agree that he made a mistake when he stated that carry is illegal in banks, etc. However, I think it was probably an honest mistake on his part. I say this because of this statement (which took some salt to make):

    "I am not willing to violate any person’s civil liberties or constitutional rights, whether it is their right to free speech, bearing arms, or free from illegal search and seizure. Yet, I would like to have a clearly defined and tangible explanation whether firearms are allowed on property by patrons or not in order to keep the officer educated when another situation like this occurs."

    I may be wrong, but it seems like Sgt. Smith's attitude isn't an issue. My issue is with his superior's interpretation of state law. As you said, carrying in a holster is not legal cause to warrant alarm. Maybe you are right, and all they need is to be informed of the legality of open carry? My feeling is that they will engage BPD a few times and discover that it is legal, alternatively BPD might stop responding in a timely manner after enough calls have been made.

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    shad0wfax wrote
    The guy is an idiot. You can OC in banks and liquor stores all day long as I'm positive you know. As for the statement from the exact same guy in the earlier that is already in bold-face, that's patently false as well. The mere presence of a firearm in plain view in a holster does not warrant alarm for the safety of others. (In your hand, or with your hand caressing the holster might...)

    I think I'd continue to politely and persistently pursue this a bit further, if you feel comfortable doing so.
    Actually liqueur stores should be a no no as they are marked 21 and older only. Though I have seen one sign on one store that said children ok with parent.

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    diesel556 wrote:
    I agree that he made a mistake when he stated that carry is illegal in banks, etc. However, I think it was probably an honest mistake on his part. I say this because of this statement (which took some salt to make):

    "I am not willing to violate any person’s civil liberties or constitutional rights, whether it is their right to free speech, bearing arms, or free from illegal search and seizure. Yet, I would like to have a clearly defined and tangible explanation whether firearms are allowed on property by patrons or not in order to keep the officer educated when another situation like this occurs."

    I may be wrong, but it seems like Sgt. Smith's attitude isn't an issue. My issue is with his superior's interpretation of state law. As you said, carrying in a holster is not legal cause to warrant alarm. Maybe you are right, and all they need is to be informed of the legality of open carry? My feeling is that they will engage BPD a few times and discover that it is legal, alternatively BPD might stop responding in a timely manner after enough calls have been made.
    Yes, I apologize if my tone was a bit too negative. I don't find anything wrong with Smith's attitude. It seems that as a whole, everyone you dealt with was professional and courteous and so were you. As you said, I find fault with his ignorant statements. (You can carry in a state liquor store as well as a bank.)

    I think thesupervisor isaware of the legality of open carry. I thinkhe wantsyou to conceal because he simply doesn't want to deal with customer complaints about OC. With that in mind, I think the supervisor is subconsciously (or deliberately)misinterpreting RCW 9.41.270 about "warranting alarm for the safety of others" and using that to reinforce his position which is to avoid the issue entirely.

    The key to 9.41.270 is that it takes fulfilling all5 parts of the "no-no" list to actually be in violation of the law. You have to be 1) carrying, exhibiting, drawing, or displaying the weapon 2)in a manner that 3) under circumstances that 4)at a time and a place that-and- -either- A) manifests an intent to intimidate another -or- B) warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    I think he's misinterpreting the law and reading it as an or, or, or, orstatement, when in reality you must do 1, 2, 3, 4,-and- A or B to be breaking the law. (an and, and, and, and statement, if you will)

    He's too focused on "warrants alarm for the safety of other persons" and not looking at the law in its entirety. Even if it does warrant alarm for the safety of other persons (and it doesn't) it isnot in a manner or under circumstances if it's in a holster and not being handled.

    The sheeplecan feel unsafe about seeing the gun all they want just like they can feel unsafe when they see a 400 lb biker wearing leather chaps. Until you (or the biker) does something to intimidate folks or make some action that truly warrants alarm in a reasonable person, there's nothing they can do about it. People who see a gun and are immediately alarmed and feel unsafe are unreasonable. If you put your hand on the grip and walk around that way, that's an entirely different story, because that could warrant alarm.

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    sirpuma wrote:
    shad0wfax wrote
    The guy is an idiot. You can OC in banks and liquor stores all day long as I'm positive you know. As for the statement from the exact same guy in the earlier that is already in bold-face, that's patently false as well. The mere presence of a firearm in plain view in a holster does not warrant alarm for the safety of others. (In your hand, or with your hand caressing the holster might...)

    I think I'd continue to politely and persistently pursue this a bit further, if you feel comfortable doing so.
    Actually liqueur stores should be a no no as they are marked 21 and older only. Though I have seen one sign on one store that said children ok with parent.
    Liquor stores have been confirmed previously to be OK while OCing. Since children can come in with a parent, the rule about a premises that is 21 and over doesn't apply.

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    Per my email interactions with Mr. Earl Hill, Legal carry of a weapon in a liquor store is authorized.

    Hello Mr. Starks,

    My name is Earl Hill and I’m a District Manager for the Liquor Control Board covering the Tacoma area.

    I’m responding to your concern regarding a recent shopping experience at our retail store # 122 at 72nd and Pacific Avenue in Tacoma. I have reviewed the incident as described and it appears that while you were shopping, a customer initially noticed your firearm and commented that you were not allowed to have one in the store. Our store employees overheard this and supported that you were not allowed to carry while the store. Upon reviewing the signs posted in the store; I have determined that the signs were meant to be advisory for our staff and not for our retail customers. Our store employees were misinformed about the intent of the sign and I have authorized their removal.


    Let me apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. We value customer feedback and I appreciate you letting me know about this incident. Let me know if you wish to discuss further by calling or emailing me at your convenience.

    Thank you

    Earl Hill, District Manager Office: 253/471-5338 Cell: 253/370-2250

    Roberson Bldg Ste 208 Fax: 360/704-5021 EH@LIQ.WA.GOV

    6240 Tacoma Mall Blvd

    Tacoma WA 98409-6819

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    Glad to see that other people OC in the downtown Bellevue area. I tend to CC in the theater (due to other theaters having "no firearms" policies... even though when concealed they have no idea :quirky - how dare I maintain the safety of myself and my girlfriend. The gall!). I'd follow up with a polite email informing them of both the Bellevue PD's memo on OC as well as the various court opinions (published or non...state v casad, spencer, etc). They seem open to supporting your rights, and I applaud that and would like to show respect by maintaining civil discourse .

    Good job talking with them, and maybe we'll run into each other sometime. Or you could just do walks around downtown park... I've been there OCing there while jogging at least 3-4 times a week at night. Impromptu meetup?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Tawnos wrote:
    Glad to see that other people OC in the downtown Bellevue area. I tend to CC in the theater (due to other theaters having "no firearms" policies... even though when concealed they have no idea :quirky - how dare I maintain the safety of myself and my girlfriend. The gall!). I'd follow up with a polite email informing them of both the Bellevue PD's memo on OC as well as the various court opinions (published or non...state v casad, spencer, etc). They seem open to supporting your rights, and I applaud that and would like to show respect by maintaining civil discourse .

    Good job talking with them, and maybe we'll run into each other sometime. Or you could just do walks around downtown park... I've been there OCing there while jogging at least 3-4 times a week at night. Impromptu meetup?
    I checked to see who owned the theater before OC'ing there. It's not one of the big ones that explicitly prohibit firearms, and I haven't had any issues OC'ing while watching movies on 3 separate occasions.

    I had considered sending them a reference to State vs. Spencer; the BPD memo is a great idea. I agree that it's nice that they aren't outright prohibiting firearms.

    It's possible we'll run into each other, though I've been making special trips to do my shopping at Bellevue Square specifically because of their firearms policy. I actually live much closer to Southcenter, but I hope you never catch me inside that mall *shudder*. Chances that you'll see me in a Bellevue park are fairly slim because of that.

    Having a meetup at the one of the restaurants in Bellevue Square might actually be a good idea. It would be even more interesting if we could schedule the monthly dinner there after finding a restauraunt open to the idea. I wonder how they would feel about 20 or 30 OC'ing LAC's eating burgers at Red Robin.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    I wonder how they would feel about 20 or 30 OC'ing LAC's eating burgers at Red Robin.
    Someone say Bonzi Burgers? I'm there....

    Edit:
    Forgot to add I sent Mr. Smith a email informing him of the laws on carry in Liquor stores and banks (with documentation). I also attached the Bellevue PD Training Bulletin. He didn't seemed to be impressed by being corrected but maybe that was just my impression in the email reply.


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    M1Gunr wrote:
    Someone say Bonzi Burgers? I'm there....

    Edit:
    Forgot to add I sent Mr. Smith a email informing him of the laws on carry in Liquor stores and banks (with documentation). I also attached the Bellevue PD Training Bulletin. He didn't seemed to be impressed by being corrected but maybe that was just my impression in the email reply.
    I guess the February dinner might just be at the Bellevue Square Red Robin :celebrate. I think I've read previously that they are fine with OC?

    I drafted a reply to the Sgt., as well as everyone else involved at Kemper Development Company, and have posted it above.

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    diesel556 wrote:
    I guess the February dinner might just be at the Bellevue Square Red Robin :celebrate. I think I've read previously that they are fine with OC?
    I'm up for that. Someone start a new thread for a february Bellevue dinner...

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    I'm sorry to hear about your incident. I have never OC'd in the theater before, mostly Bellevue Square. For some reason, once you cross the sky bridge from Bellevue Square to Lincoln Square, the security guards change attitudes. I don't see how they can ban OC until someone actually complains about it. You asked Smith if there were any complaints and he said no. You should be able to just carry on until someone complains. Anyhow I thought my email would have been useful. Here's the whole email:

    Jerome,

    The Bellevue Collection follows RCW 9.41.270 with "in a manner under
    circumstances... And at a time and place that either manifests an intent
    to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other
    persons." to be determined by Bellevue Police Department.

    Clark C. Rice, CPP
    Vice President-Security Director
    Kemper Development Company
    575 Bellevue Square
    Bellevue, WA 98004
    425-460-5890
    Fax 425-646-3661


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Adrianne Robins
    Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 8:20 AM
    To: Clark Rice; Bill Brooks
    Subject: FW: Firearms Policy



    Adrianne Robins
    Website and Communication Manager
    Kemper Development Company
    The Bellevue Collection | Bellevue Square | Bellevue Place | Lincoln
    Square P (425) 460-5828 | F (425) 460-5829 |
    adrianne.robins@kemperdc.com http://www.bellevuecollection.com -----Original
    Message-----
    From: Jerome
    Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 3:19 PM
    To: Information
    Subject: Firearms Policy

    Hello. I was wondering what the policy was for legally owned and legally
    carried firearms (whether concealed or openly) by customers while
    shopping in The Bellevue Collection. Does The Bellevue Collection comply
    with state law in regard to the carrying of firearms? Thank you in
    advance.

    -Jerome

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    jchen012 wrote:
    I'm sorry to hear about your incident. I have never OC'd in the theater before, mostly Bellevue Square. For some reason, once you cross the sky bridge from Bellevue Square to Lincoln Square, the security guards change attitudes.
    That's an interesting observation. Now that I consider it, what you say makes sense. The Sgt. said that a security officer from Bellevue square saw me, but what did she do? She informed another guard or a superior, and moved on.

    However, within 2 minutes of entering Lincoln square what did the guard there do? Confront me and inform me that this was private property, and my behavior was not allowed.

    I think the first response was much more appropriate.

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    I've OCed into their theater quite a few times and have never been bothered by anyone. Apparently, the actions of the hoplophobes are selectively applied.

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    44Brent wrote:
    I've OCed into their theater quite a few times and have never been bothered by anyone. Apparently, the actions of the hoplophobes are selectively applied.
    Have you (or anyone else) OC'ed there since my "confrontation"?

    I was there the other night OC'ing (we watched "Taken", good movie btw :P), I don't think the security guards noticed.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    sirpuma wrote:
    shad0wfax wrote
    The guy is an idiot. You can OC in banks and liquor stores all day long as I'm positive you know. As for the statement from the exact same guy in the earlier that is already in bold-face, that's patently false as well. The mere presence of a firearm in plain view in a holster does not warrant alarm for the safety of others. (In your hand, or with your hand caressing the holster might...)

    I think I'd continue to politely and persistently pursue this a bit further, if you feel comfortable doing so.
    Actually liqueur stores should be a no no as they are marked 21 and older only. Though I have seen one sign on one store that said children ok with parent.
    Liquor stores have been confirmed previously to be OK while OCing. Since children can come in with a parent, the rule about a premises that is 21 and over doesn't apply.
    The rule on the over 21 issue is not applicable, since alcohol is not consumed on the premises, only purchased for consumption elsewhere.

    When the **** hits the fan, ask yourself: What Would Bugly Do?

  18. #18
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    As a side note, I've OC'd at Bellevue Square Mall twice and been there for at least an hour each time without issue. This was about 1-2 years ago, though.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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  19. #19
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    just_a_car wrote:
    As a side note, I've OC'd at Bellevue Square Mall twice and been there for at least an hour each time without issue. This was about 1-2 years ago, though.
    I just got back and was confronted for OC'ing. I posted my story on the board.

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