diesel556
Lone Star Veteran
imported post
I was enjoying a day at the mall this past Sunday, the 25th with my wife while openly carrying my sidearm. I was wearing a nice pair of shoes, docker's, and a yellow lacoste polo. My sidearm was in a Serpa retention holster, and I was wearing an Uncle Mike's two mag nylon holster on my weak side. We arrived at the mall at around 2:00pm, and proceeded to shop at various stores including Nordstrom's and Lacoste, and had lunch in the little pizza shop. Employees at both Nordstrom's and Lacoste asked me questions about the sidearm, but were intrigued, not concerned.
At around 6:00pm we decided to watch a movie, so we left Bellevue Square, and headed across the NE 8th street skybridge to Lincoln Square. I entered first, and held the door open for my wife. Doing so made my condition very obvious to a pair of security guards on the other side of Lincoln Square who were standing in front of the Lucky Strike. We noticed them noticing us, and proceeded up the escalator toward the movie theater.
At the top as we were loitering to look at the showtimes, the two guards came up the escalators and approached us. They proceeded to instruct me that I could not carry my firearm, and that this was private property. I told them that I was not intending to be confrontational, but that I had an email from their Vice President of Security, a Mr. Clark Rice stating otherwise. The guards left, and as we were obtaining our entrance to the theater I noticed that the younger one (Tim I believe) was in a corner by the elevators talking into something.
We decided to go downstairs to buy some coffee, as we were waiting for the movie (which hadn't started seating yet). I told my wife that I was afraid that the security guard might think that I had willfully ignored his request, so we decided to go back upstairs, and have a friendly chat to make sure everything was alright.
We came upon a group of security guards, including those we met earlier, and their supervisor Sgt. John Smith. We introduced ourselves, asked if everything was alright, and proceeded to have a very nice conversation (though the young guard who initially made contact walked away halfway through). They said that they were getting confirmation of the policy, and would prefer that I store my sidearm in my car while they waited. I told them that I was very uncomfortable doing, so, told them what theater number I would be in, and told them that I would be more than happy to do as they asked once they were sure.
I asked them if they had received any complaints during my stay, and they responded that they had not. They did say that another security guard from Bellevue Square informed them that there was a man with a sidearm. I asked them if that guard appeared to be concerned, and they replied that she was not concerned. We then proceeded to have a conversation about car safes, series 70 and 80 1911's, and Springfield XD's. Near the end of the conversation a group of old neighbors walked up and pulled us away so that they could chat with us as they hadn't seen us in awhile.
We later watched the movie, and left the mall without being approached again. Sgt. Smith had given me his card so that I could request a policy update, and I did so. I received a response today, and I'm not sure how to take it. The new policy is basically to request that anyone open carrying conceal their firearm, which seems to mean to me that you can carry openly until you're asked not to (in the presence of BPD)?
I am considering drafting a reply, but am not sure that it is necessary at this point. I am happy that they explicitly allow CC, but not so ecstatic about their interpretation of the pertinent RCW which we all know to be incorrect if State vs. Spencer, etc. are taken into account.
My most recent reply:
I would like to thank everyone involved for working to provide such a timely response. I am glad to hear that KDC has no issue with the concealed carry of sidearms. I must say I am disappointed regarding the new method for contacting customer's who are open carrying. I am surprised that Mr. Brooks interpreted from the RCW that such a method of carry warrants alarm, and that he would ask that your team preemptively coordinate a response before any complaint had even been made by your patrons. I understand that several acquaintances of mine at opencarry.org make it (and have made for several years) a regular practice of theirs as well to openly carry on KDC properties. I will inform them of your decision, and appraise them of the appropriate response to make if approached by a Security Officer.
I do hope that your company will consider revising it's policy after giving the matter careful consideration. I must say I don't understand the need to preemptively respond to a legal activity that has generated no negative response from your customers. I do understand the need for a security response if a complaint(s) has been made, and would love to see a policy stating such, though I realize it is your prerogative to do so. I will of course abide by the current rule, and conceal if requested to do so by one of your officers. Can I assume that this policy affects only the general property of the mall, and has no bearing on retail store policy which may differ (such as Nordstrom's or Red Robin) as long as their entrances are utilized?
If you have the time or inclination I would like to refer you to a training bulletin issued by the Bellevue Police department regarding the legality of open carry: It is a wonderful help when attempting to interpret these tricky RCW's. Again, thank you for your time and consideration in this matter, and for providing such wonderful facilities for our use!
Best regards,
XXXXX
The exchange thus far is as follows (edited to remove repeated emails):
xxxxx,
I appreciated your cooperation on Sunday night. Attached to this email you will find Kemper Development Company’s (KDC) policy on unconcealed carry of weapons on the 3 Bellevue Collection properties sent to me last night by Bill Brooks , Assistant Director of Security for KDC. You will find the following policy guidance at the bottom of the email:
“Given the nature of our three “private properties”, we feel that carrying weapons in plain view warrants alarm for the safety of other persons – and creates alarm and concern from our general customer base. In the future, coordinate a BPD response when approaching an individual openly carrying a handgun or other firearm, sword, etc., and advise them they will need to remove this firearm/weapon from our property, in the case of a rifle, shotgun or sword, or properly conceal the handgun if they have a “valid concealed pistol license”. (BPD will verify their concealed pistol license in the case of a handgun issue…)”
Since you indicated that you have a valid CPL in the state of Washington , I would advise you that the next time you come to the Bellevue Collection and your intention is to carry your firearm that you keep it concealed on your person or in your vehicle. This way you will be able to avoid any unnecessary attention, or contact by KDC Security or Bellevue Police.
Thank you again for your time and cooperation regarding this matter.
Respectfully,
John Smith
Swing Shift Security Supervisor
Kemper Development Company
(425)454-6290
(425)646-3760
From: XX [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:15 PM
To: john smith
Cc: Clark Rice
Subject: Sidearm policy
Sgt. Smith,
It was a pleasure talking with you and the other security officers this evening. My wife and I were pleasantly surprised by the friendly and courteous conversation we had with all of you. I've cc'ed Mr. Rice, so that he can see our appreciation.
If you mention our meeting as part of your request for policy confirmation can you please also mention that your team received no complaints during our 7 hour visit to the property? Also, if you do receive a confirmation of Kemper Development Company's policy regarding legally carried sidearms can you please forward it to me at your earliest convenience? I want to make sure that the next time we visit one of your properties that we are in compliance.
I have to say that I was excited when I first found that the Bellevue Square collection] supported Washington state law. I sincerely hope that it will continue to do so in the future. I've attached the original e-mail from Mr. Rice that was given to me by an acquantaince.
Best regards,
xxxxx
xxxxx@yahoo.com
>The Bellevue Collection follows RCW 9.41.270 with "in a manner under
>circumstances... And at a time and place that either manifests an intent
>to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other
>persons." to be determined by Bellevue Police Department].
>
>Clark C. Rice, CPP
>Vice President-Security Director
>Kemper Development Company
> 575 Bellevue Square
> Bellevue , WA 98004
>425-460-5890
>Fax 425-646-3661
-----Inline Message Follows-----
John:
The RCW that Clark referred to in answering this gentleman’s question regarding firearms is RCW 9.41.270 which reads as follows:
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm – Unlawful carrying or handling – Penalty – Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw and firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.
(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;
(b) Any person who by virtue of this or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;
(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or
(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.
Given the nature of our three “private properties”, we feel that carrying weapons in plain view warrants alarm for the safety of other persons – and creates alarm and concern from our general customer base. In the future, coordinate a BPD response when approaching an individual openly carrying a handgun or other firearm, sword, etc., and advise them they will need to remove this firearm/weapon from our property, in the case of a rifle, shotgun or sword, or properly conceal the handgun if they have a “valid concealed pistol license”. (BPD will verify their concealed pistol license in the case of a handgun issue…)
Please let me know if you have additional concerns or would like to discuss further.
Thanks,
Bill
From: john smith
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:56 PM
To: Ken West; Bill Brooks; Clark Rice
Subject: Open Carry/Firearm Policy Question
Gentlemen,
This evening at Lincoln Square #27 Tim Neher contacted a customer carrying an unconcealed, holstered pistol in the vicinity of 3[sup]rd[/sup] Floor Atrium outside of the theaters. Tim approached the customer and asked him why he was carrying his firearm in plain view. His response was that he could based upon the RCW and an email on his phone from Clark Rice. Tim stated that he did not read the email, but according to the customer the paraphrased quote was that Bellevue Collection Rules of Conduct and security staff followed and supported the RCW and BCC. After Tim left the customer, he contacted Phil Hoyt.
As for my recollection of the RCW regarding unconcealed carrying of a firearm, as long as the person carrying the weapon is not making any threatening gestures (brandishing), the weapon can be carried in the hand or in a holster. I do know that it is unlawful to carry a firearm into a bank, school, or liquor store, bar, lounge or tavern. I am not aware of any BCC which places any other restrictions on carrying firearms.
According to the copies of the Bellevue Collection Rules of Conduct, the only rule that may apply to weapons or dangerous material is rule 11. Yet, it never makes any direct reference to firearms but only to “martial arts equipment or other paraphernalia, which may be dangerous or harmful to persons or property”. I am not willing to violate any person’s civil liberties or constitutional rights, whether it is their right to free speech, bearing arms, or free from illegal search and seizure. Yet, I would like to have a clearly defined and tangible explanation whether firearms are allowed on property by patrons or not in order to keep the officer educated when another situation like this occurs.
Thank you for your time regarding this matter. Your assistance with this issue is greatly appreciated.
Respectfully,
John Smith
Swing Shift Sergeant
Kemper Development Company
(425)454-6290
(425)646-3760
johns@kemperdc.com
ETA: I forgot to add that while we were speaking with them in front of the theater, they asked if I was a police officer. I said no, and asked if it mattered. They said yes. I find it interesting that I've only been confronted twice in the past several months including this time, and on both occasions being an LEO would have given me an OC pass. I do want to say that Sgt. Smith and another officer whose name I believe was Phil were both very polite, and friendly and I appreciated Sgt. Smith's approach both while we spoke, and after.
I was enjoying a day at the mall this past Sunday, the 25th with my wife while openly carrying my sidearm. I was wearing a nice pair of shoes, docker's, and a yellow lacoste polo. My sidearm was in a Serpa retention holster, and I was wearing an Uncle Mike's two mag nylon holster on my weak side. We arrived at the mall at around 2:00pm, and proceeded to shop at various stores including Nordstrom's and Lacoste, and had lunch in the little pizza shop. Employees at both Nordstrom's and Lacoste asked me questions about the sidearm, but were intrigued, not concerned.
At around 6:00pm we decided to watch a movie, so we left Bellevue Square, and headed across the NE 8th street skybridge to Lincoln Square. I entered first, and held the door open for my wife. Doing so made my condition very obvious to a pair of security guards on the other side of Lincoln Square who were standing in front of the Lucky Strike. We noticed them noticing us, and proceeded up the escalator toward the movie theater.
At the top as we were loitering to look at the showtimes, the two guards came up the escalators and approached us. They proceeded to instruct me that I could not carry my firearm, and that this was private property. I told them that I was not intending to be confrontational, but that I had an email from their Vice President of Security, a Mr. Clark Rice stating otherwise. The guards left, and as we were obtaining our entrance to the theater I noticed that the younger one (Tim I believe) was in a corner by the elevators talking into something.
We decided to go downstairs to buy some coffee, as we were waiting for the movie (which hadn't started seating yet). I told my wife that I was afraid that the security guard might think that I had willfully ignored his request, so we decided to go back upstairs, and have a friendly chat to make sure everything was alright.
We came upon a group of security guards, including those we met earlier, and their supervisor Sgt. John Smith. We introduced ourselves, asked if everything was alright, and proceeded to have a very nice conversation (though the young guard who initially made contact walked away halfway through). They said that they were getting confirmation of the policy, and would prefer that I store my sidearm in my car while they waited. I told them that I was very uncomfortable doing, so, told them what theater number I would be in, and told them that I would be more than happy to do as they asked once they were sure.
I asked them if they had received any complaints during my stay, and they responded that they had not. They did say that another security guard from Bellevue Square informed them that there was a man with a sidearm. I asked them if that guard appeared to be concerned, and they replied that she was not concerned. We then proceeded to have a conversation about car safes, series 70 and 80 1911's, and Springfield XD's. Near the end of the conversation a group of old neighbors walked up and pulled us away so that they could chat with us as they hadn't seen us in awhile.
We later watched the movie, and left the mall without being approached again. Sgt. Smith had given me his card so that I could request a policy update, and I did so. I received a response today, and I'm not sure how to take it. The new policy is basically to request that anyone open carrying conceal their firearm, which seems to mean to me that you can carry openly until you're asked not to (in the presence of BPD)?
I am considering drafting a reply, but am not sure that it is necessary at this point. I am happy that they explicitly allow CC, but not so ecstatic about their interpretation of the pertinent RCW which we all know to be incorrect if State vs. Spencer, etc. are taken into account.
My most recent reply:
I would like to thank everyone involved for working to provide such a timely response. I am glad to hear that KDC has no issue with the concealed carry of sidearms. I must say I am disappointed regarding the new method for contacting customer's who are open carrying. I am surprised that Mr. Brooks interpreted from the RCW that such a method of carry warrants alarm, and that he would ask that your team preemptively coordinate a response before any complaint had even been made by your patrons. I understand that several acquaintances of mine at opencarry.org make it (and have made for several years) a regular practice of theirs as well to openly carry on KDC properties. I will inform them of your decision, and appraise them of the appropriate response to make if approached by a Security Officer.
I do hope that your company will consider revising it's policy after giving the matter careful consideration. I must say I don't understand the need to preemptively respond to a legal activity that has generated no negative response from your customers. I do understand the need for a security response if a complaint(s) has been made, and would love to see a policy stating such, though I realize it is your prerogative to do so. I will of course abide by the current rule, and conceal if requested to do so by one of your officers. Can I assume that this policy affects only the general property of the mall, and has no bearing on retail store policy which may differ (such as Nordstrom's or Red Robin) as long as their entrances are utilized?
If you have the time or inclination I would like to refer you to a training bulletin issued by the Bellevue Police department regarding the legality of open carry: It is a wonderful help when attempting to interpret these tricky RCW's. Again, thank you for your time and consideration in this matter, and for providing such wonderful facilities for our use!
Best regards,
XXXXX
The exchange thus far is as follows (edited to remove repeated emails):
xxxxx,
I appreciated your cooperation on Sunday night. Attached to this email you will find Kemper Development Company’s (KDC) policy on unconcealed carry of weapons on the 3 Bellevue Collection properties sent to me last night by Bill Brooks , Assistant Director of Security for KDC. You will find the following policy guidance at the bottom of the email:
“Given the nature of our three “private properties”, we feel that carrying weapons in plain view warrants alarm for the safety of other persons – and creates alarm and concern from our general customer base. In the future, coordinate a BPD response when approaching an individual openly carrying a handgun or other firearm, sword, etc., and advise them they will need to remove this firearm/weapon from our property, in the case of a rifle, shotgun or sword, or properly conceal the handgun if they have a “valid concealed pistol license”. (BPD will verify their concealed pistol license in the case of a handgun issue…)”
Since you indicated that you have a valid CPL in the state of Washington , I would advise you that the next time you come to the Bellevue Collection and your intention is to carry your firearm that you keep it concealed on your person or in your vehicle. This way you will be able to avoid any unnecessary attention, or contact by KDC Security or Bellevue Police.
Thank you again for your time and cooperation regarding this matter.
Respectfully,
John Smith
Swing Shift Security Supervisor
Kemper Development Company
(425)454-6290
(425)646-3760
From: XX [mailto:xxxxx@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 11:15 PM
To: john smith
Cc: Clark Rice
Subject: Sidearm policy
Sgt. Smith,
It was a pleasure talking with you and the other security officers this evening. My wife and I were pleasantly surprised by the friendly and courteous conversation we had with all of you. I've cc'ed Mr. Rice, so that he can see our appreciation.
If you mention our meeting as part of your request for policy confirmation can you please also mention that your team received no complaints during our 7 hour visit to the property? Also, if you do receive a confirmation of Kemper Development Company's policy regarding legally carried sidearms can you please forward it to me at your earliest convenience? I want to make sure that the next time we visit one of your properties that we are in compliance.
I have to say that I was excited when I first found that the Bellevue Square collection] supported Washington state law. I sincerely hope that it will continue to do so in the future. I've attached the original e-mail from Mr. Rice that was given to me by an acquantaince.
Best regards,
xxxxx
xxxxx@yahoo.com
>The Bellevue Collection follows RCW 9.41.270 with "in a manner under
>circumstances... And at a time and place that either manifests an intent
>to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other
>persons." to be determined by Bellevue Police Department].
>
>Clark C. Rice, CPP
>Vice President-Security Director
>Kemper Development Company
> 575 Bellevue Square
> Bellevue , WA 98004
>425-460-5890
>Fax 425-646-3661
-----Inline Message Follows-----
John:
The RCW that Clark referred to in answering this gentleman’s question regarding firearms is RCW 9.41.270 which reads as follows:
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm – Unlawful carrying or handling – Penalty – Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw and firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.
(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;
(b) Any person who by virtue of this or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;
(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;
(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or
(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.
Given the nature of our three “private properties”, we feel that carrying weapons in plain view warrants alarm for the safety of other persons – and creates alarm and concern from our general customer base. In the future, coordinate a BPD response when approaching an individual openly carrying a handgun or other firearm, sword, etc., and advise them they will need to remove this firearm/weapon from our property, in the case of a rifle, shotgun or sword, or properly conceal the handgun if they have a “valid concealed pistol license”. (BPD will verify their concealed pistol license in the case of a handgun issue…)
Please let me know if you have additional concerns or would like to discuss further.
Thanks,
Bill
From: john smith
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:56 PM
To: Ken West; Bill Brooks; Clark Rice
Subject: Open Carry/Firearm Policy Question
Gentlemen,
This evening at Lincoln Square #27 Tim Neher contacted a customer carrying an unconcealed, holstered pistol in the vicinity of 3[sup]rd[/sup] Floor Atrium outside of the theaters. Tim approached the customer and asked him why he was carrying his firearm in plain view. His response was that he could based upon the RCW and an email on his phone from Clark Rice. Tim stated that he did not read the email, but according to the customer the paraphrased quote was that Bellevue Collection Rules of Conduct and security staff followed and supported the RCW and BCC. After Tim left the customer, he contacted Phil Hoyt.
As for my recollection of the RCW regarding unconcealed carrying of a firearm, as long as the person carrying the weapon is not making any threatening gestures (brandishing), the weapon can be carried in the hand or in a holster. I do know that it is unlawful to carry a firearm into a bank, school, or liquor store, bar, lounge or tavern. I am not aware of any BCC which places any other restrictions on carrying firearms.
According to the copies of the Bellevue Collection Rules of Conduct, the only rule that may apply to weapons or dangerous material is rule 11. Yet, it never makes any direct reference to firearms but only to “martial arts equipment or other paraphernalia, which may be dangerous or harmful to persons or property”. I am not willing to violate any person’s civil liberties or constitutional rights, whether it is their right to free speech, bearing arms, or free from illegal search and seizure. Yet, I would like to have a clearly defined and tangible explanation whether firearms are allowed on property by patrons or not in order to keep the officer educated when another situation like this occurs.
Thank you for your time regarding this matter. Your assistance with this issue is greatly appreciated.
Respectfully,
John Smith
Swing Shift Sergeant
Kemper Development Company
(425)454-6290
(425)646-3760
johns@kemperdc.com
ETA: I forgot to add that while we were speaking with them in front of the theater, they asked if I was a police officer. I said no, and asked if it mattered. They said yes. I find it interesting that I've only been confronted twice in the past several months including this time, and on both occasions being an LEO would have given me an OC pass. I do want to say that Sgt. Smith and another officer whose name I believe was Phil were both very polite, and friendly and I appreciated Sgt. Smith's approach both while we spoke, and after.