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2A as civil right

cynicist

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I was just looking over a website about restoring firearm rights, and as it turns out, the 9th Federal District (and probably others) recently switched it's position on whether the right to bear arms is a civil right.
Until recently, DV convicts who had their rights to bear restored by a WA court could keep and bear under federal law as well, because of the federal statute that explains that convictions that have later had civil rights restored as not counted as convictions for firearm eligibility purposes. However, they ruled that the right to bear arms is not a civil right, so even if you get a court order restoring your firearm rights, it may not count because it is not a "civil right" in the 9th District.

We need a law stating the the right to bear arms is legally a civil right, or it to be taken to the US Supreme Court and declared such, whichever comes firtst.
 

SouthernBoy

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Well what do you expect from the 9th Circuit Court?

They're wrong.. simple as that. The Bill of Rights specifically outlines those most basic and fundamental "civil" rights necessary to the continuance of a free people. These rights are so important and so significant that they are cast in stone and unamendable.. at least according to several of our Founders. So once again, the court is in error.
 

darthmord

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What I don't understand is the following...

2nd Amendment states The people have the right to keep and bear arms and that it shall notbe infringed.

and...

The 14th Amendment which states "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

So how exactly can firearms be banned if the States are specifically forbidden to make/enforce laws that abridge the privileges of the citizenry? Especially since all people within the jurisdiction are guaranteed equal protection under the law?

The way I am reading it... we are citizens by virtue of being born here to naturalizing. Thus as a member of the group "The People", we have inherent right to keep and bear arms which is not to be infringed which should also restrict via the 2nd & 14th the ability for States to regulate the RTKBA.

Don't the two amendments basically make it illegal for the myriad of gun control laws to exist / be enforced?
 

flintlock tom

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darthmord wrote:
What I don't understand is the following...

2nd Amendment states The people have the right to keep and bear arms and that it shall notbe infringed.

and...

The 14th Amendment which states "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

So how exactly can firearms be banned if the States are specifically forbidden to make/enforce laws that abridge the privileges of the citizenry? Especially since all people within the jurisdiction are guaranteed equal protection under the law?

The way I am reading it... we are citizens by virtue of being born here to naturalizing. Thus as a member of the group "The People", we have inherent right to keep and bear arms which is not to be infringed which should also restrict via the 2nd & 14th the ability for States to regulate the RTKBA.

Don't the two amendments basically make it illegal for the myriad of gun control laws to exist / be enforced?
I agree, I don't understand why "incorporation" is even necessary. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights seems comprehensive and sufficient.
I get a headache every time someone tries to explain why the simple meaning of the amendments is not sufficient.
 

Hawkflyer

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There are a lot of laws on the books being enforced that should not be laws under our Constitution and BOR. But people simply will not fight, and the few that do are met with a SCOTUS that cherry picks the cases they will hear, and then instead of applying he common use of the English language to apply the meaning of the Constitution, they craft creative interpretations and make new law.

As long as people are willing to tolerate legislation from the bench, and a congress that makes law based on a distorted view of the interstate commerce clause, this will continue until we have no rights at all. We can only hope enough people wake up and are willing to act soon enough to stop it. It does not look very good right now.

But as bad as it is now, just wait until the Mexican government folds its tent. The several Mexican states are already so corrupt that the central government has largely lost control. We will see a massive migration of people whowill birth a new generation of voters who base their viewson what their parents learned from theMexican government.
 

SouthernBoy

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darthmord wrote:
What I don't understand is the following...

2nd Amendment states The people have the right to keep and bear arms and that it shall notbe infringed.

and...

The 14th Amendment which states "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

So how exactly can firearms be banned if the States are specifically forbidden to make/enforce laws that abridge the privileges of the citizenry? Especially since all people within the jurisdiction are guaranteed equal protection under the law?

The way I am reading it... we are citizens by virtue of being born here to naturalizing. Thus as a member of the group "The People", we have inherent right to keep and bear arms which is not to be infringed which should also restrict via the 2nd & 14th the ability for States to regulate the RTKBA.

Don't the two amendments basically make it illegal for the myriad of gun control laws to exist / be enforced?
Firstly, never confuse a "privilege" with a "right". The two are vastly different.

Yes, you are correct that abridging any of the rights defined within the Bill of Rights, which goes on to reserve even more rights than those mentioned to the people, is in violation of the Bill of Rights and therefore, the Constitution as well. But that hasn't seemed to stop the iconoclasts that have managed to infest the halls of congress and of the state legislatures from crushing under their heels our freedoms AND our authority.
 

SouthernBoy

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Hawkflyer wrote:
There are a lot of laws on the books being enforced that should not be laws under our Constitution and BOR. But people simply will not fight, and the few that do are met with a SCOTUS that cherry picks the cases they will hear, and then instead of applying he common use of the English language to apply the meaning of the Constitution, they craft creative interpretations and make new law.

As long as people are willing to tolerate legislation from the bench, and a congress that makes law based on a distorted view of the interstate commerce clause, this will continue until we have no rights at all. We can only hope enough people wake up and are willing to act soon enough to stop it. It does not look very good right now.

But as bad as it is now, just wait until the Mexican government folds its tent. The several Mexican states are already so corrupt that the central government has largely lost control. We will see a massive migration of people whowill birth a new generation of voters who base their viewson what their parents learned from theMexican government.
Hawk, I have written about this for years. The concept of multiculturalism and diversity, as is and has been foisted upon our nation and our people, is the single biggest and most dangerous threat to the continuance of the American way of life. The vast number of immigrants, legal and otherwise, who are coming here are not being assimilated into our culture. They are not adopting American ways, her culture, her heritage, her traditions, her history, and her institutions as their own and their new way of life. Instead, they are being encouraged to keep, maintain, and continue their own native land's ways. In time, they will become a large voting block with little allegiance to this land and without an understanding of our customs and our rights. Many, if not most, do not subscribe to the average man owning and carrying firearms.
Once enough of them have the power of the vote, we will begin to see changes in this country the likes of which would turn our Founders in their graves like a spit (God knows, they are already turning as it is).

We are loosing our national identity and the saddest part is that it is Americans who are fronting and encouraging this destruction. The younger members of this site may think I'm off the wall with this, but the ones who have been around for a while know it to be true.
 

Citizen

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Hawkflyer wrote:
SNIP We will see a massive migration of people whowill birth a new generation of voters...

Sayyyyyy!

Maybe we can give them The Fed and the national debt.

Sure!! America! The Land of Opportunity!(to get fleeced s'more). Step right this way, Senor.

:)
 

Squid13

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What did our forefathers do when their government(England) didn't support or represent them? Hmmm...I can't quite remember...oh wait! They revolted and started their own government! Maybe we could try that on for size.:celebrate
 

marshaul

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flintlock tom wrote:
darthmord wrote:
What I don't understand is the following...

2nd Amendment states The people have the right to keep and bear arms and that it shall not be infringed.

and...

The 14th Amendment which states "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

So how exactly can firearms be banned if the States are specifically forbidden to make/enforce laws that abridge the privileges of the citizenry? Especially since all people within the jurisdiction are guaranteed equal protection under the law?

The way I am reading it... we are citizens by virtue of being born here to naturalizing. Thus as a member of the group "The People", we have inherent right to keep and bear arms which is not to be infringed which should also restrict via the 2nd & 14th the ability for States to regulate the RTKBA.

Don't the two amendments basically make it illegal for the myriad of gun control laws to exist / be enforced?
I agree, I don't understand why "incorporation" is even necessary. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights seems comprehensive and sufficient.
I get a headache every time someone tries to explain why the simple meaning of the amendments is not sufficient.
Its really simple. As ratified, the Bill of Rights is part of the Federal Constitution. Historically, the Federal constitution defines the Federal government and the state constitutions define the state governments. The 14th amendment "incorporated" i.e. applied the Bill of Rights to the states because it was so applied previously, but this "incorporation" has happened in a piecemeal fashion because it has always been up to the courts to decide how the law is applied, and initially it was only relevant to apply it to certain enumerated rights within the Bill of Rights.
 

marshaul

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SouthernBoy wrote:
Well what do you expect from the 9th Circuit Court?]
Do you guys even have any idea what you're talking about? Are you aware that we expect to get incorporation of the 2nd from the 9th in a couple of months now?

Or am I missing something?
 

Gordie

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, Nevada, USA
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marshaul wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Well what do you expect from the 9th Circuit Court?]
Do you guys even have any idea what you're talking about? Are you aware that we expect to get incorporation of the 2nd from the 9th in a couple of months now?

Or am I missing something?
The 9th is the most liberal, overturned court in the nation. It would be great if they ruled in our favor, but I'm not holding my breath. But hey, it could happen, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.
 
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