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Thread: Griffin Tavern in Flint Hill

  1. #1
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    I was at Griffin Tavern in Flint Hill, VA Saturday afternoon.
    Some friends and I went in. I was the only one OC'ing. No signs were posted.
    We sat at the bar, they ordered beers, I ordered water.
    About 10 minutes later, we ordered our food. I went to the bathroom to wash my hands. About another 5 minutes after sitting back down, the female bartender asked very nicely if I had a permit for my weapon. I told her that I was OCing so no permit is necessary in VA, but I do have a CC permit and I happily showed it to her along w/ my license. She mentioned that her manager wanted her to ask. We had a short discussion about crime and she seemed very happy. Everything was good.
    Roughly 10 minutes later, I was approached from behind by the manager who did not immediately introduce herself, but simply said "Excuse me, you can't have THAT in here." I responded that I'd already spoken to the bartender and even showed her that I have a permit, indicating that I'm not a felon, etc. Also, I pointed out that I wasn't drinking alcohol, nor did I intend to.
    She then demanded that I secure my weapon in my car. I told her that since everyone had seen it, the car would likely be broken into and it wasn't my car in the first place as I'd car pooled. She was really nasty and a little slow because she responded "You MUST have come in SOME car." I then repeated that it wasn't mine and I didn't feel comfortable leaving it there.
    I then asked that we speak outside in private. We did and I remained very calm, but her tone and vitriol indicated that there was no way I could have my gun in there.
    I told her I would take a walk and come back. I asked her to please tell my friends this so I can meet up with them when they were done. Honestly, at this point, I wasn't mad at all. I was just glad that there hadn't been a big scene in front of anyone. I could go on w/ my day and I wasn't that hungry anyways.
    When my friends came back out, they told me the manager made a point that THEY would have to pay for the food I ordered. The food I neither saw nor smelled before she told me I had to leave!
    I have decided not to call the owner as a friend who knows who she is said she was there the entire time. I doubt I'll get anywhere there...

    Edit: typos

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I would call and demand (nicely) a full refund. Wish that your friends had not paid for your food - it was not their responsibility. I definitely would not have done so. :X

    Had I even part of my meal in this circumstance - I would have requested it be comped.

    Yata hey


    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  3. #3
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    Failure to render refund for services not obtained but paid for is fully within your rights.

    I would DEMAND a refund and pursue such actions as necessary to obtain it. If they refused, then I would pursue BBB and other options.

    But if I were one of your friends, I wouldn't have paid for the food unless it was leaving with us. No Service = No Payment for Services. It's that simple.

    Not only were you kicked out (their perogative) but then they followed it up with theft.

  4. #4
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    I too find the demand for payment repugnant, not to mention illegal.
    I would have acted as you all indicated, but it's a diverse world and these were work buddies so no reason to lobby for any different action.
    I just posted this as a warning to anyone who travels through Flint Hill.
    I should add that my friend who lived near there has been apologized to by everyone at the tavern, besides that particular manager and the owner of course

  5. #5
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    Doh! I took about 40 people there this past summer on a motorcycle ride. I didn't carry at the time 'cause the route I took them on included some national park land. I won't be going there again. Thanks for the update.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    double tap
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Second the advice that you call and demand a full refund.

    Inform the owner why.

    Find out if they're affiliated with the Virginia Restaurant Association, which supports the restaurant ban, and inform her that under VA law you MUST carry openly. Inform her the incident might have been avoided had you been legally able to conceal. (Never mind whether you would or would not have concealed; it's irrelevant). Urge her to contact the restaurant association and demand they drop their opposition to the ban.

    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  8. #8
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    Normally, I would call her, but this is a place a friend of mine frequents and I don't want any blow-back coming his way on account of this.
    I don't have standing because that same friend was nice enough to treat everyone there to their meals and drinks. So I didn't lose anything in this debacle. I'll be sure to return the favor sometime soon.
    I told the manager repeatedly that I would have concealed, but for the law making that illegal w/ up to a year in jail as the penalty. She was just a flaming anti. We've all met them. They're single-minded and boring. Calm, logical persuasion never seems to work on them.

    Just spread the word to people who live/vacation in that area, if you will. Beautiful part of the state, btw.

    Edit: typos

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Would you mind if I sent an email to the owner with a link to this forum so that he'll be aware of his manager's behavior and the fact that it will cost him some business?

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  10. #10
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    Nothing wrong with that. I'm just giving my account.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    Normally, I would call her, but this is a place a friend of mine frequents and I don't want any blow-back coming his way on account of this.
    I don't have standing because that same friend was nice enough to treat everyone there. So I didn't lose anything in this debacle. I'll be sure to return the favor sometime soon.
    I told the manager repeatedly that I would have concealed, but for the law making that illegal w/ up to a year in jail as the penalty. She was just a flaming anti. We've all met them. They're single-minded boring. Calm, logical persuasion never seems to work.

    Just spread the word to people who live/vacation in that area, if you will. Beautiful part of the state, btw.
    True, you don't have standing, but you have a friend who'd rather pay for a meal you can't enjoy, and not demand he get what he paid for, and at a place that denies your rights. They have the right to ban guns, but it was their choice that you not eat there.

    Your call. Just pointing out the other side.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

  12. #12
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    Good points all around Tess. If the situation were different, I expect he might have decided not to pay.
    Perhaps a downturn in business speaks louder. It's a small area and I suspect there are lots of like-minded people around. If this happens another two or three times or they put up a sign, maybe they'll feel the impact...

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Off my list - unless you were to get an apology and refund from mgt.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  14. #14
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    Just to make sure everyone knows where not to stop and spend any money:

    http://www.griffintavern.com/

    owner@griffintavern.com
    manager@griffintavern.com



  15. #15
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    Well, I just googled Flint Hill, Virginia so I could find out just where it is in the Old Dominion and lo and behold what was one of the first entries to appear?

    http://www.griffintavern.com/ The URL for the subject tavern!

    They don't have an area on the page to leave comments but they do list the email addees for the owner, the chef, and the manager.

    You know, it may or may not make a difference in how they treat law abiding citizens who happen to carry a firearm for protection, but if we were all to send a polite email telling them that we will not patronize the tavern while law abiding citizens are treated in such a rude manner, who knows, maybe they may have an epiphany? Or perhaps it was an over zealous night/assistantmanager?


    ETA: DANG! Renegade beat me by two minutes...must of been while I was proofing my entry....

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Email sent to owner:

    "I am so sorry that you have chosen to exclude the most law abiding segment of the population from your restaurant. That is your right as a private property owner. We respect that right as I am sure you will respect our right to not dine there in the future. We do maintain and "unfriendly list" which is viewed both locally and nationally to which we have added the name and location of your facility. Should your policy change, we would be most pleased to learn of such."

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=21160&forum_id=54&jump_t o=352248#p352248

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    ufcfanvt wrote:
    Normally, I would call her, but this is a place a friend of mine frequents and I don't want any blow-back coming his way on account of this.
    I don't have standing because that same friend was nice enough to treat everyone there. So I didn't lose anything in this debacle. I'll be sure to return the favor sometime soon.
    I told the manager repeatedly that I would have concealed, but for the law making that illegal w/ up to a year in jail as the penalty. She was just a flaming anti. We've all met them. They're single-minded boring. Calm, logical persuasion never seems to work.

    Just spread the word to people who live/vacation in that area, if you will. Beautiful part of the state, btw.
    Sorry to hear about your experience. They can't throw you out of a restaurant after serving you AND make you pay for your meal (it's the reverse of defrauding an innkeeper).

    I do have a question, though. Where did you learn that the penalty for CC in an alcohol serving restaurant was "up to a year in jail"? Maybe it's the late hour, but I can't find it.

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    2a4all wrote:
    ufcfanvt wrote: Sorry to hear about your experience. They can't throw you out of a restaurant before serving you AND make you pay for your meal (it's the reverse of defrauding an innkeeper).
    Fixed it for you. He said he didn't see or even smell the food.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    eyesopened wrote:
    Doh! I took about 40 people there this past summer on a motorcycle ride. I didn't carry at the time 'cause the route I took them on included some national park land. I won't be going there again. Thanks for the update.
    Wouldn't hurt to let them know they won't be getting the business next time! (especially if you know how much the group spent on previous visits)

  20. #20
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    Someone who's less-not-a-lawyer than me please help answer this. I think I remember discussing this before and the conclusion was that since § 18.2-308A is a Class1 misdemeanor, then a violation of the subsequent sections would also be a Class 1 Missy.
    Sometimes, this section of the law gets more clear, like in J1. where it specifically states carrying under the influence is a C1 Missy.

    http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504...0+cod+18.2-308

  21. #21
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    Dear Owner,

    Because of this: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/21160.html
    I will not dine in your restaurant when visiting the area.

    The personyou 86'd isa personal friend.
    He is a professional,intelligent, honest and respectful person.

    What your Mgr did to him and his friends is shameful.
    She should be charged with larceny and would be if that had been me.

    As a property owner it is your right to be able to refuse service to anyone but to demand payment when no service was rendered is boorish.

    VA Statelaw mandates that thoseofuswho choseto take personal responsibility for ourselves by legally carrying arms must do so openly in establishments that serve alcohol.


    Generally speaking, someone carrying their firearm in a legal manner posses no threat to the public.
    Criminals will not advertise their intent by openly carryingor abiding by your no gun rules, they are criminals.

    It is you right to remove unwanted personsbut if you exercise your right to remove law abiding citizens that chose to carry for self defense I will exercise my right to patronize other establishments.

    In this troubled economy I'm glad your business is doing so well you can turn away business.
    Oh wait,I forgot your Mgr. stoletheir money.

    Sincerely,
    Agent19
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  22. #22
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    I've actually ridden by there when I've been out riding on my motorcycle and was considering stopping for dinner the next time I was in the area. I'll mark that off my list unless, of course, they change their policy.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    "Amazing Mail" post card sent.


    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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