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Thread: Any explaination for the first "rule" on back of CCL?

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    If Alabama is truely OC, why is this listed on the back of my CCL:

    1. This pistol permit does not permit you to carry a gun openly.

    This has bugged me since I recieved my license. If Alabama is OC (and I believe it is) why cause the confusion of adding this on every license?

    Anyone have any thoughts or opinions?



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    Dianosis wrote:
    If Alabama is truely OC, why is this listed on the back of my CCL:

    1. This pistol permit does not permit you to carry a gun openly.

    This has bugged me since I recieved my license. If Alabama is OC (and I believe it is) why cause the confusion of adding this on every license?

    Anyone have any thoughts or opinions?

    That is absolutely accurate. However the permit also does not prohibit your carrying openly. Technically, open carry is legal and requires no permit. I'll not speculate on the purpose of putting this on your license.

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    macgulley wrote:
    Dianosis wrote:
    If Alabama is truely OC, why is this listed on the back of my CCL:

    1. This pistol permit does not permit you to carry a gun openly.

    This has bugged me since I recieved my license. If Alabama is OC (and I believe it is) why cause the confusion of adding this on every license?

    Anyone have any thoughts or opinions?

    That is absolutely accurate. However the permit also does not prohibit your carrying openly. Technically, open carry is legal and requires no permit. I'll not speculate on the purpose of putting this on your license.
    Right. I've never seen a permit that says OC is not allowed. It's a clever play on words to convince you to conceal.

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Yep even in Marshall Co. on there permit it says...This permit doesnt give you the right to carry openly.. And when an officer pointed that out to me I said you know you are right it doesnt but the second amendment does and a permit is not needed to carry open.. So this permit doesnt give me the right to carry open just to conceal and no permit is needed to ocw the second amendment gives me that right..

    He had nothing to say after that.....

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    I wonder if Alabama would print: " This driver's license does not permit you to ride a bicyle, nor to roller-skate" on the backs of their licenses?
    It's just as technically true, isn't it?


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    I just think this all has to do with that the LEO doesnt want anyone haveing guns ocw in open view and easy to get to ..... maybe they think they can draw down on you faster lolI dont know....I guess if we all could carry the way they do it would make it an even playing field.... I guess if civilians can ocw it would put them on an even playing field as the LEO

    I mean what bad guys would ocw in the open they would want to hide it cause im sure most are bad guys (felons) or cant legally own a weapon anyway and they sure wouldnt want to draw attention to themself......plus and this is just my opinion a man or lady that ocw and is out in public is more likely to prevent a crime or at least stop a crime from becoming more violent. It seems more of a deterrnt..

    I just think ifI was a bad guy and was hell bent on robbing ,hurting or what ever andI see one person alone which looks like he has no weapon orI see one man thats has a weapon ocw I would more likely go after the one person that looks like hes unarmed.. AmI the only one that thinks this way....

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    Fallschirmjäger wrote:
    I wonder if Alabama would print: " This driver's license does not permit you to ride a bicyle, nor to roller-skate" on the backs of their licenses?
    It's just as technically true, isn't it?
    I can't tell if you are being a troll or not.

    It's pretty clear that OC is legal in Alabama, despite what it says on a Pistol Permit. Remember, each individual Sheriff make their own permit. It's not like the AG signs off on them. I doubt they even have an attorney look over them.

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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    Fallschirmjäger wrote:
    I wonder if Alabama would print: " This driver's license does not permit you to ride a bicyle, nor to roller-skate" on the backs of their licenses?
    It's just as technically true, isn't it?
    I can't tell if you are being a troll or not.

    It's pretty clear that OC is legal in Alabama, despite what it says on a Pistol Permit. Remember, each individual Sheriff make their own permit. It's not like the AG signs off on them. I doubt they even have an attorney look over them.
    You are right they put what they want to on the permitand in the hopes that we dont question them or know any better and if you doquestion them they give you the run around and direct you to public relations officer then say they will check in to it and over and over in hopes you will give up..

    You would think that since they are LEO they should know the law and wouldnt have to ask or find out since they are suppose to inforce the law and its kinda sad when they are trying to enforce the laws and dont even know what they really are or dont want to admit what they are if its aganist what they want you to know or do ..

    I just wounder how many people have been arrested and charged for things that are legal but are told they are not and not many people have lotts of moany to fight or have the ways to really find out what the law really says and im sure the LEO are hopeing and knowing that it takes money to fight them and thats what alot of peopledont have is alot of money or maybe internet to really research things like this

    To be honest with you if it wasnt for the internet and this open carry site and lots of research and phone calls I could have been looked up just because they said no you cant ocw its illegal and i wouldnt have known any different and most attorneys around heredont know that ocw is legal and dont even want to take a case like this.

    It like what ever the Sheriff or a Cheif of police says is like gospel. they are starting to see that the internet is now starting to help the law abideing person like its there enemy.Knology is power and it can be used against them.. And they hate that cause now they really have to watch what they say and do.

    Another thing that bothers be is how LEO will tell the public well we did this to protect the public and they put a spin on things and try and play on the publics sympathy like they are doing them a favor to protect them the (civilians or public)and its in there best intrest and in fact some times we need to be protected from them (LEO). They always seem to act like they are doing it for us and trying to protect us and that ocw will alarm the public or your scareing people

    To me its the fact the LEO are telling people ocw is illegal and bad and then when some one sees a person ocw then they must be wrong cause the LEO said so. Thats what is scareing the public

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    To me its the fact the LEO are telling people ocw is illegal and bad and then when some one sees a person ocw then they must be wrong cause the LEO said so. Thats what is scareing the public
    “Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” -Benjamin Franklin

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    In my case the Sheriffs office and Police departments first said no , no ocw is illegal and cant do it so they pulled my permit then after the DA in my county told them it was legal and I got it back.... They went to now saying well you are alarming the public and scareing people and then pulled it again..And to top it all off i hadnt had one cal on me for a man with a gun all my dealings with LEO were at stores and food places where the cops were already there so since they have no calls on me and knowing that oce is legal they say well lets pull his permit and say hes alarming the public and knowing that pulling my permit cant keep me from ocw on foot he has to have the permit to get into a vehicle and they know im not walking everywhere.

    If this isnt a misuse of power and an injustice then what is it..I mean in the 6 mo i was ocw i had not one call of a 10-32 ( man with a gun) not one call. They just seen a way to keep me from getting from A to B without breaking the law.

    MY point is if ocw is leagl while on foot why take away my ccw permit knowingI need that to have it in my vehicle and to drive to placeis that I visit and shop, eat, fish, hang out, etc.

    I guess they sat around thinking well if ocw is legal and we dont want that here in our county then what can we do and to stop it and they came up with the idea lets pull his ccw permit and make him walk everywhere if he wants to ocw.

    IfI broke no ccw law (whichI did not) why else pull my ccw permit. Well it seems real simple to me what do you think. Am i wrong to think this ?? Does anyone else see it the wayI see it... and then have the nerve to say the night they took my weapon and permit the second time thatI come in captain ds with teeshirt, tommy hilfiger shorts and flip flops and the officer saidI got his attention, but I told him I didnt see anything in the Alabama gun laws about a dress code and didnt know there was a dress code to ocw didI over look anything Mr. LEO..LOL now that was really dumb to even say that to me..

    What do you guys think am I missing something here??? Where am I wrong in this deal. If i was breaking the law and ocw was illegal then why take my weapon and permit and not arrest me and then 3 days later give me my weapon back but not my permit .. Seems to me if im alarming the public and broke the law why not arrest me and why give me my weapon back but not my permit. I havent heard of anyone hurting another person with a permit but lets keep it and give him hisweapon back minus 2 bullets lol.....This is whats really weird.

    Again if anyone knows why a permit is kept and a weapon is not please let me know. Seems like my permit is more of an alarm, scaring peopleand adeadly weapon than my own weapon..

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    Detour said,

    " Again if anyone knows why a permit is kept and a weapon is not please let me know. Seems like my permit is more of an alarm, scaring peopleand adeadly weapon than my own weapon.."


    Detour,

    Our current law grants sheriffs broad discretion in deciding which citizens are
    fit to be issued pistol permits/licenses. Obviously, the officer who confronted
    you has convinced your sheriff that you are not fit for him to issue you a permit.

    That does not keep you from bearing arms in a vehicle. Obviously, your sheriff
    would rather have you carry a long gun in your vehicle for protection. You need
    a different sheriff when the next election rolls around. Votes are what he needs
    to stay in office, so make sure you do all you can to see he doesn't get votes and
    that a man fit to replace him as sheriff does.

    Here's an AG opinion that discusses the sheriff's discretion:

    http://www.ago.alabama.gov/pdfopinions/2003-230.pdf



    Here is the reason you got your pistol back:

    __________________________________________________ _________________

    Constitution of Alabama 1901

    SECTION 5 Unreasonable search and seizure; search warrants. That the people shall be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and possessions from unreasonable seizure or searches, and that no warrants shall issue to search any place or to seize any person or thing without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation.
    __________________________________________________ __________________

    [emphasis added: "possessions" does not appear in the Fourth Amendment to our U.S. Constitution.]



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    The sheriff does have discretion, but according to case law he must have a valid reason that someone shouldn't be allowed to possess a pistol. Key word here is possess, not carry. So if the Sheriff has a valid reason that Detour shouldn't possess a pistol than why does he say it's okay to carry it unconcealed?

    I'm not going to cite any references here as it's been covered a bajillion times. Just search the forums.

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    My two favorite lines, are #4 alcohol being served.
    I asked if this means I can now serve booze if I take off my gun since i'm in a dry county.
    and best of all #6 if I violate any of the above I will be arrested for illegal CC.
    How does one carry OC in 'violation' of number 1 get charged with CC?

    I am a little peaved at the public building sentence, but will worry about that
    one when my rights get violated in said building.

    But if you notice there is nothing there about carrying in a vehicle, and that
    is the only reason (well schools also) I even bother with it.

    Guess the best thing to do is see if the print will erase like they do with checks now.

    Anyone know if they have started imbedding the microchip in drivers licences yet?
    My wifes new one looked real strange to me.



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    Just OC inside a public building. The Sheriff can only place location restrictions on CC.

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    ol_49er wrote:
    Detour,

    Our current law grants sheriffs broad discretion in deciding which citizens are
    fit to be issued pistol permits/licenses. Obviously, the officer who confronted
    you has convinced your sheriff that you are not fit for him to issue you a permit.

    That does not keep you from bearing arms in a vehicle. Obviously, your sheriff
    would rather have you carry a long gun in your vehicle for protection. You need
    a different sheriff when the next election rolls around. Votes are what he needs
    to stay in office, so make sure you do all you can to see he doesn't get votes and
    that a man fit to replace him as sheriff does.

    Here's an AG opinion that discusses the sheriff's discretion:

    http://www.ago.alabama.gov/pdfopinions/2003-230.pdf

    Here is the reason you got your pistol back:

    __________________________________________________ _________________
    Constitution of Alabama 1901
    SECTION 5 Unreasonable search and seizure; search warrants. That the people shall be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and possessions from unreasonable seizure or searches, and that no warrants shall issue to search any place or to seize any person or thing without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation.
    __________________________________________________ __________________
    [emphasis added: "possessions" does not appear in the Fourth Amendment to our U.S. Constitution.]
    OL_49er ..I have to say thatif that LEO told the sheriff anything it had to be a lie because I was not breaking any laws and dont you think that if a man with a gun was breaking any law that he or she would or should have been arrested.

    I was ocwing that night eating with my wife. The officer was already there eating when we got there. After getting our food and getting a seat I noticed my order was wrong.The LEOapproached me at the counter as Iwas swapping a baked potato for fries and he ask me ifI was a cop I saidno, he then told meI could not carry open . I then said I have some paper work in my truck and had been infromed that ocw was legal by the DA, NRA, and a Attorney but he again saidI amtelling you its illegal and that he wasnt going to argue with me about and said he didnt care what papers I had and ask me for I.D. Then he reached overand took my weapon out of my serpa holstertook my clip out , ejected the round in the chamber, activated my laser light as this was going on I ask him if we could do this outside and to please at least look at my paper work. He layed my weapon and clip on the counter looked at my ID called it in and ask if I had a permit I said yes but a permit is not needed to OCW while on foot as its not concealed and my permit was in my truck. I again ask him to please lets do this outside and to please just look at my paper work that the DA of this county told me to make sure to keep with me if an officer was to question me. Finally he said show me what you got and said but im telling you its not legal and he wasnt going to keep argueing with me about this. I said to him im not argueing with you Im just trying to get you to look at my papers and a agreementI have sayingI can and will ocw in a peacful manner as of Alabama law. After showing him my permit and him looking at maybe one of the papers he said you know what to prove my point IM keeping your weapon and permit and to get it backI would have to talk to the chief. He also said you come in here with tee-shirt aand shorts and flip flops and alarming people.I said how did I alarm people I have OCW herea few times and no one called the cops he then said well you got my attention.. I guess whenI told him I didnt see and did not know that there was a dress code in the gun laws to carry a weapon that made him mad.

    Hewas the only one alarming anyone that night by disarming me in public with people around and ejecting a bullet and activating my laser light at the counter

    I had proof I could possess a weapon,had a permit, an agreement showing I could OCW, a AGs opinion, DAs name and phone number on my packet, Papers and court cases from an attorney, and also some NRA stuff...My god what more doesa man need??? so why takeand keep my weapon??? andI was not arrested. Alabama code 15-5-31 states clearlyI was to either get my weapon backif possessed legally or arrested butol_49 but neither of those happen and I ask why???He was being very Firm and kinda short and smart to me. He treated me unfairly and made me feel like a criminal.

    Also you are right the sheriff has broad discretion but it says clearly he has to deem ( prove )a person unsuitable..So can you answer me this?? How is swapping a potato for fries unsuitable?????

    IfI was suitable to geta permitwhenI applied for one. I must have been suitable againfor them to give it back after pulling it for ocwand beingtold by the DA that ocw was legal. Then to pull it again thistime saying now your are alarming the publicforocw. Bottom line is they dont want anyone but LEO to OCW so

    The first time they pulled it the chief deputy told me to my face that they were not pulling it becauseI was unsuitablebut that they wanted to check and make sure that ocw was legal.

    The sheriff of any county of Alabama has to have a good reason to not give a permit..He cant just not give you one cause he dont like you or because he thinks ocw should be illegal. he has to find you unsuitable and it states that in your opion you posted . And also in the alabama gun laws 13a-11-75 and see if you see the word suitable......

    § 13A-11-75. License to carry pistol in vehicle or concealed on person --

    Issuance; term; form; fee; revocation.
    The sheriff of a county, upon the application of any person residing in that county, may issue a qualified or unlimited license to such person to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on or about his person within this state for not more than one year from date ofissue, if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to his person or property or has any other proper reason for carrying a pistol, and that he is a suitable person to be so licensed. The license shall be in triplicate, in form to be prescribed by theSecretary of State, and shall bear the name, address, description, and signature of the licensee and the reason given for desiring a license. The original thereof shall bedelivered to the licensee, the duplicate shall, within seven days, be sent by registered orcertified mail to the Director of Public Safety, and the triplicate shall be preserved for six years by the authority issuing the same. The fee for issuing such license shall be one dollar ($1) which shall be paid into the county treasury unless otherwise provided by local law. Prior to issuance of a license, the sheriff shall contact available local, state, and federal criminal history data banks to determine whether possession of a firearm by anapplicant would be a violation of state or federal law. The sheriff may revoke a license upon proof that the licensee is not a proper person to be licensed.

    (Acts 1936, Ex. Sess., No. 82, p. 51; Code 1940, T. 14, §177; Acts 1947, No. 616, p. 463, §5; Acts 1951,

    No. 784, p. 1378; Code 1975, §13-6-155; Act 2006-551, §1.)

    Notice it says upon proof that the licensee is not a proper person to be licensed.

    So ol_49er Please show me or tell me where im wrong here and why or how swapping a potato makes me unsuitable.. Maybe im missing something and how is taking my weapon and not being arrested not breaking Alabama codes 15-5-31 while 15-5-30 was also being violated

    And im not sure what the last part of your post means This is why you got your weapon back....


    I got my weapon back because the DA said he wasnt going to press charges. I wasnt breaking any laws.

    I didnt get my permit back because theydont want people to OCW period.

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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    The sheriff does have discretion, but according to case law he must have a valid reason that someone shouldn't be allowed to possess a pistol. Key word here is possess, not carry. So if the Sheriff has a valid reason that Detour shouldn't possess a pistol than why does he say it's okay to carry it unconcealed?

    I'm not going to cite any references here as it's been covered a bajillion times. Just search the forums.
    Kurtmax_O ....You are right by them just taking my permit only keeps me from ccw not ocw. They take the ccw to keep me from ocw unless im on foot walking everywhere ..Its just there way to get me to comply with what they want me and all of us to do.

    Nothing I have done has anything to do with my ccw permit so why take it from me. And if they say OCW is illegal then why not arrest me. But you have to have that permit to get into a vehicle. Thats where they get you

    I wounder if I got a rifle or shotgun with a sling and wore it around everywhere if that would alarm anyone. I sure wouldnt need a permit for those in my vehicle.

    Thats why it just dont make any sence and that the reason for not needing a permit for rifles and shot guns they are hard to hide.... you cant put them in your pocket or under your shirt they areviewable thus no permit is needed but since a pistol is smaller and one can be hidden you need a permit unless you carry it in the open where it can be seen. This is so simple to see that its so hard to understand.

    Thinkabout it guys what do pistols, rifles and shotguns have in common, answer they are all weapons, fire arms, they all shoot rounds, why have a permit for one and not the others makes no sence to me.

    Only a non violant , lawfull personcanhave a permit.A crook will hide his weapon and and never have a permitno law or permit will change that. A criminal will not Ocw for fear of getting caught and going to jail.You can have a million laws, regulations and permits but do you think for one second a criminal will care NOOOOOOOOOT.. If that was the case and the laws and regulations worked for the lawfull person then we wouldnt need cops.. So why make it harder on the honest lawfull person. Criminals have weapons, hide them , rob, shoot and steal , and kill and has more rights than the man being lawful who has to pay for a permit just to carry concealed and get harrast for ocw and then have to come up with money for attorneys to fight for him when the law has worked against him but the criminal get appointed lawers, 3 meals aday, medical, and etc, etc, and who pays for that yep the honest lawful man....

    I think the permit thing is all about money anyway they cant make anything if you ocw only if you hide it can they play with the laws, charge fees,or make the laws up for ccw as the second amendment wont let them change the part of right to keep and bear arms. So what do they do ahhhhh lets have a ccw law and permit and charge a fee since we cant infringeon the God givenright to keep and bear armsdue to the 2nd amendment ofconstitutionwe can regulate concealment without infringing on a persons right to keep and bear arms cause the constitution says nothing about the right to keep and conceal arms lol...

    Sorry kurtmax_o I am just venting and I am very sorry for the long winded reply lol but some of the commnets I have seen others make (NOT YOU). Really fires me up lol and I will be asking my Attorney Mr.Hooper Monday about posting my whole story somewhere in here so everyone who ask or is new or who only knows some of whats going on can read it and then see that what was done to me and others like is wrong and has to be stopped and fought in court or we might as well just act like the 2nd amendment and the constitution dont exsist.Its just getting old repeated everything over and over and over and I know Ive had to repeat some of my stuff alot and im sorry for that but what do you do lol... ( post the story and have others to look at it) lol

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    Detour,

    It appears that you totally misunderstood what I was saying. I think your sheriff
    is wrong, but you are already seeing that the the law as it is currently written
    makes it hard to fight a sheriff that uses his broad discretion to take away
    your permit. The AG opinion supporting broad discretion is not binding, but
    it is very persuasive according to court opinions that have been written in
    other situations. Our interpretation doesn't matter much to them.

    Your sheriff likes it that way. That's why I suggested getting a new sheriff with a better attitude as a possible solution. Changing the law would be even better.

    I also pointed out that you are afforded more protection by the Constitution
    of Alabama than by the US Constitution because it protects your "possessions"
    from seizure. Your rights were flagrantly violated, and it should be no surprise
    that your property was returned to you. That's the point I was trying to make.
    It certainly would not have been returned if there was the same broad discretion
    allowed as your sheriff seems to have in deciding to keep your pistol license.
    I'm sure your attorney will not allow it to be taken so lightly that the officer that
    took your weapon flagrantly violated your constitutional rights.

    I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I wish you well.

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    ol_49er wrote:
    Detour,

    It appears that you totally misunderstood what I was saying. I think your sheriff
    is wrong, but you are already seeing that the the law as it is currently written
    makes it hard to fight a sheriff that uses his broad discretion to take away
    your permit. The AG opinion supporting broad discretion is not binding, but
    it is very persuasive according to court opinions that have been written in
    other situations. Our interpretation doesn't matter much to them.

    Your sheriff likes it that way. That's why I suggested getting a new sheriff with a better attitude as a possible solution. Changing the law would be even better.

    I also pointed out that you are afforded more protection by the Constitution
    of Alabama than by the US Constitution because it protects your "possessions"
    from seizure. Your rights were flagrantly violated, and it should be no surprise
    that your property was returned to you. That's the point I was trying to make.
    It certainly would not have been returned if there was the same broad discretion
    allowed as your sheriff seems to have in deciding to keep your pistol license.
    I'm sure your attorney will not allow it to be taken so lightly that the officer that
    took your weapon flagrantly violated your constitutional rights.

    I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I wish you well.
    You are right I did misunderstand you and I am very sorry for that.

    However that AGs opinion you posted was on if the sheriff could use the persons youthful offender statusto base his decisionon whether to grant or deny a pistol permit. The answer was the sheriffmay not deny a pistol permit based solely on the fact that the person was granted youthful offender status, he may not base his decision on any information concerning the completion of any court-imposed requirements under that statute.

    That there to me sounds like hedoes nothave full discretion and he would be violating 15-19-7 if his decision was based on that at all...

    Which takes me back to my case or complaint I was issued a permit when I applied and re issued again to only have it pulled again for the very same thing it was pulled for the first time and thats becauseI was OCWing. The LEO took my weapon and my permit for that reason and that reason only and even stated so. I was not arrested and I have the same record as whenI applied the first time. I have broken no laws and have a clean record and no violance in my whole life. He cant just revoke a permit just because he wants to or cause he dont like it because I ocw. 13A-11-75 statesHe has to have proof that im not a proper person. So Im asking wheres the proof. (Is it becauseI didnt want a baked potato).... lol

    And yes you are very much right in the fact that the sheriff has wide discretion but he has limits and laws he has to follow as well and its up to citizens and the public to hold him accountableand as you stated voting is one way to do that but also holding them accountable for there actions and not balking or taking everything they say to be law they make mistakes to. theres no telling what the LEO told his chief and what the chief told the sheriff butI can tell you this if he told them really happen thenI would have my permit now.

    Againg im sorry for misundersand you or if I sounded out of line....I meant no harm and as you can see this is whereI vent my frustrations lol...and I do see your point and what you were saying about the constitution. And thats why the attorney is sayingI was my rights were violated 15-5-31 is prettyclear. LOLthe attorney says he pretty much stole my weapon and kept it 3 days.

    Thanks for the reply and for letting me vent lol

  24. #24
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    Apr 2007
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    Auburn, Alabama, USA
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    Nowhere have I been able to find that the Sheriff can revoke a permit for any reason. There have to be specific facts involved in each case that causes the Sheriff to believe a person should not own or possess a pistol.

    For Detour, the Sheriff has said to carry a pistol.. but just not in a car or concealed.

    Hess vs Butler

    [...]we are unable to say that the respondent abused his discretion or that the refusal to grant petitioner a license to carry a pistol was arbitrary or capricious in light of the undisputed evidence that the petitioner has been repeatedly convicted of violating the criminal laws of this state.
    -

    While the negative of this isn't established precedent (that is, it is arbitrary and capricious in the absence of any convictions), it's a pretty good chance it is.

    In fact I can't find any cases where a permits was denied that didn't involve an actual crime committed.

    In addition, a Sheriff must have specific facts in each case. Not just a whim:

    AGO 91-227

    The question of whether a person is a suitable person to be licensed to carry a pistol is a factual determination to be made considering the facts in each case
    It's also pretty obvious that a Sheriff cannot refuse to issue permits at all.

    AGO 00-163

    The Legislature intended that the sheriffs of the counties issue pistol permits in appropriate cases.
    In addition, the sheriff may refuse to issue a permit for two reasons:

    - a person is not qualified to carry a pistol
    - the sheriff may use his sound judgment to refuse to issue [...] if there are circumstances causing the sheriff to believe reasonably that the person should not possess or own a pistol.

    In the first case, qualified in a legal sense means a specific set of conditions that must be met. For example, XYZ certification or training, criminal records, etc. If the sheriff is issuing permits to other people that have the same qualifications as Detour, than this does not apply to Detour.

    In the second case it explicitly states reason to believe the person should not posses or own a pistol.... not carry. If the sheriff believed he should not possess or own a pistol, he would not have returned the pistol to him and had his deputies make it clear that he can carry the pistol unconcealed, but not in his vehicle.

    Additionally, if the Sheriff were to find 'facts' in this case (which would be necessary if taken to court), I'm not sure if the reason for revoking the permit was OC it would fly. OC is constitutionally protected of course, and the Supreme Court of Alabama actually considers it to be a defensive method of carry.. as opposed to CC.

    This whole thing stinks of official 'bullying' and trying to prevent a legal act through abuse of power.

  25. #25
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    Oct 2008
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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    Nowhere have I been able to find that the Sheriff can revoke a permit for any reason. There have to be specific facts involved in each case that causes the Sheriff to believe a person should not own or possess a pistol.

    For Detour, the Sheriff has said to carry a pistol.. but just not in a car or concealed.

    Hess vs Butler

    [...]we are unable to say that the respondent abused his discretion or that the refusal to grant petitioner a license to carry a pistol was arbitrary or capricious in light of the undisputed evidence that the petitioner has been repeatedly convicted of violating the criminal laws of this state.
    -

    While the negative of this isn't established precedent (that is, it is arbitrary and capricious in the absence of any convictions), it's a pretty good chance it is.

    In fact I can't find any cases where a permits was denied that didn't involve an actual crime committed.

    In addition, a Sheriff must have specific facts in each case. Not just a whim:

    AGO 91-227

    The question of whether a person is a suitable person to be licensed to carry a pistol is a factual determination to be made considering the facts in each case
    It's also pretty obvious that a Sheriff cannot refuse to issue permits at all.

    AGO 00-163

    The Legislature intended that the sheriffs of the counties issue pistol permits in appropriate cases.
    In addition, the sheriff may refuse to issue a permit for two reasons:

    - a person is not qualified to carry a pistol
    - the sheriff may use his sound judgment to refuse to issue [...] if there are circumstances causing the sheriff to believe reasonably that the person should not possess or own a pistol.

    In the first case, qualified in a legal sense means a specific set of conditions that must be met. For example, XYZ certification or training, criminal records, etc. If the sheriff is issuing permits to other people that have the same qualifications as Detour, than this does not apply to Detour.

    In the second case it explicitly states reason to believe the person should not posses or own a pistol.... not carry. If the sheriff believed he should not possess or own a pistol, he would not have returned the pistol to him and had his deputies make it clear that he can carry the pistol unconcealed, but not in his vehicle.

    Additionally, if the Sheriff were to find 'facts' in this case (which would be necessary if taken to court), I'm not sure if the reason for revoking the permit was OC it would fly. OC is constitutionally protected of course, and the Supreme Court of Alabama actually considers it to be a defensive method of carry.. as opposed to CC.

    This whole thing stinks of official 'bullying' and trying to prevent a legal act through abuse of power.
    I could nothave said that any better......You are right it is bullying....They did a back ground check and what ever else is involved when they gave me a permit the first time and im sure another before they gave it back.. the second time when they got my weapon and permit and I was told 3 days later I could come get my weapon that as soon as they did a back ground checkto make sureI was able to have a weapon they would release it and they did that I was clean and got it back.

    So I know of 2 if not 3 times they run checks on me and I am pretty sure before they gave me my weapon back they were looking for any reason not to...

    But guys this case is to simple the fact are what they are and all that happen that night was just a LEO saying OCW was illegal and I had no reason to have it taken from me either time my weapon or permit. Just there shift in there story of its illegal to well if it is legal you are alarming the public but yet they have no records of phone calls from anyone in the public for a man with a gun as I sure would have been the first to know as evey LEO in radio distance would have been on me like they did to Mr.Mathis at the walmart Plus i wasnt ever arrested.

    So what other reason would they say they are not giving me my permit back and why would the city that took my weapon and permit give my permit to the sheriff the night they took it all and 3 days later return my weapon and tell me I would have to get my permit back from the sheriff. No law was broken and I think the city if they had my weapon they should have kept my permit unless they were going to have arrested me or at least waited to see what the DA said about the law. It just dont make any since other then They just dont want people here in this county to OCW they said that over and over and even said if it is legal it shouldnt be...I mean here you have LEO that should know the law and enforce it but yet dont even know what the law and are trying to enforce something thats not law...

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