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Thread: When the Cop Runs Your Serial Number

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    From David Hardy's blog, http://www.armsandthelaw.com/ Discussing an article in the DC Examiner.

    "“Officer, I am carrying a firearm in compliance with North Carolina law.” So began my exchange during a traffic stop. (Sorry, I have a lead foot.) He replied, “May I have it, sir?” Since this was before I knew enough to say “no,” I complied. The officer then took my gun to his car, traced it and, finding nothing amiss, returned it to me. MAIG’s report would have you believe my gun is a “crime gun” because it would be included in the gun trace reports on which its study is based.

    Therein lies the scam: Although gun control advocates call gun tracing a measure of crime, traced guns are not necessarily “crime guns.” Says the Congressional Research Service: “Trace requests are not accurate indicators of specified crimes…traces may be requested for a variety of reasons not necessarily related to criminal incidents.” Indeed, BATFE encourages police to trace all guns encountered."



    Jeezus!!! Another reason not to disclose to police that you are carrying (unless required by law.)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  2. #2
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    glad the police down here dont ask for my gun if/when i tell them im carrying

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    Jeezus!!! Another reason not to disclose to police that you are carrying (unless required by law.)
    Ok. So this is an OC forum, how do you not let the LEO know you have a weapon?
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    Jeezus!!! Another reason not to disclose to police that you are carrying (unless required by law.)
    Ok. So this is an OC forum, how do you not let the LEO know you have a weapon?
    We've a number of folks with CCW licenses. As I recall, a number of traffic stops have been reported where the driver volunteered he was carrying.

    Besides, BearFlyer (), this is from the forum rules:

    NOTE: This is not a general discussion web site - even the thread for "general discussions" must be fairly related to open carry,firearms and gun rights. (emphasis in the original)

    I've noticed a bit of harshness lately. Have you been taking cranky pills, Sensei?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    r6-rider wrote:
    glad the police down here dont ask for my gun if/when i tell them im carrying
    Braggart!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen quoted:
    SNIP Indeed, BATFE encourages police to trace all guns encountered."
    Hmmmmm. I should like to get my hands on that memo.

    Sounds like a possibleadvocacy to violate rights.

    Remember the Richmond guy who called the police for something related to (his tenants?)

    While in his home, one of them just up and ran the serial number on a gun he had laying on his kitchen table (for cleaning?).

    I wonder.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    I've noticed a bit of harshness lately. Have you been taking cranky pills, Sensei?
    No.

    But my cherub like demeanor has worn a bit thin by trying to remain civil in the face of a long stream of insults. While your well may be bottomless, for me tolerance for idiotsis a zero sum game, and my supply is running low just now.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    I've noticed a bit of harshness lately. Have you been taking cranky pills, Sensei?
    No.

    But my cherub like demeanor has worn a bit thin by trying to remain civil in the face of a long stream of insults. While your well may be bottomless, for me tolerance for idiotsis a zero sum game, and my supply is running low just now.
    ROFLMAO

    (mainly because I can sympathize, deeply.)



    Edited to add: We'll call it the Hawkflyer Zero Sum Principle. Christ, I'm still laughing minutes later while doing this edit-to-add.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    I've noticed a bit of harshness lately. Have you been taking cranky pills, Sensei?
    No.

    But my cherub like demeanor has worn a bit thin by trying to remain civil in the face of a long stream of insults. While your well may be bottomless, for me tolerance for idiotsis a zero sum game, and my supply is running low just now.
    Makes want to start flaming you just to see what happens when you run out.:celebrate

    I agree with Citizen about wanting to see that memo from BATFE, if it indeed exists.

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    What would a LEO do if you "ran his numbers?" Probably have something to do with handcuffs and a personal assault charge, not to mention the possibility of being shot or clubbed unconscious. The scales are dangerously tipped to one side and it's getting close to the boiling point.
    When the **** hits the fan, ask yourself: What Would Bugly Do?

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    Jeezus!!! Another reason not to disclose to police that you are carrying (unless required by law.)
    Ok. So this is an OC forum, how do you not let the LEO know you have a weapon?
    I got pulled over on Interstate 5 in Central California aboutsiz monthsago while UOC. I was carrying a Sig P220 OWB in a Serpa CQC at 3:30 in a Toyota Camry. The officer made contact with me from the passenger side. Niether he nor I ever said a word about me carrying.

    He didn't even right me a ticket! :celebrate

    I've always wanted an excuse to use the dancin' banana!!!!

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    Citizen wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    I've noticed a bit of harshness lately. Have you been taking cranky pills, Sensei?
    No.

    But my cherub like demeanor has worn a bit thin by trying to remain civil in the face of a long stream of insults. While your well may be bottomless, for me tolerance for idiotsis a zero sum game, and my supply is running low just now.
    ROFLMAO

    (mainly because I can sympathize, deeply.)



    Edited to add: We'll call it the Hawkflyer Zero Sum Principle. Christ, I'm still laughing minutes later while doing this edit-to-add.

    ha, ha, ha, omg!

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    ...SNIP
    Jeezus!!! Another reason not to disclose to police that you are carrying (unless required by law.)
    Ok. So this is an OC forum, how do you not let the LEO know you have a weapon?
    NC is a notify state. I'm sure if they had Danbus in the car for OC, they would be asking if he notified them. Since notified is probably not defined, they would try to haul him in for not verbally notifying.

    *Danbus was just used as an example since LEOs apparently look for reason to arrest him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Jeezus!!! Another reason not to disclose to police that you are carrying (unless required by law.)
    The OP was in North Carolina. In this State, law abiding citizens that have a concealed handgun permit, and are carrying a concealed handgun at the time, must inform an officer of both upon first contact. Oddly enough, those that are illegally carrying a concealed handgun without a permit aren't required by law to inform the officer. So the law only very specifically applies to law abiding citizens, not criminals.

    Anyway I have yet to run into a NC leo that wanted to run the serial on my sidearm. If one ever does, I'm sure my response will be something to the extent of "I'll show you mine if you show me yours."

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    Citizen, I think in this case because the cop asked if he could have it that it wouldn't be violating rights because then it was handed over voluntarily. If he had told him to give it to him I think it would be different. Semantics yes, but an important difference anyway.

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    bordsnbikes wrote:
    Citizen, I think in this case because the cop asked if he could have it that it wouldn't be violating rights because then it was handed over voluntarily. If he had told him to give it to him I think it would be different. Semantics yes, but an important difference anyway.
    Yes, but that is an entirely different subject.

    Here we are talking about whether gun traces are a reflection of crime.

    I think the inaccuracy goes deeper than one might first think. We've quite a few reports on this forum of police running serial numbers (trace) on guns.

    From one angle,law-abiding citizens' willingness to surrender theircarry weapon during a police encounter is creatingstatistics that arethen used againstus.

    It doubly angers me that in some states you are required to notify the officer. Then, the officer can seize the gun just cause he feels like it while claiming Terry authority. Then, on a fishing expedition, he canrun the serial number.

    Also, I don't see that LE made any real effort to explain themagnitude of error in using traces to estimatecrime. They didn't even bother to say (or at least it wasn't reported), "Oh, no. Totally inaccurate. We run the serial numbers of legal guns all the time. Usually during traffic stops where the citizennotified the officerof a gun out of courtesy, or as required in some states."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Also, I don't see that LE made any real effort to explain themagnitude of error in using traces to estimatecrime. They didn't even bother to say (or at least it wasn't reported), "Oh, no. Totally inaccurate. We run the serial numbers of legal guns all the time. Usually during traffic stops where the citizennotified the officerof a gun out of courtesy, or as required in some states."
    Why would they? More data means more power, and LE always wants more power, more authority, more "crimefighting tools", more protection from lawsuits, more discretion, more, more, more.

    It doesn't matter that traces don't necessarily solve crimes today, having access to the data may make it easier to solve them tomorrow, when better data-mining methods and software becomes available. I work for a company with government customers, and I know how they think. "Give us the power now, we'll figure out a use for it later. In the meantime, trust us. We won't use it to encroach on your liberty, honest."

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Also, I don't see that LE made any real effort to explain themagnitude of error in using traces to estimatecrime. They didn't even bother to say (or at least it wasn't reported), "Oh, no. Totally inaccurate. We run the serial numbers of legal guns all the time. Usually during traffic stops where the citizennotified the officerof a gun out of courtesy, or as required in some states."
    Why would they? More data means more power, and LE always wants more power, more authority, more "crimefighting tools", more protection from lawsuits, more discretion, more, more, more.

    It doesn't matter that traces don't necessarily solve crimes today, having access to the data may make it easier to solve them tomorrow, when better data-mining methods and software becomes available. I work for a company with government customers, and I know how they think. "Give us the power now, we'll figure out a use for it later. In the meantime, trust us. We won't use it to encroach on your liberty, honest."

    I see through your thinly-veiled attempts to curry favor with me!

    You're just trying to get me to buy the scotch next time we get together.



    PS: Its working.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
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    Black tape over the serial num. The peeling back of the tape is a 'search' and not related to officer safety.

    Carry on.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Also, I don't see that LE made any real effort to explain themagnitude of error in using traces to estimatecrime. They didn't even bother to say (or at least it wasn't reported), "Oh, no. Totally inaccurate. We run the serial numbers of legal guns all the time. Usually during traffic stops where the citizennotified the officerof a gun out of courtesy, or as required in some states."
    Why would they? More data means more power, and LE always wants more power, more authority, more "crimefighting tools", more protection from lawsuits, more discretion, more, more, more.

    It doesn't matter that traces don't necessarily solve crimes today, having access to the data may make it easier to solve them tomorrow, when better data-mining methods and software becomes available. I work for a company with government customers, and I know how they think. "Give us the power now, we'll figure out a use for it later. In the meantime, trust us. We won't use it to encroach on your liberty, honest."

    I see through your thinly-veiled attempts to curry favor with me!

    You're just trying to get me to buy the scotch next time we get together.



    PS: Its working.

    Ahem...:X
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  21. #21
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:



    I see through your thinly-veiled attempts to curry favor with me!

    You're just trying to get me to buy the scotch next time we get together.



    PS: Its working.

    Ahem...:X
    Don't worry, I'm sure he means you, too. Besides, I'll supply the bourbon, and we can compare notes.

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    I guess I don't understand what statistic you are talking about. Like they run 10 numbers and 4 are stolen that means that 40% of the guns are stolen and makes the legal law abiding gun owners look bad?

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    bordsnbikes wrote:
    I guess I don't understand what statistic you are talking about. Like they run 10 numbers and 4 are stolen that means that 40% of the guns are stolen and makes the legal law abiding gun owners look bad?
    I think what he means is they run 10 numbers and 4 of them are stolen, but all ten are counted as "crime guns" because the owners werestopped for traffic violationswhen they got searched.

  24. #24
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I see through your thinly-veiled attempts to curry favor with me!

    You're just trying to get me to buy the scotch next time we get together.



    PS: Its working.

    Ahem...:X
    Don't worry, I'm sure he means you, too. Besides, I'll supply the bourbon, and we can compare notes.
    Yes, I should include him. I understand scotch is a good remedy for "ahems." Eases the throat pain or something.

    But, if I may make a mild protest,he hasn't been doing any favor-currying lately.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  25. #25
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    bordsnbikes wrote:
    I guess I don't understand what statistic you are talking about. Like they run 10 numbers and 4 are stolen that means that 40% of the guns are stolen and makes the legal law abiding gun owners look bad?
    I think what he means is they run 10 numbers and 4 of them are stolen, but all ten are counted as "crime guns" because the owners werestopped for traffic violationswhen they got searched.
    WhatI took away from it wasthat the anti-s weregiving the impressionif a trace was made, it was made because the police had seized a gun in relation to a crime.

    My objection is that there are probably quite a number of traces that have nothing to do with a crime, just an LEO fishing trip during a traffic stop or what-have-you.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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