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Thread: Attorney Generals Opinion

  1. #1
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    Hi guys and gals. and all my B.I.A

    I have looked to see what it takes to get an updated opinion on OCW in Alabama from Troy King. It says


    Who is entitled to request an Attorney General's opinion?
    Any officer, governing body, department or agency of the State, a county, or municipality.
    I have a friend who is a Police Chief in a town in another county and I have talked to him a couple times and we may do lunch next week. I was thinking of asking him if he could or would see about getting an opinion on the ocw laws . He has ask me to bring him any and all paper workI have on the subject as he wants to educate his officers on the matter.

    From whatI have seen on the AGs home page it says any officer or department can request an opinion.

    Do you guys think this is a good idea and if so what questions would you think are the most important. Please email me or make a post here.

    I am thinking if he will ask for an opinion which im sure he will notjust for me but for his departmnt for legal reasons and he seems very eager to know the details of ocw.That maybe with a more updated opinion and one thats based on more questions than the old opinion from 1984.

    I for sure want to ask isit legal fora person who is legally able to possess and have a fire arm to OCW in places where as not prohidited by law while on foot.

    I will also want him to ask an opinion oncould a person be deemed unsuitableand have his ccw permit pulled for CCW while on foot if that person is legally able to have and possess a firearm and is not breaking any of laws at the time.

    So what do you guys think??? Please help me out on this ...I want to know just how much discretion a Sheriff has. What proof he needs to find a person unsuitable to revoke a permit.

    If you read Alabama gun law 13a-11-75 at the end it says The sheriff may revoke a licence upon proof that the licensee is not a proper person to be licenced.

    I dont see anything in there that says ocw is proof to revoke and makes a person unsuitable or not a proper person for Ocwing..

    Thanks guys andmy ( B.I.A) I cant wait to hear from you guys

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    No sheriff is going to ask for an opinion since they know what the answer is, and they'd rather have it be fuzzy.

    The questions the chief asks probably have to relate to his position, so we won't be able to get your specific questions answered (about permits.. since that's a sheriff things).

    If he requests an opinion, is he having an attorney draft it or anything? Some specific questions need to be asked to clarify everything, otherwise it'd be pointless.

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    SFCRetired wrote:
    As for pulling a CCW permit for OC, I would suspect the sheriff would go with a "disorderly conduct" charge as being proof even if that charge were subsequently dropped.
    [/quote]

    Note that the court cases I showed talked about previous convictions, not charges. While pending charges might be grounds to revoke a permit, once the charges are dropped or the person has been acquitted, there are no longer any grounds.

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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    No sheriff is going to ask for an opinion since they know what the answer is, and they'd rather have it be fuzzy.

    The questions the chief asks probably have to relate to his position, so we won't be able to get your specific questions answered (about permits.. since that's a sheriff things).

    If he requests an opinion, is he having an attorney draft it or anything? Some specific questions need to be asked to clarify everything, otherwise it'd be pointless.
    Yes the attorney is working on the questions to ask....And he has said the chief can ask and get an opinion but they couldnt be ask on behalf of me but could be ask as how to treat such said offence in there town if it was to happen.

    And you are right as to the Chief asking for for his position or department he has even said he wanted to know what the law was on it so he could train his officers on it. He has said he has been ask that before from others in his town and also another officer soI guess if they would be seeing people OCWing in there town they would need to know if its legal as not to make a false arrest and also how to handle such a case.

    The attorney has said the questions should be ask pertaining to not only if the old AGs opinion is still valid but also would he as the cheif of Police have the right to takeaway a weapon and permit ifa person was OCW while on foot if said person was not breaking in other laws and was legally able to possess and have such said weapon...(But if OCW is legal then that answer should beNo he can not take the weapon orpermit)..But of course if it was illegal to OCW then IM sure the answer would be YESand they could keep my weapon as well and charge me with illegally carring a firearm..

    WhatI am hoping to get out of this is at least another opinion or something more updated say that ocw while on foot with or with out a permit is legal and maybe an answer on if a permit can be revoked for the reason of OCWing in public while on foot and said person is legally able to have and possess such said firarm..

    Or maybe just plain and simple can a sheriff revoke a ccw permit based solely on the fact that a person ocw in public if said person can legally own and possess a firearm and is not breaking any othr law.

    My thinking is that if OCW is legal and the sheriffsays they revoked it this time cause ocw is alarming the public then thats no bases for revokeing a ccwpermit if it is legal to carry OCW. If OCW is alarming the public sound like they need some Public relations or advertiseing or something letting the public know that OCW is legal but I guess if you are being told by LEO that ocw is illegal and the public see a LEO disarming people that OCW well I guess that in its self could be alarming so that to me means its the LEO that are alarming the public one for not knowing the law and or not admitting it and informing the public as to what the law really is.

    That makes me alarmed knowing that LEO or deparments and not knowing what the gun law codes are and yet they are out there tring to enforce laws they think or want to be the law.. isnt that alarming to any other people here..

    If ocw is legal then let me be if im not breaking any other laws and if its not legal then tell me and ill ccw but dont tell me its illegal then say its alarming the public just because you dont want me or others to ocw..

    LoL... Kurtmax see I have vented again and did another long post lol I am sorry man

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    Well. Obviously the Chief can't take the permit unless requested by the Sheriff. It's not in his domain, regardless of OC or not.

    Some other questions to ask would be, if someone can be stopped and searched for OCing, absent of anything else.

    Or of OC can be 'disorderly conduct' in and of itself.

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    Im not sure where the disorderly conduct comes from as I was not arrested or charged with anything....

    LikeI have said many, many times before.... The first time they pulled my permit 2 deputys were at a store thatI had stopped at they said that ocw was illegaland I couldnt carry that way and if I didnt put it in my truck they were going to arrest me so I did as they told me. I tried to show them some of the papers i had and they didnt want to see any of it and jsut kept saying its not legal in alabama to carry on to another persons property andI said thats 13a-11-52 and thatwas repealed or superseded by 13a-11-73... the one deputy threw his hands up and saidI dont know what the codes are butI know you cantcarry that in the open. So after putting my weapon in my truck and talking to them a few more minutes I left and went the next day to the sheriffs office to ask why i had to put my weapon in my truck and why after 3 mo of asking them about OCW they still didnt have an answer thats when the chief deputy said that alabama is not an open carry state and I tried to show him the AGs opion and some court cases and he didnt want to see any and pounded his desk with his fist and said Im telling you that Alabama isnt open carry ,I dont want to see any of you paper work and that he would look into it himself and that if I ocw again they would pull my permit . I said ok that I would either conceal it or keep it at home till he got back to me with an answer soI left andI still had my permit. After i left I was upset that he wouldnt even look at my papers at all so after talking to the NRA again and I thought ifI faxed the sheriffs office my papers they would have to look at them.

    I faxed my papers to them on a wednesday at 11:50 am and at 4:30 pm that same day the same 2 deputys that had told meI could not ocw and to put it in my truck came to my house to get my permit. I was not there and was eating at ryans steak house andI got a phone call there it was my son telling me that 2 deputys were there and needed to talk to me I heard one of the deputys in a smart tone tell my sonI thought he didnt have a cell phone I ask my son to put him on the phone and told him I dont have a cell phone and that I had told my son where i was and i ask what they needed with me.he said they had to speak with me right then and that they could come to me or me come to them as I didnt want to cause a scene at ryans I told them I would meet them half way if that was OK and when i got to the store theywere already there the one deputy said the sheriff sent them to get my permit and I ask why???I had just wentto the sheriffs officeon monday 2 days ago and the Chief deputy said not to ocw againtill he found out what the law was on ocw or he would pull my permit and as you can seeI dont have my weaponand have kept my word and hadnt ocw at all. As I give him my permit the deputy says well I guess you can ocw now and as he holds my permit up in his hand he says buy you know you have to have this permit when you get in a vehicle when you carry a weapon. Thats whenI said wait a minute your telling me its ok to ocw now but the other day your telling me its illegal and I would go to jail and now your taking my prmit but didnt take it the day I came in the sheriffs office. he says well until we can find out what the law is on ocw the sheriff ask to pick it up but why then say I can ocw now when you say you dont know what the law is and why come get my permit 4 hours after I fax the same papers you all didnt even want to look at. then he ask me why i wanted to push this open carry stuff and that he was a cop and didnt carry while off duty. I told him it was my right to ocw and that ifI choose to exercise that rightand was not breakingany laws and that just because he didnt carry off duty that was his chose and he was exerciseing his right but takeing mine away and maybe it was his department policy for him not to carry off duty for liability purpose. So they said a few more things and left with my permit.

    I go to the sherifffs office the next day and talk to the chief deputy againand ask why he had them pull my permit and why he didnt take it whenI was there 2 days before. I said its funny that 4 hours after faxing the papers I want you to look at that they come get my permit that doesnt look good and then tell me i can ocw after telling meI cant. I ask him if i was unsuitable to have it

    He said they just wanted to checkand make sure it was legal and they would get back to me... He said to my face that im not pulling it because your unsuitable thats not the reason causeI ask him that..we are pulling it till we get an answer on this ocwandI said but why tell me its illegal if it is and now say you have to see if it is im confused now fore sure...So I left with out my permit thats when I talked to the DA and the DA said yes it is legal but with restrictions but with the paper work you have faxed me you seem to know what those restrictions are and he would talk to the sheriffs office and let them know what the law was on OCW. The DA also said to make sure I keep all my paper work in my vehicle incaseI was questioned again by another LEO.So the next dayI go to the sheriffs office and askthe chief deputy was like hey man how are you...he actedall happy and glad to see me and said hey your getting your permit back today come on back here to my office andI was a little shocked as to how happy he was as we walked to his office I ask did the DA talk to you guys about the OCW law he said no why??? I said well he said he was going to talk to you... as we got to his office The chief deputy said all i had to do was sign this paper andI could get my permit back as i read this paper he gave me I ask him why is this is worded like I wrote this to the sheriff and he says yeh well we typed it up for you and if you sign it you can get your permit today well asI read over it and it said:

    Dear Sheriff ****

    By copy of this letter,I wish to acknowledge that my pistol permit will be returned to me, as long as I meet the following conditions:

    #1- I will only carry my weapon concealed at all times

    #2- I will not carry my weapon in the open at any time as to cause concern, alarm, or for reasons to annoy, disturb, or intimidate the public in any way.

    #3- I will not get into any conflict with any LEO what so ever

    I alsounderstand that If i enter into this agreement and fail to meet any of the above conditions, I must surrender my permit to you, and that the permit will be revoked permanently. By signature below,I indicate my agreement to abide by the conditions set forth in this letter.

    I looked at him and said IM not signing this. IfI signed thisI wouldbe signingmy rights away and you have to be kidding me. I will have to let someone look at this first I cant sign this. He said well if you sign it I have your permit there on my desk and you can leave here with it today. I said I cant I didnt even type this up and I want someone to look at this first and Ill have to let you know tomorrow or the next day... So I left woundering why didnt the DA call them. So I go home fax that letter to the NRA, MR.Hooper, and the DA of my county with a cover sheet saying Is this a joke or what???

    After sending all the faxes I then called the Da to Find out why he didnt talk with the sheriffs office...He said he had called over there and I told him that chief deputy said he hadnt spoke to you . He said yesI called him andI could hear him moving papers in the back ground and he says it was 11 am or so. I told him I had just left from there at about 1:30 or so . I wounder why he lied to me.The DA said im going to call him again and you go by there tomorrow.

    That night I thoughtI would write my own agreementwith my own wordsandconditions to take with me the next day and heres what it said:

    July 14,2008 Sheriff ********

    **********Sheriffs Office

    address

    Dear Sheriff *****:

    By copy of this letter, I wish to acknowledge that my pistol permit will be returned to me,as long asI meet the following conditions:

    # 1 - I will only carry my weapon openly in a peaceful manner for self- defense and or personal protection while in my uniform and or wearing my badge as a Fugitive Recovery Agent, Private Investigator,or Executive Body Guard, with my uniform and or badge viewable to the public so as not to alarm, As by Alabama Law

    #2 - I will carry my pistol concealed, only in a peaceful manner when not in my uniform and or badge, As by Alabama Law

    #3 - I will follow all Federal and Alabama State gun laws in a peaceful manner at all times.

    #4 - I will conduct myself in a peaceful and respectful manner at all times, As by Alabama Law.

    #5 - I will not disobey any lawful order from any law enforcement officer at anytime, As by Alabama Law.

    #6 - I will not carry my weapon openly or concealed in an unpeaceful or unlawful manner with the attempt to cause concern, alarm, or for reasons to annoy, disturb, or intimidate the public in any way.

    #7 - I will only carry my weapon in a peaceful manner for self-defense, personal protection, or to protect me or my family from death or serious bodily harm.

    #8 - I will attend or take part in a gun safety,self-defense, or public safety course and or class at my own expense. Within 30 days (If required).

    I understand that if I enter into this agreement and fail to meet any of the above conditions, I must surrender my permit to you, and that permit will be revoked for the remaining term of that permit. By my signature below, I indicate my agreement to abide by the conditions set forth in this letter.

    Dated:

    signed:

    The next day I go to the sheriffs office and ask thechief deputy again if he had spoke to the DA... this time he says yes he called me last night and i got your permit. I then told him I would not sign that letter that they had typed up and I had typed my own. He took my letter and didnt even read maybe a few ords and said sign it and ill take it to the sheriff and have him sign it... I was thinking wow really the DA must havetold him something... So I sign it and he goes to get the sheriff to sign it and come back not even 30 seconds later and I see where the sheriff had just signed with his initials. As I am looking at itI said hey its not signedwhats this oh its signed that the sheriffs initials and i ask could he have not signed it??? Its hard to make that out...He says thats how he signs papers and he called out the letters to me andI said and that good enough he said yes....So the chief deputy ask a lady at the counter to make a copy and he gave me my permit and the letter the sheriff signed.

    So all is good or soI think till the night at captain ds Sept. 14, 2008

    Thats when all this other stuff happen with the takeing of my weapon and permit even after me trying to show the LEOall my paper and even the agreement that the sheriff signed along with the AGs opinion and the other stuff that the DA told me to keep in my vehicle that even had the DAs name and Phone number.

    The LEO only looked at number one of my agreement and said badge what badge I showed him the one around my neck amd he laughs and says bounty hunter huh and I say fugitive recovery agent ( I know same thing but thats not what badge said). He didnt want to look at anything else or hear anythingI had to say and just said he wasnt going to argue with me and to prove his point he was keeping my weapon and permit. I triedtelling him I wasnt tring to argue just trying to explain to him what papers I had and to please not take my weapon and to just please look at everything. Thats when he makes the comment about me coming in there with tee-shirt and shorts and flipflops and I said back to him I didnt know or was unaware of a dress code to carry a firarm. ( I was not dressed like a bum they were all summer wear Hilfiger khaki dress shorts, fossil flip flops).

    This is getting to long for me guys but you know asI stated here before I got my weapon back 3 days later minus 2 bullets but no permit and was not chargedwith anything and not arrested its like nothing happen except they took my permit

    This went from its illegal, to we have to find out what the law is, to now well its alarming the public and you cant have your permit back butyou can have you weapon and ocw...

    And to pull my permit the first time a little over 4 hours after faxing them the paper work on ocw that they didnt want to look at

    Then finding out from the Da that OCW is legal and they give my permit backplus an agreement... only to revoke after a LEO in my town takes it from me telling me its illegalto ocw and saying now Im alarming the public.

    Guys I dont know whats more alarming...How long this post is or the way I was treated lol....I am sorry for the length of this but without every detail and almost every word that has been done or said its hard to understand how this all went down. And after seeing the truth and the facts please tell me what or where I went wrong or gave a reason for my permit to be revoked

    Thanks for listening and reading guysyou are my (B.I.A)

  8. #8
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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    Well. Obviously the Chief can't take the permit unless requested by the Sheriff. It's not in his domain, regardless of OC or not.

    Some other questions to ask would be, if someone can be stopped and searched for OCing, absent of anything else.

    Or of OC can be 'disorderly conduct' in and of itself.
    I have read some where that the mere fact of someone haveing a gun isnt a reason to stop them or question them unless they have (R.A.S) reasonable articulate suspicion....

    If oc is legal then how can it be 'disorderly conduct' unless youtake it outbrandish it

    Well I read a case on the net where a older man cam up to 3 cops and told them he seen a man with a gun and the cops had the older man point him out and the cops go to him and start talking to him and search him and they do find a gun. The serial numbers had been removed and the guy was a felon they arrested him.

    Well the attorney for the felon said it was illegal search and seziure as the cops had no R.A.S for stopping him that even though someone had told the 3 cops the guy had a gun the mere fact of haveing a gun was no reason to stop anyone unless a crime was being commited, fixing to be commited or had already been commited. And just because someone had told the officers that the man had a gun there was no law being broken...

    The older man while in court to testify said he had seen another man give thegun to the man he had pointed out to the police and when ask if he told the cops that he had seen the man give a gun to this man he said no all he said was he seen a man with a gun.

    Now just by the way the old man reported to the cops that he seen a man with a gun and not that he had seen a man give another man a gun made all the difference in this case... regardless of the serial numbers being removed and the guy being a felon he was let go.

    The reason the judge gave was because the cops didnt not have R.A.S. and since the older man did not tell the cops about how he knew the guy had a gun nor was he asked by the cops how he knewthe manhad a gun but just that he had one...This gave the cops no reason to stop him. Although now in court the man says he seen a man give the other man the gun that was no relayed to the cops prior to them stopping the man and searching..

    I thought that was a weird case although I see the point. I still think since the serial numbers were gone and the guy was a felon they still should have been able to lock him up or charge him with something but they couldntand all because of R.A.S

    I will try and find this story again

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